Golf Oil Change Woes

[glutamodo]

I have an 85 Golf in which I rebuilt the engine (a VW reman'd head, new rings onto de-carboned pistons, and new rod bearings) many years ago when it was around 200K. The engine is now well over 400K, and does not burn oil and runs fine. Almost all of my driving is done at 65MPH on rural highways, and long ago I switched to synthetic oil (Castrol Syntec/Edge 10W30) so I'm OK with going by Owner's Manual oil change interval of 7500 miles. Hell my inherited 83 Camry calls for 10K oil changes and both of those were with plain Dino Oil!

I was a bit due for an oil change yesterday on the Golf, and when I got home from work I swept the dirt out my carport and got under the Golf and drained the oil.

Since I go so long on my oil changes, I like to get as much of the old oil out of it as possible, so I do what may be considered be a bad thing, I run the engine a few seconds after the oil has drained to pump some more oil through the works and then let that drain off while I change out the filter. Yes, I know this might make it so the oil pump can't "prime" again afterwards, but it's never happened.

Well, I rather suspect that DID happen to me yesterday. I filled it up with around 4.3 quarts of 10W30 Edge and a new Mahle OC47 filter (into which I had run some oil ahead of time) and started it. The oil light just would not go out. I decided to rev it up a little, around 2K RPM for some seconds, only to have the engine (still quite warm, I must add) squeal and then suddenly stop.

Damn.

Did the engine just seize?



Okay... I let the engine and myself cool a bit, then got out my little oiler can, which has a hand pump and a flexible tube nozzle, and removed both oil pressure senders and shot into both holes, a healthy amount of fresh oil. For the one at the oil filter flange, this can back-fill the oil pump and make it prime up again. I wanted to do this while the engine was still warm though because if something was on the verge of seizing I wanted fresh lube there.

I also tried turning the engine over (backwards) with a socket on the crank pully nut. I knew something was wrong when I felt the timing belt skip. Damn.

So I removed the upper timing cover so I could check the belt and timing marks which were way off, by quite a bit actually. I tried turning the engine over with the starter, and everything did move but no compression due to timing belt mismatch. Too bad that the oil pressure didn't come up as the pump was moving during this test since the timing belt was still rotating the intermediate shaft.

Anyway, I loosened the tensioner, popped the timing belt off the camshaft, I was able to set the engine at TDC, finagle the timing belt around without removing the lower cover bits to the point where the intermediate shaft spun the distributor in line with Number 1, and got the camshaft turned for the timing marks. In doing so I had to feed the timing belt by hand through the works, so I got to see all the teeth on there and none of them felt bad, this belt has less than a year in service , and is an old-stock German Conti belt so I was OK with it. Flipped the belt back on the pulley, dug out my tensioner adjuster tool and set it up(only gave the belt tension a cursory test though, it seemed OK but hopefully it lasts) and locked it down.

By this time I had also given a few more pumps of oil into both oil switch holes. Also, not sure if it was something I did now, or it was already like that, but the wire busted off the connector for the oil switch on top of the oil filter flange, so I had to fix that too. With the timing cover still off, I started the engine, it fired right up, and within a few seconds I could hear the tone of the engine change when the oil pump kicked in and the light went right out. Let it run until the lifters filled up and stopped clacking. Whew.

Yes, prior to replacing the timing cover, I did hook up a timing light, and it was spot on.

Still, a 15 minute oil change turned into like 3 hours of mucking about. Hopefully it all holds up.
_________________
Andy T.


IMAGE NOTE: It has been noted that Chrome based browsers may have issues in displaying my vast image library, which use non-secure links and are on an FTP server. Images should still be viewable if the link is clicked though.
I do not know how to fix this. All I can say is it all works fine for me with what I use, Firefox.

[Butcher]

Running the engine to remove the last drops of oil? That is a pretty stupid move. I hope that is the last time you do that. Old stock rubber components? Rubber has a shelf life. I would recommend a new timing belt fresh from the factory.

Anyway, glad things seemed to work out. It sounds like you dodged a volley of bullets.

[glutamodo]

I only run it very briefly for that, and I've done it numerous times over the years. I also do things like rock the body to make more oil drain out of the pan, I want to get as much out of there as possible!

Of course, the reason I posted this was as a word of caution regarding this sort of thing.

I actually would prefer my old stock German Continental Belt that I put on there about a year ago over most new ones from a lot of places. Now, had it looked bad, I would have replaced it, but I had it in my hands, feeding and pulling it through the works, to advance the intermediate shaft around to the point where the distributor was in line, and I overshot it twice, so in doing so I examined the entire belt "in hand" all the way around and it was excellent.
_________________
Andy T.


IMAGE NOTE: It has been noted that Chrome based browsers may have issues in displaying my vast image library, which use non-secure links and are on an FTP server. Images should still be viewable if the link is clicked though.
I do not know how to fix this. All I can say is it all works fine for me with what I use, Firefox.

[TDCTDI]

That’s the stupidest fucking thing that I’ve heard in a while.
_________________
Everybody born before 1975 has a story, good, bad, or indifferent, about a VW.


GOFUNDYOURSELF, quit asking everyone to do it for you!


An air cooled VW will make you a hoarder.


Do something, anything, to your project every day, and you will eventually complete it.

[glutamodo]

Heck if I didn't want criticism, I'd not have posted the story. However it's really not much different from when you build a new engine, or change out an oil pump. And I've never experienced any issue with any of those scenarios over the years.
_________________
Andy T.


IMAGE NOTE: It has been noted that Chrome based browsers may have issues in displaying my vast image library, which use non-secure links and are on an FTP server. Images should still be viewable if the link is clicked though.
I do not know how to fix this. All I can say is it all works fine for me with what I use, Firefox.

[TDCTDI]

Oh, that wasn’t criticism. A new engine usually has some sort of assembly lube in it to prevent metal on metal friction for the first few rotations. When installing a new pump, I’ll pour some assembly line in it & rotate it a few times to ensure that it’s primed.

If you decide to continue this practice, at least dump a quart of fresh “sacrificial” oil in the engine, start it for that same second or two to flush out the remaining old oil, and then drain that.

Better yet, if you’re so concerned about the last remaining drops of that horrible, old, worn out, contaminated oil, just reduce the service interval by at least half.
_________________
Everybody born before 1975 has a story, good, bad, or indifferent, about a VW.


GOFUNDYOURSELF, quit asking everyone to do it for you!


An air cooled VW will make you a hoarder.


Do something, anything, to your project every day, and you will eventually complete it.

[oprn]

I have never before heard of such a practice! You will do far more damage running the engine dry that what a few ounces of left over used oil will ever do!
The fact that you had to rebuild it at 200K miles tells me something. I have a '92 Jetta in the yard right now with 225K on it, it has good oil pressure and 160 to 170 psi compression. I have no plans to rebuild it anytime soon.

Drop that practice and step up your oil changes for longer engine life!

[Butcher]

Mercedes designs their dipsticks to suck the oil out. You put on an adapter to the top of the stick and out comes the oil. So much oil if you remove the drain plug, not a drop comes out. Make some type of tube that does the same thing on your VW. I did on mine and it works great.

I really do not think that the extra ounce will make a difference with all that new oil but if that is what you think, then great.

As for posting your opinion and not expecting people's comments, the only sure fire way to prevent that is to keep it to yourself.

Old rubber is old rubber, there is no way you could convince me your eyes and touch can tell if it's good or not. It's your car so have at it.

[TDCTDI]

The timing belt jumping when you turned the crank tells me that the squealing you were hearing was the cam seizing in the head. VW does not use bearings in their cylinder heads, any galling is going to require replacement of the head.
_________________
Everybody born before 1975 has a story, good, bad, or indifferent, about a VW.


GOFUNDYOURSELF, quit asking everyone to do it for you!


An air cooled VW will make you a hoarder.


Do something, anything, to your project every day, and you will eventually complete it.

[skills@eurocarsplus]

[Glenn]

[TimGud]

Running an engine dry and thinking it’s a good thing is one of the oddest things I have ever heard. Hope nobody else reads this and thinks it’s a good idea. ITS NOT!

[glutamodo]

I've started writing a response to this many times but just end up deleting it.

Again, as I said above, if I didn't want criticism, I'd not have posted it.

Despite having feeling like I got off lucky here, I can't help but help defend myself, or at least give explanation. It all began when with an experiment a long time ago, just wondering how much oil might "bust loose" from the works, if I tried it. (And to my surprise, I saw quite a bit more than what you see when guys give their willy an extra shake. ) I never intended nor expected this to run the lube system dry, because I damn well know, in order for a gear pump to function, you have to have oil in the works and I knew the oil pickup was rather empty at that point.

Anyway, I suppose I deserve to be head-butted here, and maybe this is a warning about overthinking/experimenting what one is doing.

Ironically, later this same day, I got in my other commuter car, my 83 Camry, and turned on the wipers, only to have them move a tiny amount then stop. Checked the fuse and it was OK, so something with the wiper motor just died. That means until I get it sorted, I'll probably have to drive the Golf to work. Fortunately it seems to be working fine.
_________________
Andy T.


IMAGE NOTE: It has been noted that Chrome based browsers may have issues in displaying my vast image library, which use non-secure links and are on an FTP server. Images should still be viewable if the link is clicked though.
I do not know how to fix this. All I can say is it all works fine for me with what I use, Firefox.

[oprn]

Now maybe I am going to get a verbal lashing for this but I have in the past changed the filter every second oil change. The reason being that filters only take out the coarse particles anyway and if you have ever cut a used filter open you will discover there is virtually nothing in there for dirt on a well maintained engine. Every time you throw out a used oil filter, you are throwing way something that has been used to, in most cased less than 5% of it's capacity.

This leaves a 1/2 of a quart of used oil to mix with the new but I change every 3000 miles so it's not a big deal. On the next change it will be gone.

When I get a vehicle with an unknown oil change history and the oil looks black and neglected my practice is to dump the oil, add 2 quarts of diesel fuel, start it up and idle it briefly. The diesel mixes with the oil in the filter (for lube) and flushes the engine. I then dump that mixture and change the filter and fill it with fresh oil. There will be a trace of diesel in the engine but it will evaporate out on the next long road trip.

[glutamodo]

oprn - even though you invited the same sort of scorn as I myself did by starting this thread, I can't quite condemn you for what you claim. The watercooled VW oil filter is pretty large and if you use a quality filter I suppose you can get away with not changing it out every time...

Back when I worked at the VW parts/service shop I remember a couple of instances where people asked for the larger oil filter used on Diesel models. However I don't remember ever asking if they were using that in conjunction with extended oil change intervals.

However I don't skip filters at oil changes, even before I changed to longer mile intervals of oil changes. I've always used Mahle or Mann filters on my Golf except I think one time I used a Bosch filter when I discovered I was out of Mahles.

I've heard of people using diesel, and even kerosene or gasoline, to effect an engine oil system flush. I've done that sort of thing more than once myself, but never with the insane quantity of a two quarts! Rather with more expensive products like Liqui Moly 2037 and Berryman B12. The former comes in a half liter can; the latter, at some point, dropped the text on that product's canister about using it in the crankcase, but I still had an old can which I scanned, which states to only use 6 ounces in a 4-banger.

Now... over on my Camry. Its from 1983 and there's a sticker in the engine compartment advising as to the 10K oil change interval. I was rather floored when I first saw this. My parents bought this car, low miles, off-lease, in 1986. Since it saw mostly in-town driving they did the 3K oil change thing which was probably a good thing.

Now, with me... I mostly drive it on the highway, so went to longer oil change intervals. But I never liked doing so with the stock Toyota oil filter... it's tiny! Bosch used to make a premium high mileage filter for this application, which was noticeably larger and I used them along with my longer-mile oil changes. And it worked fine. Then Bosch stopped making that filter. I tried a similar high-mileage filter from a competitor. Now, there's a difference between the VW and Toyota setup. The Toyota oil filter sits on the block nearly upside down compared to VW. So to keep the lube system primed, the oil filter needs to have a functional anti-drainback valve. Well, that other filter just didn't cut it, even though it claimed to have the requisite valve in it. I was seeing very long startup intervals waiting for the oil light to go out... causing the same kind of feeling as I felt the other day when I saw similar on my Golf. I had to switch back to using tiny Toyota branded filters for that car.
_________________
Andy T.


IMAGE NOTE: It has been noted that Chrome based browsers may have issues in displaying my vast image library, which use non-secure links and are on an FTP server. Images should still be viewable if the link is clicked though.
I do not know how to fix this. All I can say is it all works fine for me with what I use, Firefox.

[TDCTDI]

NEVER use flush treatments in an engine, they do exactly what they're advertised to do, they break down & loosen deposits in the engine. Now, all of that shit is in suspension in the oil. I know, "But then I drain the oil & get it all out.", WRONG! The shit floats around & gets sucked up into the oil pump pick-up screen, the pre-filter that keeps the large chunks out of the oil pump, and then you end up with oil starvation issues.

In addition, the shit that does not immediately loosen up, will do so over time & continue to block the pick up screen.

Automotive manufacturers were under pressure from the federal government to extend service intervals. To avoid tariffs, the manufacturers complied & bumped up the intervals to 7,000, 10,000, & even 15,000. These cars started having "carbon build up" issues, but, since most of failures happened out of warranty, especially since most owners could not provide documentation for EVERY, ON-TIME oil service, the manufacturers were able to weasel out of any sort of warranty obligation & were happy to sell you a new engine or a new car.

I have customers that have well over 400,000 on their cars with no carbon build up inside the engine because they did their oil service intervals every 5,000 with synthetic oil, but I've also replaced hundreds of engines with less than 100,000 that failed because they only had 4-5 oil changes in that total mileage.


BTW, that Toyota oil filter fits certain lawn mowers too.
_________________
Everybody born before 1975 has a story, good, bad, or indifferent, about a VW.


GOFUNDYOURSELF, quit asking everyone to do it for you!


An air cooled VW will make you a hoarder.


Do something, anything, to your project every day, and you will eventually complete it.

[glutamodo]

[TDCTDI]

Speaking of "unmatched", one of my favorite "Wall of shame" part failures was from a customer's car after he super-heated the engine driving it with no coolant until it died. Thinking that I was dealing t=with a blown head gasket, I remove the valve cover & found that the upper windage tray had melted & looked like icing over the camshaft.

After removing the engine, I removed the oil pan to swap to his new engine & found that the engine got soooo hot that the lower windage tray had melted & flowed into the pick up tube. The engine got so hot that it blued the pick up tube.

_________________
Everybody born before 1975 has a story, good, bad, or indifferent, about a VW.


GOFUNDYOURSELF, quit asking everyone to do it for you!


An air cooled VW will make you a hoarder.


Do something, anything, to your project every day, and you will eventually complete it.

[glutamodo]

Okay, that's pretty bad.

I kind of wish I had an image of what my oil pump intake looked like back in 2001, but that was 4 years before I got my first digital camera and started documenting stuff like this.

Both of those beat out "dissolved gunk" though I think!
_________________
Andy T.


IMAGE NOTE: It has been noted that Chrome based browsers may have issues in displaying my vast image library, which use non-secure links and are on an FTP server. Images should still be viewable if the link is clicked though.
I do not know how to fix this. All I can say is it all works fine for me with what I use, Firefox.

[Major Woody]

I change my oil and filter every 3000 like clockwork. Full synthetic.
$25 in supplies and half an hour's labor is a pittance, compared to the cost of engine work.