No juice to the fuel pump on 1985

[levi]

Late 85 with a 1.8t

Electrical dummy here, running out of ideas.

I might even have to learn how to use one of the 2 volt ohm meters that I have bought, but I'm totally colorblind.

Been down for 3 months so far.

Began with a no start one morning.
The previous few days were tough first starts.

Engine would turn over several times without a hint of firing, key off, key on and it would start.
Once warm it would always start right up.

Found I was not getting fuel.

Popped in one of my known good spare fuel pumps, and still nothing.

Put an extra line on the end of the pump and ran it into a bucket with the wires still connected to the pump at positive and ground.

With the key on but not to the start position no fuel pumps and there's no sound from the pump, BUT if I run a wire from the positive battery terminal to the positive at the fuel pump I get fuel.

So apparently I'm not getting juice to the positive fuel pump terminal.

I've replaced the fuel relay with a spare and a new relay, in case the spare relay was bad.

I've replaced the ecu with a known good spare.

I've replaced the ignition switch with a spare and a new one in case the spare was bad. I've got lots of spares cause I'm real talented at replacing parts.

All the fuses in the bracket appear good.
Although I haven't fooled with any of the big cube fuses or relays or whatever they above and behind the main fuse panel.

I would REALLY like to avoid towing this to a shop since the last time I did that Wolf charged me 470 to reconnect the wiring that had been cut when the the druggies hotwired my van a couple years ago. He did also wire in a kill switch though.

Unless there's some other relay or fuses, I'm guessing that I must have a break in a wire.?
_________________
One of these days I'm gonna settle down,
but till I do I won't be hangin round.
Going down that long lonesome highway,
gonna see life my way

https://youtu.be/cSrL0BXsO40

[Vanagon Nut]

[levi]

Thanks Neil.

Forgot to mention I did swap out the kill switch.

I do have a fuel relay switch from the 99 passat 1.8t wired in.
I don't know if it's a power relay, or how it functions.

I hadn't even thought of trying to start the engine with the wire to the battery, I've just been focused on why I don't have power to the pump.
Got to try that.
_________________
One of these days I'm gonna settle down,
but till I do I won't be hangin round.
Going down that long lonesome highway,
gonna see life my way

https://youtu.be/cSrL0BXsO40

[E1]

Got nothing beyond wishing you luck, Levi.

I was going to mention swapping both relays with matching ones but sounds like you did at least one. I once solved a now-forgotten starting glitch by replacing them both. Dunno if their being mismatched meant anything, but they were...
_________________
‘84 Westy, 2.1L with Digijet, 5.43 R+P, GT Gears
"Adding power makes you faster on the straights.
Subtracting weight makes you faster everywhere."
— Colin Chapman

[Vanagon Nut]

[levi]

Hi Neil.

Yes, good spark.
And yes, I'm going to try starting the engine with a wire direct from the positive terminal at the battery to positive terminal at the pump for fuel.

Not going to drive anywhere with it hooked up like that, although I suppose I could temporarily, but I want to find the issue and take care of it.
Hopefully even learn something in the process.
That would be nice.
My level of understanding is below rudimentary with anything electronic.

With the old wbx I remember jumping #30 + #87 at one of the relays but I don't know how this system works.
_________________
One of these days I'm gonna settle down,
but till I do I won't be hangin round.
Going down that long lonesome highway,
gonna see life my way

https://youtu.be/cSrL0BXsO40

[danfromsyr]

what year/model is your 1.8T swap?
in my 99 AEB the MAF caused me a half a season of grief with hard/difficult starts. I finally hit it with the parts cannon and bought a $25 MAF from fleabay.. Vroom... and since I couldn't trust a $25 MAF.. I bought a 2nd..
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trk...p;_sacat=0

as for your fuel pump goose chase...

there is no power to the pump when you "just have the Key turned ON''
the motor needs to be rotating for the ECU to trigger the Fuel pump relay via a GND connection from the relay to the ECU.

grab a friend or wedge your cell phone on record down by the fuel pump and give it a go at cranking.. should hear/feel it.

you will have some issue on the 1st starts after changing the pump, with it being air bound.. I know I did when I changed mine on the side of the road.. had to loosen the pressurized side clamp to let the air purge out.. it didn't want to go thru the pressure regulator.

a handy electrical tester I like to carry is the old early van door buzzer..
it's a 2 pin relay. I use alligator clips and hook 1 pin to the suspected/hopeful power source and the other pin to a chassis GND
it'll buzz to verify if/when power is applied to the circuit to know if you are good or not.
I just mention this because color isn't really required for most electrical. the terminals on the fuel pump are labeled with little + & - and the fuel pump GND wire is screwed into the chassis.

[levi]

Hey Dan, I do have a 1999 aeb.
It's one of Andrews reversed.
But I'd swear I've heard the pump prime many times when turning the key to the on position before starting, and it isn't now.

Of course I've been wrong about a million times before when I was ready to swear to something but hey, I'd love it if this has just been a 3 week goose chase, and I like that 2 pin door chime relay too. Have to get one. That'd be handy.

I've already ordered another maf couple days ago from fleabay, getting here tomorrow!

I had a couple other maf's already that I've switched out, cleaned with maf cleaner. But it's Tough to know if they're no good or if it's another issue, and then I got derailed believing I had a fuel delivery problem. Haha, that's too funny, I really hope that's it.

And I was just watching video a couple days ago showing how this maf can respond correctly within one of the required values but not others.
_________________
One of these days I'm gonna settle down,
but till I do I won't be hangin round.
Going down that long lonesome highway,
gonna see life my way

https://youtu.be/cSrL0BXsO40

[Vanagon Nut]

[danfromsyr]

indeed, hot wire the fuel pump and see if the behavior changes..
if you get instant starts then look into that power path

in my case the MAF would eventually start the van but took many attempts.. I was blaming batteries and other components.. hot swapping temp-II and such
we hooked to a VAG COM with my VW mech friend and no joy.. MAF looked fine on VAG COM.

so I carry a MAF.. in my spares..

[Vanagon Nut]

[levi]

https://youtu.be/QaG76nHAr8M

Above is the vid I mentioned, pretty interesting.

I guess the maf can fail in multiple ways, maybe giving a variety of types of issues.

My own experience;
When I first installed this engine I bought a brand new maf along with other new parts/sensors that I wanted with a new-to-me conversion.

With everything done I fired it up and went for a ride.
1 block and it died.
Similar to what Dan said above.
It would start up, get a half block and die.
Crank and crank, eventually starting, sometimes 1 block, sometimes 2, then die.

I replaced everything, trying after each component, and when I got to the maf, no more problems until recently.

Recently it's been sometimes instant start first thing in the morning, but sometimes 10 or 20 attempts.

Anyways, this time I should have remembered that first time (but the symptoms were different, I said to myself !)

And tomorrow I get the other maf.

Thanks guys.
I'll let you know of course what happens.
_________________
One of these days I'm gonna settle down,
but till I do I won't be hangin round.
Going down that long lonesome highway,
gonna see life my way

https://youtu.be/cSrL0BXsO40

[skills@eurocarsplus]

sounds like you're loading the parts cannon here...why not some diag first?

every car with a maf WILL start and run with it disconnected. it's in the logic of the ECU. it will have poor performance but will run.

sounds to me that you have a wiring/relay issue. the ECU grounds the relay for initial prime and will keep ground applied once it senses RPM.

so either you have bad wiring/relay or your ECU is dead (or at least shorted on that pin) I suspect a wiring issue related to either the harness or the van. those ECUs are pretty bulletproof, but if a o2 sensor shorts, say goodbye to your ECU
_________________

[levi]

Well, I didn't do any diagnostics first because I don't know how.

So then if you say "Take it to a shop, have a pro do it" but I'm not able to pay 1500 or whatever that they'll charge.
Like i said in the first post, the guy charged almost 500 to reconnect a few wires.

Loaded parts canon is way, way cheaper than that.

I do appreciate any and all feedback even if it's to say I'm a dummy (where's T.K.?) I readily admit that. All good.

I know you didn't say that and I'm not suggesting you inferred it. I'm the one saying it.
I know I'll get it eventually.
_________________
One of these days I'm gonna settle down,
but till I do I won't be hangin round.
Going down that long lonesome highway,
gonna see life my way

https://youtu.be/cSrL0BXsO40

[Vanagon Nut]

[danfromsyr]

has your intake system sprung a leak.. ie a intake tube popped off from between the AFM & the throttle body..
I had this happen on mine and it's a no go situation.

check the fitment of all of your intake hoses. make sure they are seated fully and the clamps are tight.


do you at least have a OBD-II blue tooth reader?
the ELM OBD-II blue tooth adapters are ~10 shipped.
Torque APP is free but I have the $5 paid version.. it's worth the $5 to me..
https://www.google.com/search?q=elm327+obdii&r...p;ie=UTF-8
this would tell you the actual values of the ECU temp-II sensor.
and allow to read/clear codes then read new ones.

[levi]

Thanks guys.

Yes, I do have a reader, obdlink mx. I wish it was only 10 bucks.
And the paid torque pro app, but it stopped working for me about a month ago when they had an update.

There's a bluedriver out, looks like it gives a lot more info.
Don't know if any of the info they read would help with my particular set of issues, but it looks interesting.
Anybody using one?

From the comments folks are leaving on the app site, I wasn't the only one unable to use Torque after their update.
I haven't checked recently to see if they have that fixed.

I think I'm going down to the junkyard tomorrow, see if they have a car I can pull the harness from and re-make it.

Ebay MAF went on and I got a lot of skipping and stumbling, with the fuel pump hot-wired, which makes me want to check the timing belt.
I've never heard it sound like this, until today.
I've had a new belt waiting to go on and it's been, I think, 4 and a half years I've been running this setup anyway, so I'll put that new belt on.
_________________
One of these days I'm gonna settle down,
but till I do I won't be hangin round.
Going down that long lonesome highway,
gonna see life my way

https://youtu.be/cSrL0BXsO40

[levi]

There is one item I haven't swapped out yet because I thought it would always be shown in the codes, and that's the crankshaft position sensor.

Reading some information this afternoon that a faulty CPS doesn't ALWAYS show up in the codes.

Oh.

Well that's good because the harness I pulled from the j/yard has the rectangular pin connector I need.
Swap that out tomorrow...
_________________
One of these days I'm gonna settle down,
but till I do I won't be hangin round.
Going down that long lonesome highway,
gonna see life my way

https://youtu.be/cSrL0BXsO40

[xoo00oox]

Hey Levi, Just seeing this thread now. It does sound like the crank sensor is a very good possibility. If that doesn’t take care of it, I’ll send you a bunch of spare minutes parts you can try. Also, make sure the engine/transmission is grounded well to the body. Skills is right, it should start fine with the MAF disconnected.

Andrew-

[Vanagon Nut]