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oprn
Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016
Posts: 12714
Location: Western Canada
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 Posted: Thu Dec 12, 2019 10:39 pm Post subject: Re: Golf Oil Change Woes |
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| glutamodo wrote: |
| oprn - even though you invited the same sort of scorn as I myself did by starting this thread, I can't quite condemn you for what you claim. The watercooled VW oil filter is pretty large and if you use a quality filter I suppose you can get away with not changing it out every time... |
Folks really have a false perception that a filter "cleans" the oil. It does not! It will not take out carbon (the fine stuff that makes the oil turn black) or water or acids, all part of the reason we change our oil. All it takes out is the bigger lumps.
I have challenged guys on this forum before that claim a filter is "plugged up" and needs changing every time to open one up and show us this "plugging up" that happens in 3000 to 5000 miles. No takers to date...
I extend the same challenge to you.
The cheaper the filter by the way the less the chance that it will catch anything. So in theory a cheaper filter will run longer than a good one. I will still run a better quality filter myself for the fact that it will likely pull more and smaller lumps out of the oil. |
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TDCTDI
Samba Advocatus Diaboli
Joined: August 31, 2013
Posts: 12850
Location: North Carolina
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| Posted: Fri Dec 13, 2019 6:38 am Post subject: Re: Golf Oil Change Woes |
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| oprn wrote: |
The cheaper the filter by the way the less the chance that it will catch anything. So in theory a cheaper filter will run longer than a good one. I will still run a better quality filter myself for the fact that it will likely pull more and smaller lumps out of the oil. |
The great thing about continuing to run a filter is that the dirtier it is, the finer the particulate it will capture.  At least until it gets blocked enough & restricts the flow & the bypass opens up. 
Cheap oil filters have two issues, the first being that they are made of some pretty thin metal. VWs run fairly high oil pressure, especially when cold & this can cause the filters to swell & distort, enough so that they can lose the ability to seal to the housing & it only take a few miles to pump all of the oil out. The second is that cheap filters generally do not have the anti back flow valve & this will cause hammering of the lifters & lack of lubrication to the cam for the first 5-10 seconds. Prolonged use of these will cause the lifters to collapse & the cam journals to gall.
Whether running used filters or cheap filters, are you really saving anything? In the end, it's your car, do what you want.
_________________
Everybody born before 1975 has a story, good, bad, or indifferent, about a VW.
GOFUNDYOURSELF, quit asking everyone to do it for you!
An air cooled VW will make you a hoarder.
Do something, anything, to your project every day, and you will eventually complete it. |
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Butcher
Samba Member
Joined: December 05, 2015
Posts: 1285
Location: Right Here
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| Posted: Fri Dec 13, 2019 7:20 am Post subject: Re: Golf Oil Change Woes |
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I work on Mercedes products and they use a canister filter on their engines. I can say for certain, the cheap filters use a paper that does not last very long. Typically they crumble when I pull them from the housing. Many times they are already compromised. I would think that would be the same case for the canned metal filters.
I agree, filters only get the chunks out of the way. The only ones I've seen 'plugged' are the ones that have been in the engine way too long and usually it's clogged with sludge. |
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Butcher
Samba Member
Joined: December 05, 2015
Posts: 1285
Location: Right Here
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| Posted: Fri Dec 13, 2019 7:23 am Post subject: Re: Golf Oil Change Woes |
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I change oil in my cars at 5k with synthetic. I recommend factory change intervals with my clients cars [with OEM spec filters/oils]. I've taken apart some engine with over 250k with no sludge issues.
Changing oils at 3k that has good synthetic oil is like changing your tires with half the thread on them. If it makes you happy and your ok with throwing away the money, good for you. |
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Major Woody
Samba Enigma
Joined: December 04, 2002
Posts: 9010
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Fri Dec 13, 2019 1:53 pm Post subject: Re: Golf Oil Change Woes |
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My cars all have more than 100k on them. When I drain my oil at 3k it looks and smells terrible. So yes, it does make me feel better and I don't think the tire wear analogy is proper. A tire that is wearing down still presents a good traction surface to the ground. Oil that is breaking down and carrying particulates is not the same thing.
I buy Wix filters. I was told they are much better than the cheap Fram ones, but I don't know. |
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TDCTDI
Samba Advocatus Diaboli
Joined: August 31, 2013
Posts: 12850
Location: North Carolina
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| Posted: Fri Dec 13, 2019 2:35 pm Post subject: Re: Golf Oil Change Woes |
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Wix are on the upper end of shitty oil filters.
_________________
Everybody born before 1975 has a story, good, bad, or indifferent, about a VW.
GOFUNDYOURSELF, quit asking everyone to do it for you!
An air cooled VW will make you a hoarder.
Do something, anything, to your project every day, and you will eventually complete it. |
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oprn
Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016
Posts: 12714
Location: Western Canada
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| Posted: Fri Dec 13, 2019 6:47 pm Post subject: Re: Golf Oil Change Woes |
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| Butcher wrote: |
| Changing oils at 3k that has good synthetic oil is like changing your tires with half the thread on them. If it makes you happy and your ok with throwing away the money, good for you. |
I am going to disagree also on this one too.
Oil needs to be changed because it is contaminated with combustion by-products and wear particles. This contamination does not effectively change whether you have synthetic or conventional oil in your engine. Oils will only hold so much contamination in suspension until it becomes saturated and starts to precipitate out in the form of sludge. The only advantage synthetics have is that they will hold more dirt and acids in circulation for longer than conventional oils will.
So if you think it's better to circulate that dirt and acid longer then go for it. Personally I like clean oil so I buy a medium quality oil and change it often. That also eliminates the worry about a few drops of very dirty oil that might remain in the engine at change time. |
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timvw7476
Samba Member
Joined: June 03, 2013
Posts: 2200
Location: seattle
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| Posted: Fri Dec 13, 2019 8:11 pm Post subject: Re: Golf Oil Change Woes |
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Fun Fact: you do not have to dry run that engine to lose prime,
just pull into the carport with a pan full of hot oil & drain immediately.
you too can then have fun dropping the pan & packing whatever grease
you have on hand to repack the pump & get pressure back.
Hopefully you jumped time due to turning the engine backwards & all is good,
the 8V is bulletproof, but NOT idiot proof.
Quit chasing that last five ounces of used oil, not worth it. |
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Butcher
Samba Member
Joined: December 05, 2015
Posts: 1285
Location: Right Here
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| Posted: Sat Dec 14, 2019 8:21 am Post subject: Re: Golf Oil Change Woes |
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| 5oz? I bet there is less than half of that. |
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oprn
Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016
Posts: 12714
Location: Western Canada
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| Posted: Sat Dec 14, 2019 4:06 pm Post subject: Re: Golf Oil Change Woes |
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Back when I went to automotive school we were told that most of the engine wear occurs on start up before it gets pressure for the bearings and before it's up to temperature for the rings and pistons. Large industrial engines have a pre-lube pump that starts up and pressures the system before you start the engine. If one could find a compact good quality 12 volt pump it would not be hard to rig up on our engines.
I have even considered a 1 quart pulsation bottle that would fill while driving, shut off with the key and open again to discharge it's load of oil as soon as you turn the key on again for start up just from the pressure retained in the bottle. |
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Butcher
Samba Member
Joined: December 05, 2015
Posts: 1285
Location: Right Here
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| Posted: Sun Dec 15, 2019 11:01 am Post subject: Re: Golf Oil Change Woes |
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We all would agree that changing the oil at 100 miles is insane. What about 1000 miles? 2k? At some point we would start to disagree. Some of us base out opinion without many facts to bolster it.
I used to change oils at 3k, Why? Because it made sense to me when I was 18. Looks and smells is not how I would diagnose if engine oil is good/bad. Sure, I could show you some bad oil because of the chunks it had in it.
What appears bad to you may test just fine if it was properly analyzed. That is what we had to do at the dealership. Facts trumped opinions especially when the car turned from a warranty repair to a customer pay.
I just do not believe that today's good synthetic oils are 'worn' out at 3k. Sure, there are those clients that drive a mile or two a day and never get the oil warmed up, but I do not think any of us here fall into that category.
With good oil, the filter must be able to withstand longer intervals too. So I would not recommend longer oil services with a poor filter. I've just seen too many fail over the years.
I have seen thousands of cars come and go out of the Mercedes dealership that I worked at [25 years] and NONE had an engine oil related failure that was serviced properly. So when I talk to a client, it's hard to lie to them about how changing the oil sooner will make your engine last longer than 300k+. All of my clients are not keeping their cars that long.
Changing the engine oil with a Mercedes at recommended intervals will cost you $3k for 200k miles of driving. Changing your oil at 3k will cost you $10,000 for 200k of driving. I know, this is a VW forum but how do I explain those numbers to a client? Because it will save you money with engine repairs? I already mentioned that the engines have no additional oil related failures following the factory intervals.
It all comes down to spending your money. If you feel happy about changing oil at 3k, have at it. I will change mine at 5k+ and have more money for beer. |
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timvw7476
Samba Member
Joined: June 03, 2013
Posts: 2200
Location: seattle
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| Posted: Sun Dec 15, 2019 2:30 pm Post subject: Re: Golf Oil Change Woes |
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| Butcher wrote: |
| 5oz? I bet there is less than half of that. |
If you include what's left in the drillings in the block & head minus the
filter, well, it leaves a small mess on the garage floor when you perform
an autopsy. : ( ymmv. |
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oprn
Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016
Posts: 12714
Location: Western Canada
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| Posted: Mon Dec 16, 2019 5:46 am Post subject: Re: Golf Oil Change Woes |
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| Butcher wrote: |
| I just do not believe that today's good synthetic oils are 'worn' out at 3k. |
Oil does not "wear out" it gets contaminated! |
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Butcher
Samba Member
Joined: December 05, 2015
Posts: 1285
Location: Right Here
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| Posted: Mon Dec 16, 2019 9:21 am Post subject: Re: Golf Oil Change Woes |
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| Yes, but let's agree it's no longer useful. Just like my kids but I cannot change them out. |
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TDCTDI
Samba Advocatus Diaboli
Joined: August 31, 2013
Posts: 12850
Location: North Carolina
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| Posted: Mon Dec 16, 2019 11:05 am Post subject: Re: Golf Oil Change Woes |
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Then there are the customers that call up in a panic that can't get the correct oil for their car, to which I respond, "ANY oil is better than no oil.". That right there should be the moral to this story.
_________________
Everybody born before 1975 has a story, good, bad, or indifferent, about a VW.
GOFUNDYOURSELF, quit asking everyone to do it for you!
An air cooled VW will make you a hoarder.
Do something, anything, to your project every day, and you will eventually complete it. |
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