Flasher trouble 6v WW relay

[garagebandking41]

Did you ever resolve the issue with the WW flasher?

It sounds like I have a similar problem. The flasher goes crazy when the engine is on and I can hear it ticking away very fast. Thats without me even touching the stalk. With the engine off, it sort of behaves normally.

I'm going bald scratching my head on this one.

[anthracitedub]

It sounds like your experience is exactly what I went through. I spent some more time chasing this gremlin and cleaning basically all of the same things again, adding grounds cleaning,praying, cussing.... nothing worked. I ended up using my NOS hella switch that blinks kinda slow at idle. What I think I figured out is there is a higher voltage coming back out of the switch, the middle terminal L measures 10+ volts and feeds it back into the speedo housing. I tried unplugging the blinker warning light and it doesn’t work at all.... I gave up on the Wolfsburg relays, they’re junk...even bought two of them just to check. The past weekend I finally got to put some miles on the new 40 and it was amazing, everything worked great and the car ran beautiful.... just for shits I put the WW relay back in and it still just clattered and buzzed. I don’t know why they work for some and not for other, my wiring/electrical is just this side of perfect. My advice would be to acquire the basic old school electo- mechanical relay. I’m certain there is another member here who was experiencing similar problems too, he didn’t spend 3 or 4 weekends messing with it like I did and just went back to the old style relay.

[garagebandking41]

Thanks for the reply.

I tried all last night similar things. I didn't measure a high voltage like you did, the generator is putting out 7.5ish volts while running and that's it. I did read in a different automotive forum that it is due to the inductive spike from the coil seeing as that line probably runs right next to the power line in the loom. I too have near perfect and original wiring in my '57 that I spent days cleaning and grounding properly.

I think it must be the WW and modern flashers are very sensitive to the noise coming from the spark and freak out. My multimeter just can't pick up the spike and I don't have an oscilloscope. Unplugging the pilot light did nothing to my flasher and neither did moving the ground. I bet if I powered it with a separate 6V source it'd work but I think its easier to go with an OG mechanical relay at this point and forget it.

Thank you again for the reply!

[anthracitedub]

I went as far as changing generators, regulators, coils, and complete distributors... there is certainly an inductive principal taking place coming out of the L terminal of the relay, up to 10 volts... my OE relay voltage matched the system voltage. I may try the WW relay in my other 6v car just for science😉

[garagebandking41]

You're a beast!

I am interested in seeing what the source is. Especially, since it appears we both have the same problem, but not enough people on this forum seem to share it. The only thing I can think of considering how many things you have already tried is placing a reverse bias diode between the negative side and positive side of the relay to try and snub the spike. I'm not sure if you could do that on the ignition coil side, but maybe. I'm very amateur with electronics.

Of course that wouldn't be very original and I wouldn't want to daily drive that setup up, but it could solve the problem.

For now I'll try and get an NOS 6V Flasher relay like a 181 signal stat or a 535. There are a bunch of them out there.

[anthracitedub]

The only thing I haven’t set down and done is solder the joints on the WW replacement fuse box. I haven’t decided if it’s worth the time, trying to heat up those tabs without hurting the flimsy plastic enclosure. But I am gonna have my eyes open for a decent fuse box in the near future. I can drive the car a little now, but winter will be here soon. I’ll take on the fuse box when the car is hibernating.

[ashman40]

Can I ask about how either of you have wired the flasher relay? When I look at the wiring diagrams for 6v Beetles (eg '62-'65) I see the flasher relay depicted (J1) only has two terminals and doesn't explicitly indicate they are grounded (by either a ground symbol or a #31 terminal... neither are shown).

I see the black/green/white wire bringing ignition switched power from the fuse box to the relay input (49/+). Then another black/green/white wire connecting the output (49a/L) terminal to the turn signal switch INPUT. The blue wire to the turn indicator lamp in the speedometer is also connected to the 49a/L output terminal of the flasher relay.
Many flasher relays do not need a dedicated ground. They operate completely on current flowing thru the relay. This makes me think that the WW relay should be installed with the (-) terminal left unused.

Have either of you tried wiring the WW flasher relay using JUST the + (input) and L (output) terminals to directly replace the original VW relay, leaving the "-" terminal unconnected? I suspect if the WW relay is a compatible 6v flasher relay it does NOT need the (-) terminal connected at all.

What also bothers me is that not all flasher relays w/ the +, L and - terminal numbering are compatible with the VW wiring. The give away is they work fine when the turn indicator lamp is left disconnected, but don't work properly when the turn indicator lamp is connected to the L terminal.
Without the indicator lamp the flasher relay setup if very simple... when a path opens from the L terminal to ground (turn signal switch ON) the relay outputs a pulsing voltage out the L terminal. When the path closes (turn signal switch OFF) it stops.
Connecting the turn indicator complicates the circuit as the L terminal will see a positive voltage while the ignition is ON. While this is normal for VW turn signal circuits it can be unusual for flasher relays not designed to work with this arrangement. This positive voltage trying to enter the OUTPUT terminal (L) causes the relay to "freak out" if it was not designed for this.


I can't see the terminal numbers on the Hella flasher relay pictured above but I found this pic in the gallery of a Hella 6v flasher relay. Does your Hella relay have the same terminal numbers?

49 = 12v INPUT from fuse box
49a = flashing OUTPUT to the turn signal switch (and possibly dash indicator lamp)
KPC = dedicated indicator lamp terminal?

How have you connected your blue turn indicator wire when you use this relay? Is it connected to the KPC terminal or to the 49a terminal as shown in the VW wiring diagram? Have your tried connecting it to both terminals? The way the blue turn indicator lamp wire works... the turn signal switch offers the blue wire a path to ground in between the pulsing of the flasher relay. This is why the indicator lamp flashes OPPOSITE the corner lamps.
Where have you connected the blue wire when you use the WW relay? It belongs on the L terminal.

As a test, disconnect the flasher relay and tie the two black/green/white wires together (do not let this junction touch any metal/ground). Also, disconnect the turn indicator at the speedometer. This arrangement bypasses the flasher relay completely and will power the corner lamps directly from the fuse. Turn the ignition switch ON and move the turn signal lever to the L or R position while you observe the corner lamps. Each side should turn ON but not blink. Each lamp should be the same brightness as all the others (assuming they are all the same wattage). If you find one bulb brighter/dimmer than the rest you have a wiring issue with that bulb. This test confirms the switch and wiring are all fine. Try this with the engine running as well. It should operate the same (the lights might be slightly brighter).
If all your corner lights work as expected while the flasher relay is bypassed, all your weird behavior is likely due to the flasher relay.
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AshMan40
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'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!}

[rcroane]

I'm really struggling to believe the WW flasher is "junk". Assuming you have terminal 49 on the flasher going to the fuse block, terminal 49A going to the turn signal lever and the indicator lamp, and terminal 31 going to a good ground....it should work. Mine is grounded using the bolt that attaches the relay to the bracket that holds the relay (the bracket is attached to the body).

Is this how you have yours wired? Where is your ground wire attached? Have you tried attaching like I have mine?
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'65 Sunroof Bug

[anthracitedub]

I’ve tried everything... with no ground the WW relay only does one thing.... extract 14.95$ from my bank account and wastes my precious driving time.

[rcroane]

It would be interesting if there was someone near you who has a working one installed that could swap yours in just to confirm. Heck, I'll do it if you want to send it to me (I know....more $).
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'65 Sunroof Bug

[anthracitedub]

I’ve got a 57 ghia that’s 6volt and completely original wiring, but the electrical is different so it may not be a good test. It would be cool to see if it would work on another car. I still have hope for it.... I’ve got two of them in my stash... I might send you one in the name of science😁

[rcroane]

I'm happy to give it a try. PM me if you want my address.
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'65 Sunroof Bug

[Bug-nut]

This is probably unrelated, but I’ll go ahead and throw it out there. I’ve a stock 6v 1959 Beetle. A few years back I replaced the stock flasher with the WW one because the Hella unit wouldn’t flash when the car was idling due to low power (it would just stick the blinker light on). The WW one worked perfectly. Then later my regulator died. I replaced it with an electronic one built by a guy out in California and I installed it inside my original housing (this was before you could buy the stock looking electronic 6v regulator that just came out recently). The WW flasher still worked fine, but when you would shut the car off, you could hear the flasher clicking furiously until the engine completely stopped rotating. The lights would not blink or anything, just very rapid clicking that slowed down as the engine rotation slowed down. A year or so later the regulator overheated and died and I replaced it with a stock style coil based regulator and the clicking problem went away. I’m convinced it was some kind of electronic interference or feedback that was causing it.
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1959 Fjord Blue Volkswagen Beetle
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6...highlight=

1962 Austin-Healey Sprite

[EVfun]

I have the old bakelite unit in my 6v Bug. Most of the time when they fail they don't completely and can be used as 2 wire flashers. You remove the ground wire and connect the dash light to the same terminal that goes to the turn signal switch. No audiable click but signals and dash lamp work fine.

It almost sounds as if the 6v version was a bad redesign of a 12v solid state flasher. It often takes more than swapping a relay and a few resistors.
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[anthracitedub]

I too feel like it’s a bad design and some how picks up electrical noise. Probably on some cars it’s fine,’others not. That’s why I changed the gen/reg/coil and distributor. I used known parts that were good to no avail.

I know there is electrical noise coming from the engine because my meter picks it up by simply being close to the running engine... it did it with both set ups (gen/reg) swapped. It still does it even while everything is working great with the OE flasher installed.

The only thing I can see is the plug wires could be doing it... they’re Bosch btw and they are in good shape.

Also, I asked Santa to bring me one of those new solid state regulators because my regulator stash is running low and I’m also wanting to try it out...

[VOLKSWAGNUT]

It's not uncommon for digital meters ( or high quality analog) to detect RF and voltage in the "air" from the magnetic fields created.

Happens anywhere .. walk around your home start turning things on and off you'll see.

Think those Bosch wires are bad...try getting close to solid core spark plug cables ....you know. .the kind you used to hear come through the radio .... digital meters go nuts..


With my Volksrod running near the garage..the garage door remote is ...inoperable... shut the engine off and the door immediately operates fine.

It's why you can't use solid plug wires with an inductive distributor ignitor...just too many magnetic fields and induction present to operate properly

.
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aka Ken {o\!/o}
Its your vehicle- stop askin' for approval-do what YOU like for cryin' out loud
Better to roll em' how you want and wear em' out-than lettin' em' rot out
Its about the going not the showing
Rebuilt to drive not decorate
WANTED: Local Eatin' Joints, Triple D for TheSamba contributions here http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=570510
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Usually and often edited

[Eric&Barb]

[anthracitedub]

Thanks for the tips on the wiring. I do have it wrapped right where it lays behind the coil and fan shroud with a length of that Velcro tape (we used it to wrap wiring on industrial robots) it provides a nice “cocoon” for those wires to nestle in. Also, I have a nice, never been bent, vacuum line that will go on soon as I sort smaller details through out this whole car.

This is the one I have for it. I’ve seen a few like this in the past. This one came off a really original 40 horse that I have from a 62. #7148163

[Eric&Barb]

That type the fuel line is supposed to pass thru the loop of the vacuum line. Either way the flex lines for those look a bit long.
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In Stereo, Where Available!

[anthracitedub]

Yeah, they are.... I’ll get’em dialed in at a later date.