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khughes
Samba Member
Joined: July 13, 2013
Posts: 747
Location: Phoenix AZ
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 Posted: Thu Dec 05, 2019 6:38 pm Post subject: Re: New Westy owner here. Carburetor issue |
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| chompy wrote: |
| khughes wrote: |
| Oh yeah, O2 sensor as well. |
That depends on if it's federal or california. I would personally look for the federal version if possible. Call around to the places that do engine conversions. They will usually have a full setup on hand. Avery air cooled auto parts is another place. |
Even here in AZ, they will have a very hard time passing emissions testing without an O2 sensor. The O2 systems, IMO, are clearly superior to open-loop only systems. Even factoring in how primitive the early closed-loop algorithms were. YMMV
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'86 Westy FAS GenV Turbo (Marvin) |
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chompy
Samba Member
Joined: August 12, 2014
Posts: 400
Location: Cascade Locks
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| Posted: Thu Dec 05, 2019 6:26 pm Post subject: Re: New Westy owner here. Carburetor issue |
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| khughes wrote: |
| Oh yeah, O2 sensor as well. |
That depends on if it's federal or california. I would personally look for the federal version if possible. Call around to the places that do engine conversions. They will usually have a full setup on hand. Avery air cooled auto parts is another place.
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'81 Westfalia Subaru EJ22
Manual Transmission |
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khughes
Samba Member
Joined: July 13, 2013
Posts: 747
Location: Phoenix AZ
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| Posted: Thu Dec 05, 2019 2:00 pm Post subject: Re: New Westy owner here. Carburetor issue |
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Oh yeah, O2 sensor as well.
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'86 Westy FAS GenV Turbo (Marvin) |
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khughes
Samba Member
Joined: July 13, 2013
Posts: 747
Location: Phoenix AZ
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| Posted: Thu Dec 05, 2019 1:59 pm Post subject: Re: New Westy owner here. Carburetor issue |
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| hiwesty wrote: |
| 16CVs wrote: |
Cut your loses and find a Factory FI system and put it back on. You'll spend more money and frustration trying to get that or any Carb working properly.
Learn what you are supposed to have and read up on it and scour the Classifieds and swap it back to injection.
It will then start with the crack of a key and idle properly and be much cleaner burning.
I grew up with Carbs, my dad was always tweaking them. There's no tweaking an FI system once all the parts are installed and working properly.
This would probably set you back about a grand , but it will give you a better driving van.
Just my .02
Stacy |
Stacy, from another thread i've compiled a list of all the parts i'll need to convert. CAn you tell me if i missed anything?
Temp Sender 2
Double Relay
4 Fuel injectors
Air flow meter
Throttle body
thermotime switch
cold start valve
auxiliary air regulator
full throttle enrichment switch |
Air plenum and intake runners
Air cleaner
fuel pressure regulator
fuel pump (unless the stock pump is still used)
ECU for EFI unless yours is just bypassed
Wiring harness
Fuel injector manifolds
that's off the top of my head, but it's been a couple+ decades since I had one of these. When I went back to FI on mine I bought a banged up beater van and just did a straight across swap and sold the beater with the carb setup. Just one way to go...
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'86 Westy FAS GenV Turbo (Marvin) |
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hiwesty
Samba Member
Joined: December 04, 2019
Posts: 7
Location: Florida
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| Posted: Thu Dec 05, 2019 12:07 pm Post subject: Re: New Westy owner here. Carburetor issue |
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| 16CVs wrote: |
Cut your loses and find a Factory FI system and put it back on. You'll spend more money and frustration trying to get that or any Carb working properly.
Learn what you are supposed to have and read up on it and scour the Classifieds and swap it back to injection.
It will then start with the crack of a key and idle properly and be much cleaner burning.
I grew up with Carbs, my dad was always tweaking them. There's no tweaking an FI system once all the parts are installed and working properly.
This would probably set you back about a grand , but it will give you a better driving van.
Just my .02
Stacy |
Stacy, from another thread i've compiled a list of all the parts i'll need to convert. CAn you tell me if i missed anything?
Temp Sender 2
Double Relay
4 Fuel injectors
Air flow meter
Throttle body
thermotime switch
cold start valve
auxiliary air regulator
full throttle enrichment switch |
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jlrftype7
Samba Member
Joined: July 24, 2018
Posts: 3577
Location: Chicago
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| Posted: Thu Dec 05, 2019 9:51 am Post subject: Re: New Westy owner here. Carburetor issue |
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| khughes wrote: |
| Wildthings wrote: |
| khughes wrote: |
| Abscate wrote: |
| khughes wrote: |
| Wildthings wrote: |
| I am going to guess that you experienced carburetor icing. |
In Florida?? |
Yep. Panhandle can dip into the 30s, perfect for carb icing |
That's not Florida, that's Dixie  |
Carburetor icing can happen well above freezing if the humidity is right, 70°F is not unheard of.
https://www.rainierflightservice.com/blog/carburetor-ice/ |
I'll remember that next time i'm in a full power Westy climb... 
Yes, it can happen, but since in my 65 years I have yet to see one instance of carb icing in a ground vehicle, I'd bet that's not it. I've driven carburetor cars in climates from Phx to Minneapolis - in the winter - and never once encountered it. I'd look at the more likely stuff first.  |
Oh, you haven't lived with an Air Cooled VW until the dreaded icing hits on your Carb and Manifold...
Granted, mine was a 1600 single port with clogged heatriser tube...
I removed the Manifold, took it into work, heated it up, ran all manner of liquids through it, ran wire/cable with a drill through it, and finally got enough air flow testing it to put the Manifold back onto the vehicle.
Happened in Fall, a few months after I had bought the '68 Camper. Still remember seeing all the ice at the top of the Manifold, right under the Solex Carb... 
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'68 Westy- my first VW and vehicle/Bus- long gone.- sold it to a traveling Swiss couple....
'67 Type 3 Fastback, my 2nd car- gone
'69 Semi-Auto Stick Shift Beetle-gone
2017 MINI Coopers, our current DDs
‘84 Tin Top - Hilga....Auto |
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mikemtnbike
Samba Member
Joined: March 26, 2015
Posts: 2795
Location: North Carolina
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| Posted: Thu Dec 05, 2019 9:44 am Post subject: Re: New Westy owner here. Carburetor issue |
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| 16CVs wrote: |
Cut your loses and find a Factory FI system and put it back on. You'll spend more money and frustration trying to get that or any Carb working properly.
Learn what you are supposed to have and read up on it and scour the Classifieds and swap it back to injection.
It will then start with the crack of a key and idle properly and be much cleaner burning.
I grew up with Carbs, my dad was always tweaking them. There's no tweaking an FI system once all the parts are installed and working properly.
This would probably set you back about a grand , but it will give you a better driving van.
Just my .02
Stacy |
Make that .04.
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1991 Vanagon GL 2.1 AT Westfauxlia. "Frankie" Totaled  https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=764510&highlight=carnage
1995 Eurovan Camper "Marzivan"
2020 GTI SE manual |
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16CVs 
Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2004
Posts: 4024
Location: Redwood City, California
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| Posted: Thu Dec 05, 2019 9:38 am Post subject: Re: New Westy owner here. Carburetor issue |
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Cut your loses and find a Factory FI system and put it back on. You'll spend more money and frustration trying to get that or any Carb working properly.
Learn what you are supposed to have and read up on it and scour the Classifieds and swap it back to injection.
It will then start with the crack of a key and idle properly and be much cleaner burning.
I grew up with Carbs, my dad was always tweaking them. There's no tweaking an FI system once all the parts are installed and working properly.
This would probably set you back about a grand , but it will give you a better driving van.
Just my .02
Stacy
_________________
1987 Syncro Westfalia Triple knob (bastard)
1989 Syncro Tristar Triple knob "Swedish"
2013 Jetta Hybrid a true "Zwitter"
Samba member # 14980
Call anytime number 650 722 4914 .
Keep Your van running and upkept tastefully for the love of the hobby.
Don't let your van end up in an "abortions" thread. |
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50338
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| Posted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 10:07 pm Post subject: Re: New Westy owner here. Carburetor issue |
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| Without carburetor heat of any kind it can happen over a wide range of conditions, and even with carburetor heat it may commonly occur for a short interval 3-5 minutes or so after a cold start, before the carb heat becomes effective. I have experienced it hundreds of times and have added some form of carb heat to my older rigs to prevent it or at least lessen it. |
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khughes
Samba Member
Joined: July 13, 2013
Posts: 747
Location: Phoenix AZ
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| Posted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 9:30 pm Post subject: Re: New Westy owner here. Carburetor issue |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| khughes wrote: |
| Abscate wrote: |
| khughes wrote: |
| Wildthings wrote: |
| I am going to guess that you experienced carburetor icing. |
In Florida?? |
Yep. Panhandle can dip into the 30s, perfect for carb icing |
That's not Florida, that's Dixie |
Carburetor icing can happen well above freezing if the humidity is right, 70°F is not unheard of.
https://www.rainierflightservice.com/blog/carburetor-ice/ |
I'll remember that next time i'm in a full power Westy climb...
Yes, it can happen, but since in my 65 years I have yet to see one instance of carb icing in a ground vehicle, I'd bet that's not it. I've driven carburetor cars in climates from Phx to Minneapolis - in the winter - and never once encountered it. I'd look at the more likely stuff first.
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'86 Westy FAS GenV Turbo (Marvin) |
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50338
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| Posted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 8:31 pm Post subject: Re: New Westy owner here. Carburetor issue |
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| khughes wrote: |
| Abscate wrote: |
| khughes wrote: |
| Wildthings wrote: |
| I am going to guess that you experienced carburetor icing. |
In Florida?? |
Yep. Panhandle can dip into the 30s, perfect for carb icing |
That's not Florida, that's Dixie |
Carburetor icing can happen well above freezing if the humidity is right, 70°F is not unheard of.
https://www.rainierflightservice.com/blog/carburetor-ice/ |
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hiwesty
Samba Member
Joined: December 04, 2019
Posts: 7
Location: Florida
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| Posted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 8:29 pm Post subject: Re: New Westy owner here. Carburetor issue |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
I am going to guess that you experienced carburetor icing. Without an air preheat stove or a heat riser the carb is going to run icy cold, and in a place like Florida which is known for its high humidity this is going to disrupt the air flow through the primary venturi and across the throttle plate. What you need to do is shut the engine down for a couple of minutes when the symptoms show themselves so heat from the engine can melt the ice.
Adding some kind of system to get hot air to the carb inlet will help. This is the setup I ran for years. It took air off the right heat exchanger and fed it to the air cleaner. I later got all the parts to use the air preheat stove setup VW used on the '72-74 models, it gave a faster warmup still.
You can find all kinds of variations of an air preheat stove to use with a progressive on the Bay Window Forum.
. |
I peaked in the Bay Window Forums and found a lot about my problem. Same symptoms to a T. I spoke with a new mechanic on the phone and he's very familiar with air cooled engines, as well as the heat problem with these engines combined with a single carb. He told me he could set me up. He said he's done hundreds over the years (due to the lack of available FI parts) with this type of setup and said i'd be riding just fine after.
I'm going to check out the classifieds in the meantime and see if i can find fuel injector parts, but if not, i'm going to give this a shot. |
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khughes
Samba Member
Joined: July 13, 2013
Posts: 747
Location: Phoenix AZ
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| Posted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 8:22 pm Post subject: Re: New Westy owner here. Carburetor issue |
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| Abscate wrote: |
| khughes wrote: |
| Wildthings wrote: |
| I am going to guess that you experienced carburetor icing. |
In Florida?? |
Yep. Panhandle can dip into the 30s, perfect for carb icing |
That's not Florida, that's Dixie
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'86 Westy FAS GenV Turbo (Marvin) |
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Abscate
Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014
Posts: 22641
Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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| Posted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 8:18 pm Post subject: Re: New Westy owner here. Carburetor issue |
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| khughes wrote: |
| Wildthings wrote: |
| I am going to guess that you experienced carburetor icing. |
In Florida?? |
Yep. Panhandle can dip into the 30s, perfect for carb icing
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.ssS! |
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khughes
Samba Member
Joined: July 13, 2013
Posts: 747
Location: Phoenix AZ
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| Posted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 7:57 pm Post subject: Re: New Westy owner here. Carburetor issue |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| I am going to guess that you experienced carburetor icing. |
In Florida??
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khughes
Samba Member
Joined: July 13, 2013
Posts: 747
Location: Phoenix AZ
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| Posted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 7:54 pm Post subject: Re: New Westy owner here. Carburetor issue |
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| hiwesty wrote: |
| chompy wrote: |
| You didn't damage the engine so don't worry about that. Those progressive Webers are good on a Toyota but not so great on these engines because of the long runners on the intake. The fuel stops being vapor by the time it hits your engine so they love to run rich. I drove all down the Oregon/California coast with one without troubles, but it wouldn't pass emissions... I loved carbs but eventually bought a used fuel injection system off the classifieds. You may want to do the same or out a mini/mega squirt setup on. |
Thank you. That helps a ton. So i read the notes the mechanic left. "Engine idles, but sputters when throttled out of idle. carburetor needs to be replaced" This is essentially what was happening, but the problem got progressively worse. When I spoke with the owner yesterday, he said if i revved the engine a few times and gave it a few minutes it would be fine. This was to address the alternator light coming on and persisting.
The problem here was the handoff. His office assistant only read me a portion of the assessment and failed to disclose the part I quoted. That was new to me. I do share some of the blame for not reading the paperwork I was given, but I was just excited to get my van back.
Do you mind if i ask what the technical term for mini/mega squirt system is? I've looked around for FI parts but can't find any. Thanks. |
Mega squirt is a standalone fuel injection system - i.e. and add-on system. They can be tuned to be very good, but you'll still be in a one-off situation since they are not that common, and you won't find mechanics out "on the road" that can deal with it. Looking for a FI system from a wreck or rust bucket may be your best long term solution. But, if it's something you want to learn about, and implement, you'll have all brand new parts for a relatively reasonable price, and you'll know how to troubleshoot if needed.
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hiwesty
Samba Member
Joined: December 04, 2019
Posts: 7
Location: Florida
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| Posted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 6:58 pm Post subject: Re: New Westy owner here. Carburetor issue |
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| chompy wrote: |
| You didn't damage the engine so don't worry about that. Those progressive Webers are good on a Toyota but not so great on these engines because of the long runners on the intake. The fuel stops being vapor by the time it hits your engine so they love to run rich. I drove all down the Oregon/California coast with one without troubles, but it wouldn't pass emissions... I loved carbs but eventually bought a used fuel injection system off the classifieds. You may want to do the same or out a mini/mega squirt setup on. |
Thank you. That helps a ton. So i read the notes the mechanic left. "Engine idles, but sputters when throttled out of idle. carburetor needs to be replaced" This is essentially what was happening, but the problem got progressively worse. When I spoke with the owner yesterday, he said if i revved the engine a few times and gave it a few minutes it would be fine. This was to address the alternator light coming on and persisting.
The problem here was the handoff. His office assistant only read me a portion of the assessment and failed to disclose the part I quoted. That was new to me. I do share some of the blame for not reading the paperwork I was given, but I was just excited to get my van back.
Do you mind if i ask what the technical term for mini/mega squirt system is? I've looked around for FI parts but can't find any. Thanks. |
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50338
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| Posted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 6:57 pm Post subject: Re: New Westy owner here. Carburetor issue |
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I am going to guess that you experienced carburetor icing. Without an air preheat stove or a heat riser the carb is going to run icy cold, and in a place like Florida which is known for its high humidity this is going to disrupt the air flow through the primary venturi and across the throttle plate. What you need to do is shut the engine down for a couple of minutes when the symptoms show themselves so heat from the engine can melt the ice.
Adding some kind of system to get hot air to the carb inlet will help. This is the setup I ran for years. It took air off the right heat exchanger and fed it to the air cleaner. I later got all the parts to use the air preheat stove setup VW used on the '72-74 models, it gave a faster warmup still.
You can find all kinds of variations of an air preheat stove to use with a progressive on the Bay Window Forum.
. |
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chompy
Samba Member
Joined: August 12, 2014
Posts: 400
Location: Cascade Locks
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| Posted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 6:40 pm Post subject: Re: New Westy owner here. Carburetor issue |
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You didn't damage the engine so don't worry about that. Those progressive Webers are good on a Toyota but not so great on these engines because of the long runners on the intake. The fuel stops being vapor by the time it hits your engine so they love to run rich. I drove all down the Oregon/California coast with one without troubles, but it wouldn't pass emissions... I loved carbs but eventually bought a used fuel injection system off the classifieds. You may want to do the same or out a mini/mega squirt setup on.
_________________
'81 Westfalia Subaru EJ22
Manual Transmission |
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khughes
Samba Member
Joined: July 13, 2013
Posts: 747
Location: Phoenix AZ
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| Posted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 5:26 pm Post subject: Re: New Westy owner here. Carburetor issue |
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| hiwesty wrote: |
| Yeah, i'm way in over my head. Depending on what the first is going to do, i'll just take it to the second mechanic. They sound much better versed in all of this. I appreciate everyone's input so far. Jesus this is nauseating. |
What you need is to find an old crusty dude that grew up with carbs and knows how to rebuild, jet properly and adjust them. But they/we're getting rare... 
Just recognize though that unless it's an imported van that was originally carbureted (yours is not stock though) the engine is designed for fuel injection, and will never run "right" on a carb setup. They can run OK though. Parts and experience though are hard to find for them.
Good luck!
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