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txasylum
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Joined: December 15, 2004
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Location: Boyers, PA
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 Posted: Sat Dec 14, 2019 6:41 pm Post subject: 1961 Beetle, 28Pict Carb, what Dizzy? |
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I picked up this car last week. Today I finally messed around with it and got it running, but realized that the dizzy vacuum is not advancing the timing.
I have a 28Pict carb. What is the correct Dizzy to match the carb?
Bob |
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EverettB 
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Glenn
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EverettB
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| Posted: Sun Dec 15, 2019 10:12 am Post subject: Re: 1961 Beetle, 28Pict Carb, what Dizzy? |
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I thought about it some more and a '61 probably had the same distributor but ending in "2".
ZV/PAU 4R2
This "2" was somewhat short lived and was replaced by the 5 so if you are looking for one, get a "5". There are more of those around anyway. Easy to find one.
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txasylum
Samba Member
Joined: December 15, 2004
Posts: 389
Location: Boyers, PA
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| Posted: Sun Dec 15, 2019 4:03 pm Post subject: Re: 1961 Beetle, 28Pict Carb, what Dizzy? |
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So, I took the dizzy off. I blew/sucked in and out of the hose to the vacuum. It seems to be working fine. It moved the points and it held steady.
So I must not be getting vacuum from the carb. I took the carb off the other day and cleaned it up. I have the 28Pict with the vacuum piston. Suggestions?
| txasylum wrote: |
I picked up this car last week. Today I finally messed around with it and got it running, but realized that the dizzy vacuum is not advancing the timing.
I have a 28Pict carb. What is the correct Dizzy to match the carb?
Bob |
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tasb
The Distributor Distributor
Joined: April 27, 2002
Posts: 6371
Location: Pentwater, Michigan
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| Posted: Sun Dec 15, 2019 5:10 pm Post subject: Re: 1961 Beetle, 28Pict Carb, what Dizzy? |
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There are a number of distributors that will work with 28 PICT carburetors:
1961= ZV/PAU 4 R 2 Big cap cast iron
1962-64 = ZV/PAU 4 R 5 " "
1964-65 = ZV/JU 4 R 3 aluminum bodied
1964-65= 111 905 205 M " "
1965= 111 905 205 N " "
These are very common distributors, shop around.
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txasylum
Samba Member
Joined: December 15, 2004
Posts: 389
Location: Boyers, PA
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| Posted: Sun Dec 15, 2019 5:16 pm Post subject: Re: 1961 Beetle, 28Pict Carb, what Dizzy? |
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I think my dizzy is working. What I think now is that the vacuum is not working on the 28PICT.
| tasb wrote: |
There are a number of distributors that will work with 28 PICT carburetors:
1961= ZV/PAU 4 R 2 Big cap cast iron
1962-64 = ZV/PAU 4 R 5 " "
1964-65 = ZV/JU 4 R 3 aluminum bodied
1964-65= 111 905 205 M " "
1965= 111 905 205 N " " |
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tasb
The Distributor Distributor
Joined: April 27, 2002
Posts: 6371
Location: Pentwater, Michigan
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| Posted: Sun Dec 15, 2019 8:14 pm Post subject: Re: 1961 Beetle, 28Pict Carb, what Dizzy? |
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Sounds good, just clarifying for others who read this in the future.
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Roads Scholar &
1957 Kombi low mileage 36 hp governor equipped M 178 Slow Drag Winner 2014, 2015, 2018
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1961 (October)Single Cab- Road Trip Workhorse |
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mukluk
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Location: Clyde, TX
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| Posted: Sun Dec 15, 2019 9:17 pm Post subject: Re: 1961 Beetle, 28Pict Carb, what Dizzy? |
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The vacuum advance passage on the 28 PICT is a very simple affair and can be seen in the picture next to 11/6 in the literature shown below. Basically, you have a passage running from the base of the carburetor on the left hand side upwards to the narrowest part of the venturi -- an upper cross passage extends through from the venturi across the top of the vertical passage to the outside of the carb body to a brass tube, to which the distributor advance tube is attached, and a second lower port is drilled through from the inside of the lower carburetor throat just below the throttle plate.
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txasylum
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Location: Boyers, PA
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| Posted: Mon Dec 16, 2019 3:32 am Post subject: Re: 1961 Beetle, 28Pict Carb, what Dizzy? |
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I found this last night as I was searching the web. I'm going to print it off. I can tell you when I took the carb off I did spray car cleaner into the piston. Lots of discolored fluid coming back out. I sprayed it and moved it in and out until the fluid was clear. I'm going to take it off again and clear the passage as shown in the pictures. I'm guessing the passage is clogged, at least I hope that is the problem.
| mukluk wrote: |
The vacuum advance passage on the 28 PICT is a very simple affair and can be seen in the picture next to 11/6 in the literature shown below. Basically, you have a passage running from the base of the carburetor on the left hand side upwards to the narrowest part of the venturi -- an upper cross passage extends through from the venturi across the top of the vertical passage to the outside of the carb body to a brass tube, to which the distributor advance tube is attached, and a second lower port is drilled through from the inside of the lower carburetor throat just below the throttle plate.
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EverettB
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flyboy161
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| Posted: Mon Dec 16, 2019 9:26 am Post subject: Re: 1961 Beetle, 28Pict Carb, what Dizzy? |
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Look at diagram 11/6, that is your vacuum circuit. No piston. The vacuum piston is for the choke. If you actuate the throttle and the upper butterfly closes, its working.
There are two small drill holes on the vacuum tube side of the carburetor inside the Venturi. One is below the throttle plate the other is above. Between the two is a vertical tube you cannot access. You can blow carb cleaner through the tube on the side an see it come out of one or both of the drilling’s in the Venturi. Bueno!
Let’s start a little simpler though. Are you running a 1200? What’s your idle speed? Bentley recommends setting it to 850rpm. Did you set the timing with the vacuum hose disconnected? A ZV/PAU R5 doesn’t make much advance. It’s anywhere from 14-22 degrees. If your hose is Dis-connected when setting the timing (at 7.5 degrees BTDC) And then reconnected once set, you will see the timing go up. Always set timing with vacuum disconnected. Bentley recommends 850 but my car’s red light and green light stay on at that speed. So, once everything is set, I idle up until the lights go out. About 975-1050. The oil light goes out first, but the red light takes a little longer and at 975 it’s still ghosting a little.
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txasylum
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Posts: 389
Location: Boyers, PA
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| Posted: Mon Dec 16, 2019 10:26 am Post subject: Re: 1961 Beetle, 28Pict Carb, what Dizzy? |
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Thanks for the info and follow on questions. The car is completely original and stock. So 1200 motor. I did set timing, but with vacuum on. I will have to disconnect and set it. I did, however, disconnect the vacuum line from the carb and it decreased and seemed to run rough. Is this normal?
When I first start the car with choke on, it runs great. It is when the choke turns off that it seems to run like it is missing. I had timing light on and watched the marking on flywheel. When rev'ed it did not advance at all. So this is why I think the vacuum is not working. But now that I mentioned the change in the motor when I took the vacuum hose off, is it working?
| flyboy161 wrote: |
Look at diagram 11/6, that is your vacuum circuit. No piston. The vacuum piston is for the choke. If you actuate the throttle and the upper butterfly closes, its working.
There are two small drill holes on the vacuum tube side of the carburetor inside the Venturi. One is below the throttle plate the other is above. Between the two is a vertical tube you cannot access. You can blow carb cleaner through the tube on the side an see it come out of one or both of the drilling’s in the Venturi. Bueno!
Let’s start a little simpler though. Are you running a 1200? What’s your idle speed? Bentley recommends setting it to 850rpm. Did you set the timing with the vacuum hose disconnected? A ZV/PAU R5 doesn’t make much advance. It’s anywhere from 14-22 degrees. If your hose is Dis-connected when setting the timing (at 7.5 degrees BTDC) And then reconnected once set, you will see the timing go up. Always set timing with vacuum disconnected. Bentley recommends 850 but my car’s red light and green light stay on at that speed. So, once everything is set, I idle up until the lights go out. About 975-1050. The oil light goes out first, but the red light takes a little longer and at 975 it’s still ghosting a little. |
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flyboy161
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| Posted: Mon Dec 16, 2019 10:55 am Post subject: Re: 1961 Beetle, 28Pict Carb, what Dizzy? |
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Yes, it is working in that case. So, disconnect the vacuum, reset idle to 850, and time to 7.5 degrees BTDC. If you notice pinging, set it to 10 degrees. And yes, it is normal for it to run a little rough with vacuum disconnected. Typically mine jumps up to about 15 to 18 degrees BTDC with vacuum connected and then advances to about 25 BTDC when revved. Again, reset the idle to no more than 1050 once done. It all works well together but faster idle means more vacuum and so less advance overall. The 18 +/- 3 is total advance and is added to the 7.5 initial timing, if you follow what I’m saying.
And if memory serves, Bentley does say fix timing on a warm (not choked) motor.
Also, if you set timing at 7.5 BTDC, then with it disconnected you’ll probably see closer to BDC or lower for non vacuum timing. Which will make it run especially rough.
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tasb
The Distributor Distributor
Joined: April 27, 2002
Posts: 6371
Location: Pentwater, Michigan
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| Posted: Mon Dec 16, 2019 1:39 pm Post subject: Re: 1961 Beetle, 28Pict Carb, what Dizzy? |
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On a vacuum only distributor it is not recommended or necessary to disconnect the vacuum line. Set your distributor timing with the engine static not running. On a stock 40 horse you should have a divit in the crankshaft pulley for 10 degrees BTDC. The second step is with the engine running at full throttle, verify that it is not advancing past 32 degrees of advance and you are done.
Your points plate may be sticking due to dried up grease causing it to bind at times and work fine at other times.
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1957 Kombi low mileage 36 hp governor equipped M 178 Slow Drag Winner 2014, 2015, 2018
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txasylum
Samba Member
Joined: December 15, 2004
Posts: 389
Location: Boyers, PA
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| Posted: Mon Dec 16, 2019 5:36 pm Post subject: Re: 1961 Beetle, 28Pict Carb, what Dizzy? |
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I did a static timing, but now I can't get the car to start. No even trying to start or fire. Wondering if I'm getting a spark now. I did check points and used sand. paper to clean them up. It tried to fire one time, but now back to nothing.
| tasb wrote: |
On a vacuum only distributor it is not recommended or necessary to disconnect the vacuum line. Set your distributor timing with the engine static not running. On a stock 40 horse you should have a divit in the crankshaft pulley for 10 degrees BTDC. The second step is with the engine running at full throttle, verify that it is not advancing past 32 degrees of advance and you are done.
Your points plate may be sticking due to dried up grease causing it to bind at times and work fine at other times. |
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flyboy161
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Location: Perry, GA
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| Posted: Mon Dec 16, 2019 8:43 pm Post subject: Re: 1961 Beetle, 28Pict Carb, what Dizzy? |
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Assuming you can use an ohm meter- Touch leads together, read resistance. Whatever it is that is built in meter resistance and that number should be subtracted from any readings you get. Most of what you are gonna do here is open or closed circuit so its not too critical.
1. To check the condenser: disconnect the condenser wire from the coil. Hold your lead to the end of the wire and ground the other lead. Points closed, continuity that gradually increases to infinity (open). Reverse the leads, same reading 0- infinity. Condenser good. Anything else condenser bad.
2. Check the point resistance, since you sanded them: Points closed 0. Points open infinity.
3. You had a hot choke wire: Reconnect the condenser wire. Switch ignition on, don't crank. Switch meter to volts. 6/12 volts at the coil terminal feeding the choke. Points open 6/12 volts at the condenser wire. Points closed, 0 volts at condenser wire. Ignition off.
4. Check the coil: Disconnect and remove coil from the car. Terminals are marked 15 and 1 or + and -. For the sake of clarity 15 is positive and 1 is negative. Set meter to ohms. Read terminal 1 to 15
•A reading of at least 3 - 4.5 ohms, indicates a good coil.
•A bad coil will show a higher reading then 3 - 4.5 ohms.
•Place the red or black lead from the meter to the center of the coil (secondary post), and to either one of the terminals, 1 or 15 on the coil.
•A reading of 9,500 - 10,000 Ohms, sometimes less, indicates a good coil.
•A reading of 11,000 Ohms or more, or a reading of zero indicates a bad coil.
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http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=603879
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http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=612776
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http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=611483 |
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pastellgreen
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| Posted: Tue Dec 17, 2019 2:39 am Post subject: Re: 1961 Beetle, 28Pict Carb, what Dizzy? |
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| tasb wrote: |
On a vacuum only distributor it is not recommended or necessary to disconnect the vacuum line. Set your distributor timing with the engine static not running. On a stock 40 horse you should have a divit in the crankshaft pulley for 10 degrees BTDC. The second step is with the engine running at full throttle, verify that it is not advancing past 32 degrees of advance and you are done.
Your points plate may be sticking due to dried up grease causing it to bind at times and work fine at other times. |
Yes, for a stock 1961, you have to set the timing on 10 degrees, the right mark on the pulley if there are two marks close to each other. If you do static timing, it really is not necessary to disconect the vacuum line. But if you use a stroboscope without any possibillity to switch the degrees, you necessary have to disconnect it if you only work with the DC!
If a engine does not run well, I always recommend to observe the rule: First: valve setting (stock 1961 engine: 0,2mm); second: timing; third: carb setting. You will find a detailed instruction of every step in the original manual belonging to the model and type of car you have. |
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txasylum
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Location: Boyers, PA
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| Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2019 3:48 am Post subject: Re: 1961 Beetle, 28Pict Carb, what Dizzy? |
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I have two divits on flywheel. I did static timing to the first divit and case crack. However, when I run the motor and check it with the timing light it is up around 30 degrees, I'm guessing. It is a couple inches from the first divit I static timed it to. If I recall, when I took the vacuum off while running it dropped it back down toward the static timing mark.
Does this sound correct?
| tasb wrote: |
On a vacuum only distributor it is not recommended or necessary to disconnect the vacuum line. Set your distributor timing with the engine static not running. On a stock 40 horse you should have a divit in the crankshaft pulley for 10 degrees BTDC. The second step is with the engine running at full throttle, verify that it is not advancing past 32 degrees of advance and you are done.
Your points plate may be sticking due to dried up grease causing it to bind at times and work fine at other times. |
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flyboy161
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