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Tram
Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003
Posts: 22728
Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
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 Posted: Sun Jul 26, 2020 11:41 am Post subject: Re: My 1970 Elm Green Squareback (Joann) |
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| Ceckert64 wrote: |
Not much to update, Joann’s running great, I’m getting closer to having put 3,000 miles on so far, I’ve just had to replace a headlight and the windshield washer hose since the last update, it blew out on me while driving leaking down onto my leg  it only took the washer line blowing out 3-4 times before I finally replaced it 
The only thing is that when I let it sit overnight and start it up early in the morning, the engine sometimes runs really rough and jerky for the first 1/4 mile then it runs like fine again, is it just warming up? It’s when I’m first accelerating it almost feels like I’m lugging the car but I’m not. It’s only happened 3
2-3 time though. Once I get up 35mph it goes away and it never happens again on the rest of the drive. Is it just the quirks of 50 year old FI or a bigger issue? Thanks! |
Make sure your point gap hasn't changed, then check your fuel pressure. Should be 28 PSI. If that passes- how old is the battery? Check voltage and load test it after an overnight rest. Our D-Jet FI systems do NOT like low voltage. The fact that it straightens out after driving tells me it's likely not a charging system issue, though it doesn't hurt to test that also.
What plugs are you running? If Bosch Platinum or ANYTHING other than copper core non resistors changing plugs is the first order of business. I have had the best luck with NGK B5HS.
Other possibilities are temp sensor 1 or 2 beginning to go out of spec cold, oil fouling on the trigger points (VW recommended pulling and cleaning these every 15K) and oil in the MAP sensor (VW never had a recommendation on this but disassemble it and check it). The copper diaphragm in it may be starting to fatigue around the rim causing a cold vacuum leak.
Your AAR valve may be a source of the problem- gummed up inside and not closing all the way.
I need to photo and put the K Manual FI pages in my Gallery when I get time. Always had it parked on Photophuckit for reference, but then... yeah.  Scumbags.
Getting back to the MAP- the 1970-72 C and D models have started developing problems with copper diaphragm fatigue along the rim. This can be fixed TEMPORARILY with a thin coat of clear silicone adhesive sealant on both sides of the crack, but a better solution is to get a spare tested MAP or 2 and get a new diaphragm. Someone was selling these for the same Bosch part number sensor for 914s but I can't find the link now. Automobile Atlanta overhauls them and sells them- some even have the Type 3 number.
http://www.autoatlanta.com/Porsche-914-Pressure-Sensor-srch.html
If you ever need any FI stuff contact me- I have tons!
_________________
Немає виправдання для війни! Я з Україною.
| Bryan67 wrote: |
| Just my hands. And a little lube. No tools. |
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Ceckert64
Samba Member
Joined: September 16, 2015
Posts: 1963
Location: Manitowoc, WI
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| Posted: Sun Jul 26, 2020 12:56 pm Post subject: Re: My 1970 Elm Green Squareback (Joann) |
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| Tram wrote: |
| Ceckert64 wrote: |
Not much to update, Joann’s running great, I’m getting closer to having put 3,000 miles on so far, I’ve just had to replace a headlight and the windshield washer hose since the last update, it blew out on me while driving leaking down onto my leg it only took the washer line blowing out 3-4 times before I finally replaced it
The only thing is that when I let it sit overnight and start it up early in the morning, the engine sometimes runs really rough and jerky for the first 1/4 mile then it runs like fine again, is it just warming up? It’s when I’m first accelerating it almost feels like I’m lugging the car but I’m not. It’s only happened 3
2-3 time though. Once I get up 35mph it goes away and it never happens again on the rest of the drive. Is it just the quirks of 50 year old FI or a bigger issue? Thanks! |
Make sure your point gap hasn't changed, then check your fuel pressure. Should be 28 PSI. If that passes- how old is the battery? Check voltage and load test it after an overnight rest. Our D-Jet FI systems do NOT like low voltage. The fact that it straightens out after driving tells me it's likely not a charging system issue, though it doesn't hurt to test that also.
What plugs are you running? If Bosch Platinum or ANYTHING other than copper core non resistors changing plugs is the first order of business. I have had the best luck with NGK B5HS.
Other possibilities are temp sensor 1 or 2 beginning to go out of spec cold, oil fouling on the trigger points (VW recommended pulling and cleaning these every 15K) and oil in the MAP sensor (VW never had a recommendation on this but disassemble it and check it). The copper diaphragm in it may be starting to fatigue around the rim causing a cold vacuum leak.
Your AAR valve may be a source of the problem- gummed up inside and not closing all the way.
I need to photo and put the K Manual FI pages in my Gallery when I get time. Always had it parked on Photophuckit for reference, but then... yeah. Scumbags.
Getting back to the MAP- the 1970-72 C and D models have started developing problems with copper diaphragm fatigue along the rim. This can be fixed TEMPORARILY with a thin coat of clear silicone adhesive sealant on both sides of the crack, but a better solution is to get a spare tested MAP or 2 and get a new diaphragm. Someone was selling these for the same Bosch part number sensor for 914s but I can't find the link now. Automobile Atlanta overhauls them and sells them- some even have the Type 3 number.
http://www.autoatlanta.com/Porsche-914-Pressure-Sensor-srch.html
If you ever need any FI stuff contact me- I have tons! |
The battery is 3-4 years old, it’s an interstate Marine/RV battery, I will check, the charging system is phenomenal on this car I will say. I will share my stupid story... so a few weeks ago I started working on a farm for the summer and got there early in the morning so I had headlights on, well, I got there and forgot to turn the headlights off and realized it 7 hours later There was still some juice in the battery because the dash lifts seemed super dim and the starter made a humming noise, I was puzzled and realized I had left my lights on all day  I thought I was screwed and was going to have to take the battery out and charge it or something since I didn’t think I had enough for FI. But, I ended up getting someone to help me push start it, first try, no, seconds try it coughed, a sputter, and then it came to life and was running fine, I drove 5-10miles to get gas and it had already charged enough to start it with the starter again. So, I will check the voltage, I think is has 400-500 cold cranking amps.
I will check fuel pressure again, I may have an issue with the pressure valve on my fuel pump so I’m not sure if it hold pressure after I shut it off.
They may be resistor type plugs, didn’t know that... I’m not positive what they are, I will check.
For the temp sensors, it is checking for a resistance value correct?
The trigger points should be good, I just had the distributor apart 3k miles ago when I did my engine refresh, I cleaned trigger points, lubed them. I had to replace the distributor then because it had self destructed the mechanical advance, I think that’s why it had been parked for the last 44 years 
I will look at the MAP, it’s never been touched by me and there was never any engine work done to it, I have never even taken it out so it probably hasn’t been touched since the factory installed it. I will check it out!
I will check the AAR, I haven’t messed with it yet, just put a new gasket under it and new lines.
I think I’m good on FI parts, I’ve had my car 7months and already have almost 2+ spares for every part, at least one for sure
Thanks for the help, your FI sticky helped get my system going, the part where if it’s been sitting a long time (Is sitting for 44 years a long enough time? )
_________________
1964 sunroof Beetle Restoration "Herbie"
“Joann” 1970 Elm Green Squareback
1972 Sierra Yellow Tin Top Westfalia Camper
“Fitz” 1971 Westfalia Poptop |
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Ceckert64
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Ceckert64
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Tram
Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003
Posts: 22728
Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
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| Posted: Sun Jul 26, 2020 2:07 pm Post subject: Re: My 1970 Elm Green Squareback (Joann) |
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| Ceckert64 wrote: |
| My spark plugs are NGK BR6HS, so resistor style, correct?. Also, should I use the original spark plug wire end pieces, the ones that come out sideways vs straight up from the distributor cap? |
Those plugs are my second choice, so I think you are OK there. Platins and other "hotrod" style plugs seem to cause a rash of driveability complaints in older German cars. On OBD or OBDII management systems they are fine, but not much good in previous generation systems, even though parts suppliers push the bejesus out of these things.
_________________
Немає виправдання для війни! Я з Україною.
| Bryan67 wrote: |
| Just my hands. And a little lube. No tools. |
To best contact me, please use the EMAIL function in my profile |
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Bobnotch
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 22431
Location: Kimball, Mi
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| Posted: Sun Jul 26, 2020 2:48 pm Post subject: Re: My 1970 Elm Green Squareback (Joann) |
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| Ceckert64 wrote: |
| Also, should I use the original spark plug wire end pieces, the ones that come out sideways vs straight up from the distributor cap? |
If you're talking about the OE angled screw on ends, YES, keep those and change the wire (copper core) and the plug ends (have a resistor built into them, so ohm them out to make sure they're electrically good.
_________________
Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
| Tram wrote: |
| "Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
| Tram wrote: |
| People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
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Ceckert64
Samba Member
Joined: September 16, 2015
Posts: 1963
Location: Manitowoc, WI
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| Posted: Sun Jul 26, 2020 3:24 pm Post subject: Re: My 1970 Elm Green Squareback (Joann) |
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| Tram wrote: |
| Ceckert64 wrote: |
| My spark plugs are NGK BR6HS, so resistor style, correct?. Also, should I use the original spark plug wire end pieces, the ones that come out sideways vs straight up from the distributor cap? |
Those plugs are my second choice, so I think you are OK there. Platins and other "hotrod" style plugs seem to cause a rash of driveability complaints in older German cars. On OBD or OBDII management systems they are fine, but not much good in previous generation systems, even though parts suppliers push the bejesus out of these things. |
Okay, thanks! The one I pulled was light tan, so that’s good. I need to do a compression test too.
| Bobnotch wrote: |
| Ceckert64 wrote: |
| Also, should I use the original spark plug wire end pieces, the ones that come out sideways vs straight up from the distributor cap? |
If you're talking about the OE angled screw on ends, YES, keep those and change the wire (copper core) and the plug ends (have a resistor built into them, so ohm them out to make sure they're electrically good. |
Thanks, the new plug wires I have have the plug ends, should I use the original ends? I had replaced the original wires since I’m guessing that the fact they were so hard the held their shape wasn’t goo
I opened the map, all looks good, the diaphragm looks good, no crack. The worst was a little sludge which I cleaned out.
I did a fuel pressure test, it is 28 psi, but after the pump in shut off it goes to zero, I think the pressure valve plunger is sticking. I have two other pumps that I will try to fix them, I had lost the plunger and springs for a while, I had them in a bag, I thought the bag was in a bag in Joann, but I couldn’t find it, I looked again today and found them  I cleaned up the bore in the pressure head with 800 grit sand paper. I know I probably should just replace the pump with a modern one, but what challenge would that be. I also was bored earlier today and rebuilt one of my spare distributors, the A-B style.
Also, when I start it up when it’s cold, it runs really bad like a cylinder or two isn’t firing, I have to rev it a few times, at first it doesn’t even want to rev up for the first one or two revs, when that happens, it’s followed by the issue on taking off also, but not always.
_________________
1964 sunroof Beetle Restoration "Herbie"
“Joann” 1970 Elm Green Squareback
1972 Sierra Yellow Tin Top Westfalia Camper
“Fitz” 1971 Westfalia Poptop |
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Ceckert64
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Joined: September 16, 2015
Posts: 1963
Location: Manitowoc, WI
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| Posted: Sun Jul 26, 2020 8:27 pm Post subject: Re: My 1970 Elm Green Squareback (Joann) |
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So I just remembered, the weird jerky start up and driving seem to have started after the idle dropped. It had been fine and adjust for a long time, then one day it just started idling a lot low and started to die at idle sometimes, so I adjusted it up a bit to just stop it from dying and didn’t do it warm to 850rpm. It’s currently idling a bit higher so I need to adjust it, but I’m wondering what cause it to just start idling lower by itself the one day? Could what ever caused that be causing the issues now? Would having the idle adjusted higher be causing the issues? I will try adjusting that. I did a compression test while it was still hot just to see where it was at since I hadn’t tested it yet. Cylinder 1: 128psi 2: 135psi 3: 125psi 4: 135. The front two cylinders were a bit low but not bad, 10psi difference isn’t horrible is it? All the spark plugs were light brown so that’s good, I’m averaging 28.5mpg. Was there somewhere else in the map I should clean? I put the original spark plug wire ends that go into the distributor cap too, the engine started up and did the running rough where there was the hesitation to rev up for the first few revs, it’s hard to describe, I will try to get a video. But it didn’t act weird on acceleration. Im hoping that will help. I will regal spark plugs tomorrow and do a cold compression test.
_________________
1964 sunroof Beetle Restoration "Herbie"
“Joann” 1970 Elm Green Squareback
1972 Sierra Yellow Tin Top Westfalia Camper
“Fitz” 1971 Westfalia Poptop |
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Tram
Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003
Posts: 22728
Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
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| Posted: Sun Jul 26, 2020 8:33 pm Post subject: Re: My 1970 Elm Green Squareback (Joann) |
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| Ceckert64 wrote: |
| So I just remembered, the weird jerky start up and driving seem to have started after the idle dropped. It had been fine and adjust for a long time, then one day it just started idling a lot low and started to die at idle sometimes, so I adjusted it up a bit to just stop it from dying and didn’t do it warm to 850rpm. It’s currently idling a bit higher so I need to adjust it, but I’m wondering what cause it to just start idling lower by itself the one day? Could what ever caused that be causing the issues now? Would having the idle adjusted higher be causing the issues? I will try adjusting that. I did a compression test while it was still hot just to see where it was at since I hadn’t tested it yet. Cylinder 1: 128psi 2: 135psi 3: 125psi 4: 135. The front two cylinders were a bit low but not bad, 10psi difference isn’t horrible is it? All the spark plugs were light brown so that’s good, I’m averaging 28.5mpg. Was there somewhere else in the map I should clean? I put the original spark plug wire ends that go into the distributor cap too, the engine started up and did the running rough where there was the hesitation to rev up for the first few revs, it’s hard to describe, I will try to get a video. But it didn’t act weird on acceleration. Im hoping that will help. I will regal spark plugs tomorrow and do a cold compression test. |
Yes. Points are the #1 suspect! Clean and regap.
_________________
Немає виправдання для війни! Я з Україною.
| Bryan67 wrote: |
| Just my hands. And a little lube. No tools. |
To best contact me, please use the EMAIL function in my profile |
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Ceckert64
Samba Member
Joined: September 16, 2015
Posts: 1963
Location: Manitowoc, WI
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Ceckert64
Samba Member
Joined: September 16, 2015
Posts: 1963
Location: Manitowoc, WI
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| Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2020 12:55 pm Post subject: Re: My 1970 Elm Green Squareback (Joann) |
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Checked points this morning, the dwell was 49.5, and there was no crud on them I then ran 800 grit sand paper through them once just to clean it up. I’m not sure if I fixed the issue because it was running a new kinda of off, but it seemed completely different, anyways when I was doing the compression test I knocked off and injector wire. Then it ran good but when I first started it up it was not firing on one cylinder so couldn’t tell if the original issue it there. I also adjust idle back down to 850 rpm after going into town to get welding gas (20-30 mile round trip) it seemed to be idling good at lower. Then, I realized the oil light was flickering at idle  so I guess I need thicker oil. I’m currently running 10w-40 oil. So I will see if I’ve fixed one of the issues. I also gapped plugs this morning. So I will have to see how it runs cold. Thanks for the help so far.
_________________
1964 sunroof Beetle Restoration "Herbie"
“Joann” 1970 Elm Green Squareback
1972 Sierra Yellow Tin Top Westfalia Camper
“Fitz” 1971 Westfalia Poptop |
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Bobnotch
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 22431
Location: Kimball, Mi
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| Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2020 8:17 pm Post subject: Re: My 1970 Elm Green Squareback (Joann) |
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| Ceckert64 wrote: |
I did a fuel pressure test, it is 28 psi, but after the pump in shut off it goes to zero, |
| Bobnotch wrote: |
| Ceckert64 wrote: |
| Also, should I use the original spark plug wire end pieces, the ones that come out sideways vs straight up from the distributor cap? |
If you're talking about the OE angled screw on ends, YES, keep those and change the wire (copper core) and the plug ends (have a resistor built into them, so ohm them I have have the plug ends, should I use the original ends? I had replaced the original wires since I’m guessing that the fact they were so hard the held their shape wasn’t goo
I opened the map, all looks good, the diaphragm looks good, no crack. The worst was a little sludge which I cleaned out. |
At this point, I'd hang on to the old wires, as you know they're still good and could get you home if needed. I'd get some plug wire from Jim Adney, and rebuild the set you have as a spare set. Those old German parts will probably outlast the new ones you just installed.
Cleaning out the MPS is good, and just make sure the seal for the 2 halfs doesn't have any nicks or cuts in it.
_________________
Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
| Tram wrote: |
| "Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
| Tram wrote: |
| People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
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Ceckert64
Samba Member
Joined: September 16, 2015
Posts: 1963
Location: Manitowoc, WI
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Ceckert64
Samba Member
Joined: September 16, 2015
Posts: 1963
Location: Manitowoc, WI
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| Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2020 8:40 pm Post subject: Re: My 1970 Elm Green Squareback (Joann) |
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The cold start issue still hasn’t gone away, I guess it could be simply it needs to be a bit warmer. I have been following the owner’s manual saying to drive off immediately and not let it sit to warm up. My drive way is an 1/8 mile long and I usually go down it pretty slow and a low RPMs, but every once and a while when I start accelerating up to speed it does the cough/jerking. It could be just not warm? This is really my “first VW” in terms of running and driving much, I did my bug a bit but I was too young to drive it when it was driving and then I’ve only driven it up and down our driveway incomplete so I don’t really have much of a good frame of reference.
So a question. I was talking with a friend that’s building a VW plane and he was mentioning in conventional planes the run it for a few minutes to burn the crap off of injectors and how it runs rough. Which leads me to my questions, could lead additive be clogging the injectors, even though they don’t burn off per say, could they be clogged and it takes a little running for them to work it out? Also, do I need lead additive? I know it helps the valves, or am I just buying snake oil and making more of a pain for myself? I just realized I could stop adding octane booster because it was cheaper to buy that than pay for 91 octane but I discovered 91 RON is a different rating system and that’s actually 87 octane.
Also, I’m running some old repro injectors that are alt least 20-30 years old that came in my engine bundle, should I keep running those, run the original ones that are 50 years old but I work, buy new, or get a set redone/ flow tested. Does that help performance/ mpg much?
Thanks!
Just out of curiosity, will anyone be at Barnums’s Bug and buggy show in Millington on September 13th?
_________________
1964 sunroof Beetle Restoration "Herbie"
“Joann” 1970 Elm Green Squareback
1972 Sierra Yellow Tin Top Westfalia Camper
“Fitz” 1971 Westfalia Poptop |
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Mike Fisher
Samba Member
Joined: January 30, 2006
Posts: 17970
Location: Eugene, OR
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| Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2020 10:10 am Post subject: Re: My 1970 Elm Green Squareback (Joann) |
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Mine is fussy to start cold and takes 1-2 miles to warm up, but starts/runs good when it's warmed up.
It's a 50-year-old FI system so don't expect perfection.
Don't set your idle speed so low that it ever dies! 
_________________
https://imgur.com/user/FisherSquareback/posts
69 FI/AT square Daily Driver
66 sunroof,67,70,71,71,71AT,72,72AT,73 Parts
two 57 oval ragtops sold
'68 Karmann Ghia sold
Society is like stew. If you don't keep it stirred up you end up with a lot of scum on the top! - Russ_Wolfe/Edward Abbey |
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Qldelsie
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Joined: September 22, 2019
Posts: 518
Location: Queensland Australia
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| Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2020 5:05 pm Post subject: Re: My 1970 Elm Green Squareback (Joann) |
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Europe uses RON (Random Octane Number) for its octane rating, whereas the USA uses AKI (Anti Knock Index,) which is in fact an average of RON and MON (Motor Octane Number), so RON +MON / 2.
All very confusing when travelling, but basically all you need to remember is that RON is about 4-5 points higher than AKI, so 95 Octane in Europe is about the same as 90-91 Octane fuel in USA.
Then of course in Canada and Alaska they have cold weather additives in fuels in the winter, which threw another curve ball at me when I was driving around up there !
G |
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Ceckert64
Samba Member
Joined: September 16, 2015
Posts: 1963
Location: Manitowoc, WI
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| Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2020 7:41 pm Post subject: Re: My 1970 Elm Green Squareback (Joann) |
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| Mike Fisher wrote: |
Mine is fussy to start cold and takes 1-2 miles to warm up, but starts/runs good when it's warmed up.
It's a 50-year-old FI system so don't expect perfection.
Don't set your idle speed so low that it ever dies! |
Thanks! I just wasn’t sure if that was normal, it runs pretty good once warm so nothing to be to concerned about then I guess. You have a point  it is pretty much the first EFI set up ever so... I need to Realize that part though, but I do like it and it works quite well still for be such new technology at the time. It doesn’t die at idle much, it seems to be fine for weeks and then it will just start dying at idle, it seems to be with atmospheric changes.
| Qldelsie wrote: |
Europe uses RON (Random Octane Number) for its octane rating, whereas the USA uses AKI (Anti Knock Index,) which is in fact an average of RON and MON (Motor Octane Number), so RON +MON / 2.
All very confusing when travelling, but basically all you need to remember is that RON is about 4-5 points higher than AKI, so 95 Octane in Europe is about the same as 90-91 Octane fuel in USA.
Then of course in Canada and Alaska they have cold weather additives in fuels in the winter, which threw another curve ball at me when I was driving around up there !
G |
confusing for sure, all the different units and measurements, if only we went to metric. Good information, I will have to remember that. I think Michigan might get those additives.
So do you guys use lead additive?
_________________
1964 sunroof Beetle Restoration "Herbie"
“Joann” 1970 Elm Green Squareback
1972 Sierra Yellow Tin Top Westfalia Camper
“Fitz” 1971 Westfalia Poptop |
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Ceckert64
Samba Member
Joined: September 16, 2015
Posts: 1963
Location: Manitowoc, WI
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Bobnotch
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Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 22431
Location: Kimball, Mi
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| Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2020 10:04 am Post subject: Re: My 1970 Elm Green Squareback (Joann) |
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| Ceckert64 wrote: |
Okay, I keep forgetting to do this so this is kinda a reminder for myself/ a question. I keep forgetting that I need to reinstall the Master cylinder cover plate because the bolts for it broke off. It serves protection for it but is it that crucial?
Another thing, I like my dash clock and use but it loses at few minutes each and I’m constantly resetting it, is it pretty easy to pull apart and would spray lube help or would I more likely just break something? |
If you're going to "off road" it (farm trails and dirt roads) you'll want to reinstall it. Mainly to guard the switches from flying rocks.
If you want a clock that keeps time, and looks stock, you might want to do a clock conversion. Myself and others have already done this mod. My pics can be found in the gallery, and someone just posted up pics last week of their conversion.
_________________
Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
| Tram wrote: |
| "Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
| Tram wrote: |
| People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
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Ceckert64
Samba Member
Joined: September 16, 2015
Posts: 1963
Location: Manitowoc, WI
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