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1Z TDI Westy - Build Thread
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valvecovergasket
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2020 10:18 am    Post subject: Re: 1Z TDI Westy - Build Thread Reply with quote

winter project list, probably around the new year, will be a new trans for this thing.
i think thats the last bit left to really make it an easy long trip driver.

the current gearing limits the comfortable speed to ~60mph as youre right below 3000rpm at that point with the new tires. it has plenty of power but feels wound up.

here is the current gear plot

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plan is a straight cut 0.727 4th, a new 1.14 3rd, limited slip and those couple bearing and oiling plates as needed. the trans was gone through by GTA some number of years and one owner ago, where they did a refresh and put in the new final drive.

playing with the gear plots i think this looks the most comfortable in terms of step size between 2nd -> 3rd and 3-> 4th, and from reading it seems like this is a fairly common 3rd and 4th combo

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planning at the moment anyway Laughing to dive into the rebuild, or i guess more accurately regear, myself. ive got a copy of the 091 long manual, and of course the bentley.
ive taken apart some 020s way back when, but never any of these transmissions. reading the long manual it doesnt look terrible but we'll see how it goes. ill be sure to document all the missteps though Smile
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2020 1:46 pm    Post subject: Re: 1Z TDI Westy - Build Thread Reply with quote

I'll be curious to hear how those ratios work for you. I'm currently diving into my Fall/Winter project in the pursuit of taller gearing. I'm presently building up the diff section of an 090 auto. It's getting all new bushings/bearings and a 3.08 R&P. It's a bit of a gamble, as I'm not aware of anyone else taking this route, so we'll see if I just bricked my brick.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 05, 2020 1:56 pm    Post subject: Re: 1Z TDI Westy - Build Thread Reply with quote

i drove a buddy's ahu swapped van with a taller final drive and taller 3rd and didnt really enjoy the 2 -> 3 step, and it made for a way too fast of a 4th with the final he had. though it seemed like he could cruise comfortably >70 but the step to get there way too much i think.

im hoping this balance is a little more mellow, and im shooting for a different balance than he ended up with.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2020 12:18 am    Post subject: Re: 1Z TDI Westy - Build Thread Reply with quote

What are you using to plot the gear ratios? I'd like to plug mine in and see how they compare.

Absolutely get the straight cut 4th from GT gears, and get the straight cut 3rd too if you plan on keeping it for a while. I was surprised by the amount of material missing from my 4th gear after only 10-15k (?) miles. After seeing that, the GT gears are a no-brainer if you can swing it. Definitely get the peloquin.

As far as ratios, from my experience with the 1.9 TDI, the 4.57 R&P is good on the freeway with just the taller 4th (weddle .75 or .77? I'd have to check) and 215/75/15 tires. 70mph starts to feel wound out.

Long story short, I think the 4.14 is too tall if you're doing any kind of mild offroading. It's nice though because you can stay in first a little bit longer. First feels too quick with the 4.57.

1.14 3rd will close the gap, but I'd go with a GT 3rd in whatever ratio he's got and build for strength. Closing that gap is a luxury and I get used to the shift points pretty quick. (had the 1.14 and .7something and now back with the 1.23 and .85). If I were in a car with any real potential to be fast and fun, I'd care more about the shift points, but the reality of the TDI vanagon is that it's going to feel wound out no matter what.

I'll just add that Mike at Rancho could not have been more adamant about getting the RPMs up on TDI swaps, and this is counter to a lot of what I read on the forums as far as 4th gear goes and trying to keep the revs down on the freeway. Just something to consider.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2020 8:21 am    Post subject: Re: 1Z TDI Westy - Build Thread Reply with quote

erste wrote:


I'll just add that Mike at Rancho could not have been more adamant about getting the RPMs up on TDI swaps, and this is counter to a lot of what I read on the forums as far as 4th gear goes and trying to keep the revs down on the freeway. Just something to consider.


I think this is the Achille's heel of TDI swaps that isn't often discussed.

It seems we are learning that keeping the RPMs up is considered to be important for longer life of the transaxle. That was certainly my experience. I'd originally had my transaxle built with lowering RPMs in mind, shooting for RPMs somewhat similar to what I was used to in my Golf TDI. Mostly because I didn't have much other reference.

But the transaxle in these vans (and my Bus) isn't really made for the pounding that they get from the TDI motor. And one way to mitigate the pounding is higher RPMs.

But then, while the TDI can run at a little higher RPMs without much concern, they tend to get buzzy and noisy at higher RPMs. Which is certainly annoying on the highway.

I had my original transmission built with the 4.14 ratio and I think .73 4th. It was chewed up within maybe 10,000 miles. (IIRC)

Second build included the new straight cut 3rd and 4th gears and the aluminum gear housing to hopefully beef everything up. 4th is also slightly taller (I think it was .75.) I think I have 10,000 on it now, and so far so good. If I hadn't paid for the 4.14 on the first rebuild and/or it had been damaged when the first build went bad, I might have gone back to the stock ratio.

I did also go from the popular General Grabbers AT tires back to stock tires which gave a bump in RPMs, though in all honestly that move was because the AT tires were getting noisy (and I was going to tow my Thing, so I wanted every little bit of advantage I could get via the bump in RPMs).
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2020 8:30 am    Post subject: Re: 1Z TDI Westy - Build Thread Reply with quote

That's a considerable part of the rationale behind my swap from manual to auto.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2020 9:07 am    Post subject: Re: 1Z TDI Westy - Build Thread Reply with quote

erste wrote:
What are you using to plot the gear ratios? I'd like to plug mine in and see how they compare.


plots are from here
https://www.blocklayer.com/rpm-geareng.aspx

the best gear ratio site ive run across so far


appreciate the feedback - im not swapping the final drive for this project so itll be the 4.57. i dont mind the steep first gear.

i asked gears about a straight 3rd and i recall him saying that wasnt an option.

as for the jumps between gears - im not trying to get a sporty feel out of it, i have another car for that, but the really dramatic jumps make you have to shift more and if theres a way to find a balance thats where ill shoot.
the thing im giving up the most in pursuit of that is not feeling the need to go >70-75, and gearing 3rd and 4th a bit closer together. keeping the target speed down should also lessen the need for more throttle in the flats as youre not fighting the terrible aero as hard. with the target gearing in the second plot im around 2500rpm at 60 and i think that will be as good of a balance as i can get.

definitely agree on not lugging the crap out of it, and i can imagine how that 4.14 + .7x 4th would absolutely destroy the trans, but i bet it was a comfortable low rpm cruiser while it held together Smile
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 31, 2021 7:35 am    Post subject: Re: 1Z TDI Westy - finally! Reply with quote

valvecovergasket wrote:



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Hey valvecovergasket,

Nice build! Do you have the part number for the water pump pulley you used above? I'm trying to switch to a non-A/C belt setup on my AHU and the vr6 water pump pulley I've got seems a bit too big. Even with shimming.

Thanks
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 31, 2021 7:45 am    Post subject: Re: 1Z TDI Westy - finally! Reply with quote

cawvin wrote:
valvecovergasket wrote:



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Hey valvecovergasket,

Nice build! Do you have the part number for the water pump pulley you used above? I'm trying to switch to a non-A/C belt setup on my AHU and the vr6 water pump pulley I've got seems a bit too big. Even with shimming.

Thanks


Should be 028121031E
http://catcar.info/audivw/?lang=en&l=c3RzPT17I...MTAxMTQ%3D
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 31, 2021 7:59 am    Post subject: Re: 1Z TDI Westy - Build Thread Reply with quote

ah nice find!
i think we ordered the overpriced repackaged version here - https://s-pautomotive.com/product/waterpump-pulley-for-ac-and-power-steering-delete/

and didnt even end up using the belt it came with ...


also (and i dont drive this thing often enough daily) but im in bellingham, maybe see you out and about around whatcom county
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 01, 2021 7:36 am    Post subject: Re: 1Z TDI Westy - Build Thread Reply with quote

ALIKA_T3 wrote:


Should be 028121031E
http://catcar.info/audivw/?lang=en&l=c3RzPT17I...MTAxMTQ%3D


Thanks Alika, I think that one will work. The one I have now, same part number except ending in 'D' has the wrong offset, which puts it too close to the block, but that can be fixed by shims. But the 'D' pulley also isn't rounded/beveled on the block-facing side, (which it looks like the 'E' is) so it interferes with the crank pulley.

valvecovergasket wrote:
ah nice find!
i think we ordered the overpriced repackaged version here - https://s-pautomotive.com/product/waterpump-pulley-for-ac-and-power-steering-delete/

and didnt even end up using the belt it came with ...


also (and i dont drive this thing often enough daily) but im in bellingham, maybe see you out and about around whatcom county


Did you end up using a 6pk1045 belt? And yes i'll keep my eye (and ear) out for your rig around here!
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 01, 2021 7:49 am    Post subject: Re: 1Z TDI Westy - Build Thread Reply with quote

cawvin wrote:

Did you end up using a 6pk1045 belt?


I'm partially through a build on a TDI syncro using that pully in VCG's shop. I have the label for the belt we used out at the shop and can grab you the number later in the week or next weekend. If needed before that the old napa guess and check will have to do!
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 01, 2021 8:01 am    Post subject: Re: 1Z TDI Westy - Build Thread Reply with quote

pjn_wyo wrote:
cawvin wrote:

Did you end up using a 6pk1045 belt?


VCG's van doesn't have power steering so his belt was different.


this

though i do remember that the no a/c no p/s belt that came with that kit i linked also didnt fit. not sure why
but i dont have the p/n of the belt i ended up using handy but should be able to dig it up later this week... i think it was only one size off but dont remember in which direction
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2021 2:20 pm    Post subject: Re: 1Z TDI Westy - Build Thread Reply with quote

@cawvin

I checked on this last week and forgot to post back. I put a ABED fluid damper on my swap and then needed to used his water pump pully + a different length belt than what VCG linked above.

So I'm no help to tell you what length belt you need. Sorry!
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2021 2:32 pm    Post subject: Re: 1Z TDI Westy - Build Thread Reply with quote

good reminder!

for some reason i thought i had the belt slip in the glovebox... nope. and the numbers are worn off now.

but, dug through my receipts folder and its a napa micro-v # 060418

cawvin wrote:

Did you end up using a 6pk1045 belt? And yes i'll keep my eye (and ear) out for your rig around here!


which appears to be a 6pk1062
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 24, 2021 9:45 am    Post subject: Re: 1Z TDI Westy - Build Thread Reply with quote

valvecovergasket wrote:

as for the jumps between gears - im not trying to get a sporty feel out of it, i have another car for that, but the really dramatic jumps make you have to shift more and if theres a way to find a balance thats where ill shoot.
the thing im giving up the most in pursuit of that is not feeling the need to go >70-75, and gearing 3rd and 4th a bit closer together. keeping the target speed down should also lessen the need for more throttle in the flats as youre not fighting the terrible aero as hard. with the target gearing in the second plot im around 2500rpm at 60 and i think that will be as good of a balance as i can get.


coming back around to this, i think ive settled on the 0.75 4th

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


decent balance of highway performance and being able to manage 35mph @ 2300 in 3rd and a bit over 45mph at 2100 in 4th as well
the too-tall 4th would make some of the side highway stuff lug a bit more.

i think the stars may align for the build to happen this coming winter


after driving a mk4 tdi around for a while yesterday i was reminded that it might be worth investigating the DMF swap as well - especially if the trans is apart anyway

from what i recall the only major change needed was adding the TDI input shaft? this guy from brickwerks
are there any state side suppliers?


i should probably start a new thread and bring that info back in here but figured id see if someone ran across this Smile
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2021 10:03 am    Post subject: Re: 1Z TDI Westy - Build Thread Reply with quote

i forget if ive mentioned it in the thread before - but ive had a nagging issue on startups since the engine swap

if i move out with any load i get a hiccup around 1100-1200 rpm. in order to self heal it, i need to release the throttle and clutch in for a beat or two, then i can head out.
its possible to pedal through this hiccup but then the redline is ~3000 rpm and fueling is massively reduced to the point where the EGTs at highway speed are in the 300-400deg range.


ive been chatting up malone a little bit about reducing the fuel throughout to limit some smoke and had mentioned this issue as well. owain said to look into adding a vspd feedback, but digging through tdiclub to try and confirm possible sources of this hiccup led me to the pedal inputs. (and i really want to avoid more sensors and brackets if possible, so adding an almost useless vspd input didnt seem appealing)

when i thinned the harness i left everything i could see that was related to the CC (which i opted not to install, and had malone turn off faults for) stubbed off in a separate connector.
this meant the brake switch, clutch switch, and brake light inputs to the ecu are all floating, and i have no faults or blinking GP lights regardless of the status of the hiccup.

but this mirrors the behavior


Brake/Clutch switches

Quote:
On the 1Z in my Toyota, I have a condition where I step on the gas and at approximately 1200 rpms the pedal goes dead. A quick lift of the foot off the pedal and then back on the gas and I have a normal gas pedal. Jimbote (who noted this) and others can probably expound on this - and perhaps it is not the same on the AHU, though I would expect that it is. I think that there needs to be 12V to the brake pedal switch in order to eliminate this little inconvenience.



and it seems like the 1Z/AHU are pretty simple in their checking for two-foot application, with all of the various switch inputs heading the same direction. the later mk4 stuff has slightly more complex NC and NO switches for the brake that need to move opposite each other. the wiring diagram for the 1Z seems to confirm grounding them all would be fine


1Z swap wiring


Quote:
The following information is based on an AHU engine in a Jetta, so it may not be an exact fit for you.
ECU Pin 17 White/Red Clutch Switch F36
ECU Pin 20 White/Yellow Brake Switch F47
ECU Pin 44 Black/Red Brake Lights
Connect all of the above to ECU Pin 33 Brown/Blue Sensor Ground. This will simulate clutch engaged and brake released.



my mistake was assuming having malone completely delete the cruise and all of its various inputs would remove more than just the status of the faults, but would eliminate the fault reaction as well.

i still need to do a quick test grounding those inputs at my breakout connector. but thought id put that all here for future-me to remember where the info came from Smile
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2021 10:37 am    Post subject: Re: 1Z TDI Westy - Build Thread Reply with quote

Good research and I hope that grounding those wires helps.

Rhetorically speaking, IF CC was a factory option for that engine management, I'd be curious how that wiring/coding was done at the factory.

Neil.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2021 6:56 pm    Post subject: Re: 1Z TDI Westy - Build Thread Reply with quote

Vanagon Nut wrote:
Good research and I hope that grounding those wires helps.

Rhetorically speaking, IF CC was a factory option for that engine management, I'd be curious how that wiring/coding was done at the factory.

Neil.


yeah thats a good question - i probably wont dig deep enough to sort it but i do wonder whether the reaction is due to the two-foot logic to prevent brake and throttle at the same time, or whether its a factor of the missing CC related pedal inputs.
if its the former, then there wouldnt be any coding to remove it as everything it was ever fitted to would have the brake input anyway
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2021 7:58 pm    Post subject: Re: 1Z TDI Westy - Build Thread Reply with quote

valvecovergasket wrote:

1Z swap wiring


Quote:
The following information is based on an AHU engine in a Jetta, so it may not be an exact fit for you.
ECU Pin 17 White/Red Clutch Switch F36
ECU Pin 20 White/Yellow Brake Switch F47
ECU Pin 44 Black/Red Brake Lights
Connect all of the above to ECU Pin 33 Brown/Blue Sensor Ground. This will simulate clutch engaged and brake released.


i still need to do a quick test grounding those inputs at my breakout connector.


I'm fond of saying "I know enough to get in trouble" Wink but that ECU 33 rang a bell with me.

On my first ABA Motronic swap, I accidentally left ECU 33 disconnected. The engine ran ok, ECT sensor to ECU worked but OBD1 would randomly throw an "intermittent short to ground" DTC for that sensor. RossTech Scope log showed a random huge ECT temp spike that seemed to coincide with the code thrown.

My long winded route to a question:

would grounding various switches or sensors to that ECU 33 wire some how mess up that ground path as it was originally intended to be used? Is that a reference ground to the sensor inputs as seen by ECU ? IOW, the sensors themselves have their own ground wire likely to engine block?

I see you plan to do some testing and I think your knowledge in all this is far beyond mine but thought I'd throw that out there.

Neil.
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