Flasher trouble 6v WW relay

[anthracitedub]

I have a really nice survivor 62 Beetle. When I first got it it was 6 V 40 horse and everything worked. I drove it for about a year like that and ultimately put a 1600 with 12V single wire alternator in it. Fast forward 20 years and I decided to rebuild and clean up that ole 40 and put it all back the way it was.

I ordered all new bulbs and flasher relay from Wolfsburg West along with a bunch of other parts like seals and mounts.... just making sure to do a good job.

I got a 6v starter and an optima red top plus a new fuse box... my original was holding on, but was cracking with age.

I rebuilt two 6v generators and have collected a few regulators along the way.

I have been reading all the threads about flasher/starter/ lighting issues with 6v cars and charging issues as well.

So I have cleaned and polished EVERY single wiring connector on the whole car! I promise😊. I’ve been dealing with this issue for over a month, working on it whenever I get a free day or a few hours here and there.

The issue is the WW relay... it only buzzes and makes Morse code sounds when I try to signal. It will sit there and buzz until I remove a bulb from any socket and then the other single bulb will flash nicely. While doing so, I’ll put the bulb back into the socket and I’ll have a pair of flashing indicators.

Soon as I turn it off and back on.... nothing but buzzing relay. Sometimes it will buzz for a few seconds and start working and it’s wonderful. Nice timing of the flash and the brightest indicators I’ve ever seen on a VW.

Everything on this car works much better than it ever did as a 12v car, starter whirls over amazingly fast, lights are so bright... it’s really unbelievable.

Now, all of these tests are done with the car not running because when the car runs there is a whole different set of issues!

Just to confirm, I have 6.25 volts up to the H/L switch and 6.24 on the other side of the fuse that feeds the relay.

I can put my ole German van style relay in place and it works with the same awesome bright lights but it is dangerously slow... real slow😔

I even bought another relay from WW plus four new bulbs because they sent me 21 watt bulbs even though the invoice says 18 w. No big deal, cheap enough.

Get my new relay and bulbs, they’re 21 watt and the invoice says 18.
Changed the bulbs and relay, with fingers crossed..... and nothing, just buzzing like a swarm of bees. I fiddled with that set up for a little and could never get one single flash from it.

I put the older(new) WW relay back on and back to the original scenario.

I can put the can style on again and just super slow relay.

The next trick is when the car is running.... they won’t work at all! Nothing! But you can hear the relay clicking and clacking the whole time the car runs.

During testing of the Generator, the moment I touch my meters ground to anywhere on the back of the car, the digital reading goes haywire...never seen anything like it.

I discovered if I lengthen my jumpers, that issue went away.... just don’t know if I’m picking up some electrical noise and this is somehow not letting the signals work when the car runs.

I even changed out gen/reg and it still has the noise mystery and the signals still don’t work when the engine runs.... even the German relay acts funky with the car running... slower and intermittent blinking.

Charging system works, I began with polarizing and it passed the test of kicking out about 7.5 volts when revving up a few rpms.

I assure you, I have cleaned everything to a brilliant shine, ground straps, terminals, even pulled the wires out of the plastic t blocks and cleaned those.
I even ran a ground wire from the battery up to the relay, I’ve added jumper grounds from the light assemblies...

I’ve been battling this for some time now and was trying to avoid bringing the issue here, but I’m out of ideas.

I really wanted to put this car back closer to original because it is such a nice survivor and nowadays it’s not a daily. I was hoping to drive around a bit before winter sets in... that 40 purrs sooo nice and the car is sorted wonderfully except for the signals... bummer for sure. Today, I plan on taking the signal lever apart and cleaning those contacts... I did spray it with some contact cleaner earlier on during the T/S phase of this journey.

[VOLKSWAGNUT]

Is this the flasher?

https://www.wolfsburgwest.com/cart/DetailsList.cfm?ID=111953185BWW

Is the flasher mounted and grounded properly?

Your symptoms seem to indicate a ground issue.
The sheet metal is the largest circuit.. the ground.. and can sometimes be lost and problematic.
Electronic flashers are very sensitive to ground issues.

Since the symptoms change when the car is running seems to indicate voltage issues as well.

Could it be.. the wattage of the bulbs is too large for the flasher?
What is the wattage rating of the flasher?


.
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aka Ken {o\!/o}
Its your vehicle- stop askin' for approval-do what YOU like for cryin' out loud
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Its about the going not the showing
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[wayne1230cars]

[anthracitedub]

Yep that’s the flasher. I have it grounded to the - terminal on the relay. Is that the correct ground? I have a wire from the negative spade on the relay to the body... it has continuity to ground. I once ran a ground straight from the battery with clips.... no go😔
That metal tab on the WW relay just snaps into the plastic body... no tie to ground.
I’m sure it’s gotta be something stupid simple... ya know how sometimes you go down the rabbit hole?

[anthracitedub]

Here is my relay...

It comes with a double spade connector attached to the L spade. Am I correct in placing my switch wire and my dash indicator wire on this? And then power to the + spade, ground the - spade to chassis? Sounds right to me.

[Eric&Barb]

Each signal bulb grounds to the bulb holder.

Each bulb holder has to ground. Fronts to the fender and the rears to the taillight housing and then the fender.

Each fender has to ground to the body.

New paint or old rust can cause grounding problem. Each needs the screw/bolt/mounting area to be cleaned to bare metal and use a grease like dielectric grease. Also all positive connections will keep the oxidation away for much longer if you use dielectric grease on them.

Do get stock type electrical connectors, not the cheap junk ones that will fail all too soon type that you have on the regulator.

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=338938
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[VOLKSWAGNUT]

I see a 14V part inside a 6 volt case?? Im sure thats what the circuit board is for


Do the oil pressure and generator lights operate properly?

Reason I ask.. ALL the indicator lights work semi backwards of normal thought..

Bulb case is power while each indicator terminal is indicator light ground..

Have you tried not attaching the speedometer turn indicator circuit ?

It may be some back feeding through the indicator circuit causing the issue.. as it would be supplying voltage to the flasher "L" terminal through the bulb filament when the key is turned on and then grounding when the turn is activated..
May also explain the engine running changing symptoms.. as the voltage climbs.



As a test.. first simply disconnect the speedo indicator bottom power terminal
If that cures the issue.. something is a miss.
Are ANY LEDS in use any where?

Second test.... simply omit the turn signal switch and go direct.

Jumper power right off the accessory battery power fuse (#8 ) to the +
Ground to -
Jumper each side turns (at the disconnected turn switch) directly to the L one at a time..
They should flash key off, on or running.. if not.. its a flasher issue.. if they flash .. car has voltage drops or loss of ground.. or electrical interference wacking out the E flasher.

.
_________________
aka Ken {o\!/o}
Its your vehicle- stop askin' for approval-do what YOU like for cryin' out loud
Better to roll em' how you want and wear em' out-than lettin' em' rot out
Its about the going not the showing
Rebuilt to drive not decorate
WANTED: Local Eatin' Joints, Triple D for TheSamba contributions here http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=570510
Search "VOLKSWAGNUT" on YouTube since you cant watch a "certain" BELT change video round here
Usually and often edited

[anthracitedub]

Well, first off... the charging system and my oil pressure lights turn off when I start the engine. I will try the tests that Volkswagnut mentioned here soon.

I am very confident that I have good grounds throughout the car. I even have jumpers from the bulb holders on all of the turn signals just as a redundancy... Installed those yesterday and didn’t make a difference. I made sure that I had continuity on my grounding points.

What I did just discover is the fuse box. I had put a WW replacement in a while back when the car was 12v. It’s still shines and is new looking. I never did the solder job on those fuse holder contacts.

So with the key on, the signal activated and the newest relay buzzing away relentlessly... I checked the fuses, the main fuse that supplies all the business was warm. There was very little tension holding the fuse. I removed the fuse and pinched the tabs together for a better bite and the never worked before relay buzzed and then started to work.

I switched from L to R and it would buzz for a few seconds and begin to work.

So it looks like I’ll be soldering those points of contact on that box soon.

I still want to look into that test where I can jump the indicator switch and rule that out... not looking forward to opening the switch and messing with all those small parts.

I’ll look into replacing the very few crimp on style connectors on the car....I’ve only got about 5 on the entire car.

[VOLKSWAGNUT]

Ahhh the plot thickens..

Heat = resistance..

It has voltage drops at the fuse block....

Solder the fuse block tabs.. and it will most like cure the problem.

6 volts and voltage drops don't bode well ... hence why most convert to 12 volts.

Volts is the pressure in the electrical world... more electrical pressure over comes and hides slight resistance.

.
_________________
aka Ken {o\!/o}
Its your vehicle- stop askin' for approval-do what YOU like for cryin' out loud
Better to roll em' how you want and wear em' out-than lettin' em' rot out
Its about the going not the showing
Rebuilt to drive not decorate
WANTED: Local Eatin' Joints, Triple D for TheSamba contributions here http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=570510
Search "VOLKSWAGNUT" on YouTube since you cant watch a "certain" BELT change video round here
Usually and often edited

[anthracitedub]

Yes... I’m having to go above and beyond on every single point of contact on this whole system... it’s relentless 👹. I bet I have 20-30 hours on just cleaning and trouble shooting.

[anthracitedub]

Ok... it gets better. I disconnected with key on, the supply from fuse box to the speedo/cluster to see if there was some weird stuff going on there and there is.

The relay began to actuate with no indicators flashing! So I cleaned all 3 bulb holders, sockets and spades... they were clean already, but now they shine. The center bulb socket did have a little oxidation on it so I thought maybe I got it this time....nope, same thing.... pull the power to the housing and the relay begins to cycle, no signal lights...

I measured voltage coming out of the L spade from the relay and it measures
10 volts! I hooked up the other relay and it measures 9 volts. I put my German
Can relay on, it measures battery voltage at around 6.2v

Some how this relay is back feeding extra voltage? This is some interesting stuff🧐

Right now, the German can relay is on and it actually works very good.... fires right up and flashes faster now. It seems all my extra hell ive been through with additional cleaning in the instrument cluster made the German relay work good.

I still haven’t started the car up for a test drive, it’s getting late, dark and cold.
Might have a chance to do it tomorrow.

I’ve never found as much weird shit on a VW electrical system in my life... especially being that this one is in pretty good shape/original.

So I’m gonna stick with the OG relay until I get around to soldering the fuse box and getting the indicator switch cleaned up.... geez it’s tiring🤨

[VOLKSWAGNUT]

For the record.....I despise Electronic flashers .

Good ole electro mechanical relay flashers for me.

The stepped up voltage on the open L terminal is from the internal signal circuit waiting to be pulled low when activated by a turn switch....

The circuit board inside are modified to use common 12 parts ...on a 6 volt system..

Its Voodoo....

L terminal usually is designated as Load...

So..are you stating the relay clicks and cycled without any turn load or circuit connected to L??

If so....try..
+ to power
- to turn switch
L to speedo indicator

If no go..try
+ to power
- to turn switch and speedo indicator
Nothing on L

.
_________________
aka Ken {o\!/o}
Its your vehicle- stop askin' for approval-do what YOU like for cryin' out loud
Better to roll em' how you want and wear em' out-than lettin' em' rot out
Its about the going not the showing
Rebuilt to drive not decorate
WANTED: Local Eatin' Joints, Triple D for TheSamba contributions here http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=570510
Search "VOLKSWAGNUT" on YouTube since you cant watch a "certain" BELT change video round here
Usually and often edited

[Zwitterkafer]

Pulling the power wire from the speedo 3-bulb holder may not be a good diagnostic test. As you saw, your flasher output side can then pick up a path to ground through two speedo bulb filaments in series: the turn indicator bulb and the oil pressure indicator bulb, in turn grounded at the oil pressure switch. This led to buzzing even though the turn signal switch was not used.

Instead, simply remove the speedo turn signal bulb from the circuit. Either disconnect it at the flasher, or remove the bulb and put the bulb holder back in. If this fixes all the weird behavior, the reason would be this: The factory circuit uses a flasher with a terminal K or KBL. This terminal provides a PULSED GROUND connection to the speedo bulb; the other side of which is +6 volts. This is NOT the same thing as the typical output terminal that provides a pulsed 0-6 volts.

If your stock flasher is slow or stalls, clean the turn signal switch contacts, and if so equipped, try adjusting your flasher speed with a jewelers screwdriver through the small hole in the bottom.
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[anthracitedub]

Thanks Zwitterkafer, that explanation makes sense to me as to why it’s back feeding when I pull power from the cluster bank. It’s too bad I bought two of those relays from WW, they don’t seem to fit/work for my application.

With all of the scrubbing and cleaning of the entire wire loom connectors the original German relay works great now! My plan is to locate a couple of spares to have (I have another 6v car) on hand and also replace the WW fuse box with a good German one as well, the one I have just seems cheaply made.

Today I will get a chance to start the car and see if it works while running... before when it was running the signals wouldn’t work at all. The WW relay would just chatter while driving down the road. I’m hoping the OG relay will maintain a decent pulse rate in driving conditions.

There doesn’t seem to be an adjustment screw on the can, my old 12v Unit has one though😊

[rcroane]

I wouldn’t give up on the WW flasher. Once you figure out the gremlin, they are a huge improvement over the tin can flasher. Especially when combined with LED tail/brake lights (instant on and brighter).

Can you post some pics of your WW flasher when wired in the car. I can compare it to mine just to see if we’ve done anything differently. I’m not home right now, but I especially want to check how I grounded mine.
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[flyboy161]

For what it’s worth, you seem very electrically savvy and I’m not trying to insult anyone’s intelligence here, but voltage drop tests are only effective when the circuit is “doing its work”. Headlights on, or brake lights on, that sort of thing. Turn signals are difficult to get voltage drop tests accomplished with a meter with a digital multimeter because of refresh rate of the display on the meter.

You are correct in that “-“ is chassis ground for the flasher. “+” goes to the fuse block “L” goes to switch and dash indicator light”.
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[EVfun]

[anthracitedub]

I’m away from the car for most of today, family stuff. But I know that I’ve tried most combinations of unplugging this and that... I’ve been fiddling with this for over a month. I think that fuse box is likely part of the problem now and it was also haunted by poor grounds, that’s what I spent almost all of my focus on.

I didn’t realize how cheesy that fuse box is, I just knew that it was new and didn’t dig too deep with it. Yesterday while I was unplugging and plugging stuff in, the spade going out to one of the rear running lights snapped off... one little cold spot weld was all that held it. I was able to correct it with one of those 2 in 1 spade connectors.

Im kinda stuck on leaving the old can relay in there now, that sound coming from it is satisfying as well. My 57 Ghia has the same one (with screw terminals) and a dirty, unkept wiring harness... everything works perfect.

I’m eager to see how the car does while running.... I’m hoping that feedback from the WW relay is what was causing my lack of indicators while the engine was running, and maybe that’s why I had that electric noise coming from ground
when I attempted to hook my meter up to check the charging system.

We’ll see😐. I hope I get a chance to stretch the legs on that 40 before the weather turns to shit for 5 months.

[Eric&Barb]

[anthracitedub]

Yeah it’s the WW repop.... I don’t think I’ll mess with it... just gonna get a decent OE box.