Frozen rear brake drum on 71 Bus

[Phillip3560]

Hi All, I am a newbie to Samba but need advice on how to remove rusted rear brake drums from a 1971 bay window bus. The bus has been sitting for about 10 years and looking at the adjusting star, it is all rusted so brake shoes can't be backed off from drum. I have tried hammering around the drum and apply penetrating oil into the back of the backing plate. Also while the bus was on the ground, I used a very large torque wrench with socket and tried to apply enough torque to castle nut on each wheel to break the drum from the rust---no luck. Also got a gear puller and attached to studs from wheel hub but when I started tightening the gear puller, the axle shaft started moving into the brake drum so I am concerned that I will destroy the axle if I continue with this approach.
Any suggestions or help would be greatly appreciated.

[Abscate]

[hazetguy]

are you just trying to remove the drum? you don't need to remove the castellated nut and hub to do that.
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[SGKent]

the rear axle is two parts. If you didn't remove the big nuts then you have damaged the flange inside the drum. The way mechanics fight it off is to hit the drum with a sledge hammer. If you break it then you break it. Most likely if you pull the nut off and then use the puller you will tear the shoes loose from the backing plate. Most of that stuff you will replace anyway. Typically after you hit the drum with a hammer, and remove the small bolts on its face, you grab the drum and pull. The studs are attached to the flange, not the drum. And the flange is held on by the big nut.
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[Phillip3560]

Thanks for all the replies. I may not have been very clear in what I intended to ask but I’ll try to reply to the comments above:
1. I was actually using the torque wrench as a breaker bar as it can apply up to 600 ft-lbs. In fact, I wasn’t trying to remove the castle nut but was trying to apply enough force to turn the wheel and break the rust bond holding the brake drum on.
2. Yes, the only thing I am trying to accomplish at this point is to remove the rusted on brake drum.
3. I will continue to “hammer away” but my pressing question is if I remove the castle nut and attach a puller that is held by the wheel lug nuts, will I damage the axle, bearings, or CV joint? The puller I want to use is shown in Fig. 8-4 of Bentley manual. This approach may not be the best approach since most of the things I have read indicate using the hammer approach instead. However, using this gear puller would seem to work as long as it does not damage the axle.

[SGKent]

if the nut is off, it will pull the shoes and all the hardware attached to it including damaging the backing plate. Try hitting it with two sledges with a solid smack (not a killer smack) at 3 and 9, then at 12 and 6, then at 2 and 7, etc. Work your way around. Make sure the e-brake is released and the cable back into the housing. Your problem may be that the e-brake cable is frozen. You can also turn the adjusters after hitting them with some penetrating oil. Use a punch to turn them. the adjusters are a regular right hand thread so the stars move in different directions depending on which star it is.
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[Phillip3560]

Well after 4.5 hours and a lot of cussing and discussing, I was able to remove one of the brake drums. As many of you suggested, using a hammer at various locations on the face of the brake drum as well as using a screw driver to lever the drum off against the backing plate seemed to work. I was gentle when levering since I didn't want to ruin the backing plate. Once the brake drum was not in contact with the backing plate it was just a matter of rocking it back and forth for a LONG time to get it to release. One of the brake linings is still stuck to the brake drum. Thanks to all for your comments and I'm sure as I run into other problems with this restoration, I'll be in touch.

Phillip

[Wildthings]

You can try using a punch through the brake lining inspection hole to break the shoe loose from the drum. If you remove the drive shaft, you can just drive the axle out and this will leave the drum held in place only by the shoes. Having a nice oak board to wail on with your sledge may help. It doesn't get much mention on The Samba, but a lead hammer would do well here.

[Phillip3560]

Well I finally was able to remove rear brake drums and brake shoes from both sides but the star wheel adjusters were stuck. Except, one of them came out really easy and I noticed that it was made of a copper alloy---maybe bronze. The other three appeared to be galvanized steel and were rusted but I was able to get them out with lots of penetrating oil and some hammerology. My questions is, were the original star wheel adjusters made of bronze? I'm pretty sure the replacement ones I ordered will be steel.

Second questions is, I broke two of the brake adjusting springs or they were so corroded that they just fell off. These are the springs at the bottom of the backing plate that keeps the star wheel adjusters from backing off. So----how do you replace these springs? Do they just fit into a channel or are they spot welded on?

[Abscate]

The springs aren’t attached to the backing plate, so if they were stuck that was just rust. Obably a good sign to buy new hardware , too.

Mild steel hardware is fine, just dollop up the rotating part with Good moly grease to keep them moving smoothly. Remove any corrosion with a Dremel ( quick) or lots of tedious wire brushing
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[SGKent]

the star adjusting springs that are available don't fit all backing plates correctly. They are put into a little slot and then the steel folded over them. If you dremel them out there is no steel to fold over a second time. Some folks spot weld them on if you can find someone selling them still. If you replace the backing plates with new one you also have to change the spacer inside the axle or they will rub.
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[busdaddy]

If you are slightly krafty you can make your own springs out of the steel strapping used to bundle lumber and other bulk loads, it's got more springyness than plain steel. If the edges of the slot it goes in on the adjuster block are gone a 3/32 pop rivet or a drilled and tapped hole for a machine screw holds it on well. Even mild steel will work, they don't deflect that much, if you put the V bend on each end to stay between the stars they will flex enough to stay once adjusted. A slightly opened vise jaw and a dull chisel is a good way to put the V in the ends, lay it lengthwise with the slot and whack it down into the groove..
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[Phillip3560]

The new star adjusting springs I received seem to be the size I need for my backing plate. I was able to remove the old one but have not had much luck installing the new one. I don't know how to weld so I am going to try putting a V in the center of the spring to reduce it's width and once installed (hopefully), I'll use a punch to flatten the spring out to fit into the groove better. If that doesn't work I'll definitely try the put one in using a screw. Thanks for the feedback.

[SGKent]

[Phillip3560]

After a year of recovering from surgery, I am back to restoring my bus. As soon as I get the mustache bar back in I will be moving to the brakes again. I have installed new rear brake shoes but I see different values for what the castle nut should be torqued to. Some say 217 ft-lbs others say 247 minimum so I am seeking advice. Also, this bus has been sitting for 10+ years so do I need to replace brake lines too or just inspect them? I have replaced shoes and wheel cylinders thus far.

[kreemoweet]

217 ft-lbs is for the smaller Beetle axle nuts. Bus nuts get at least 253 ft-lbs. If you get
the Vanagon 10-slot axle nuts, they call for 360 ft-lbs.

The rubber flexible brake lines are probably due for replacement. Some metal lines are
highly corrosion-resistant. Check 'em out.
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[airschooled]

After torquing, be aware that there are several “next cotter pin holes” so you don’t have to go more than 1/8 of a turn for final torque. I think wildthings pointed out the Vanagon has more pin slots, so while initial torque may be higher, the final torque of a bay nut may actually be higher still because you’ll need to advance it slightly more. Point is, don’t advance more than you need to, and always check torque after 200 or so miles. Any time I have the rear hubcaps off, I always wiggle the cotter pin; if it used to wiggle and it doesn’t anymore, the nut could be backing off.

Good luck,
Robbie
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[aeromech]

I have never owned a torque wrench that went all the way up to 250 ft lbs. For me, I have a big ass 1 inch drive Mac impact gun run off of about 130 psi. It has never failed me when removing an axle nut and after using these tools for 40 plus years I’m pretty sure I get the axle nuts tight enough by feel. I have used 4 foot long torque wrenches on big aircraft but never felt that spending hundreds of dollars on one to torque VW gland nuts was money well spent. Your experience may vary
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[airschooled]

I spent sixteen bucks on a breaker bar and a cold one.

If you weigh // stand this far from the socket:
125 lbs // 24”
175 lbs // 17”
250 // 12”
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[Abscate]

The rear wheel castellated nut is not a critical torque application. It needs to be tight enough to not fall off. A 24 inch breaker and then advancing to the next slot will do the deed.

In a 2500 mile US loop in 1986, I removed and installed mine with a hammer and punch in Elko NV and drove home to NY.
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