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1953Volks
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Joined: March 30, 2004
Posts: 239
Location: SO. CAL
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 Posted: Thu Dec 26, 2019 4:16 pm Post subject: Seamed shroud end date ? |
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When is the end date for seamed shrouds on beetles?
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1950 Hoffman 11 G 1-0174999
1953 11G
1955-6 GHIA 1-0925660
1962 DOUBLE CAB
1957 11G
1958 Single cab
1967 camper bus
1959 ragtop 2226460 (in Japan)
1964 Karmann Ghia
1964 Cadillac coupe De Ville (a.k.a. Husslah) |
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Mr. OGPaint
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Joined: September 24, 2010
Posts: 823
Location: Oregon
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| Posted: Thu Dec 26, 2019 8:38 pm Post subject: Re: Seamed shroud end date ? |
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Ended late May/Early June 1952
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Patrick Hall |
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peter schepens
Samba Member
Joined: April 17, 2003
Posts: 1014
Location: belgium Caesars camp
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| Posted: Fri Dec 27, 2019 12:53 am Post subject: Re: Seamed shroud end date ? |
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| Mr. OGPaint wrote: |
| Ended late May/Early June 1952 |
A friend of me has a zwitter from sept... still with the seam. And confident that the car was still original when found 20 years ago.
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Zelensis, glassfibre body made in Belgium , disigned and built on a VW platform About 25 body's built.
Hebmuller info wanted for http://www.hebmueller-registry.com/home.html |
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sled
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2005
Posts: 6179
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| Posted: Fri Dec 27, 2019 8:10 am Post subject: Re: Seamed shroud end date ? |
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| peter schepens wrote: |
| Mr. OGPaint wrote: |
| Ended late May/Early June 1952 |
A friend of me has a zwitter from sept... still with the seam. And confident that the car was still original when found 20 years ago. |
then why are there so many split-dash cars with smooth shrouds? as early as April 1st. Theres no way split windows would be rolling off the assembly line with smooth shrouds and then 6 months later a factory worker installed a seamed shroud on a zwitter engine.
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peter schepens
Samba Member
Joined: April 17, 2003
Posts: 1014
Location: belgium Caesars camp
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| Posted: Fri Dec 27, 2019 12:19 pm Post subject: Re: Seamed shroud end date ? |
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| sled wrote: |
| peter schepens wrote: |
| Mr. OGPaint wrote: |
| Ended late May/Early June 1952 |
A friend of me has a zwitter from sept... still with the seam. And confident that the car was still original when found 20 years ago. |
then why are there so many split-dash cars with smooth shrouds? as early as April 1st. Theres no way split windows would be rolling off the assembly line with smooth shrouds and then 6 months later a factory worker installed a seamed shroud on a zwitter engine. |
Sorry ! I mixed up 2 different cars.. I was wrong on the zwitter but it still has the T- Coffie can filter. 
I was thinking it came with the new fan 14 th oct 52 and change in the fanshroud. From chassis 1-537356.
https://www.brezelfenstervereinigung.de/index.php/...heizsystem
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Zelensis, glassfibre body made in Belgium , disigned and built on a VW platform About 25 body's built.
Hebmuller info wanted for http://www.hebmueller-registry.com/home.html |
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ZENVWDRIVER
Samba Member
Joined: November 07, 2008
Posts: 3340
Location: N.E. Oklahoma
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| Posted: Fri Dec 27, 2019 5:04 pm Post subject: Re: Seamed shroud end date ? |
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| sled wrote: |
| peter schepens wrote: |
| Mr. OGPaint wrote: |
| Ended late May/Early June 1952 |
A friend of me has a zwitter from sept... still with the seam. And confident that the car was still original when found 20 years ago. |
then why are there so many split-dash cars with smooth shrouds? as early as April 1st. Theres no way split windows would be rolling off the assembly line with smooth shrouds and then 6 months later a factory worker installed a seamed shroud on a zwitter engine. |
… according to my inferior source - Car of the Century, by JT Garwood - the seamed shroud ended at engine number1-0481713 and chassis number1-0397023 - that would be roughly at the start of the Zwitter models … meaning, all KDF-dash split 25s, HAD the seamed shroud... my 1950 11G had one... My 11/52 Zwitter, with 25 horse, did not...
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5/50, pastel green 11G - SOLD
8/50, gray 11A Beetle
6/52, pastel green 11C - SOLD
11/4/52, black Zwitter - SOLD to my little bro.
1954 Porsche, pre A, with VW 36 horse- SOLD
1/54, black 11C Beetle - TRADED
2/55 Iceland green Beetle, on a 1965 pan
3/55 113 Beetle, stratos silver
1955 Messerschmitt KR175 - SOLD, sadly
1960 single cab
1962 SO33, with SO 42 interior
9/63 Pacific blue, Ghia
'87 Toyota MR2
'02 WestFORDia E-150, GAVE TO OUR SON
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sled
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2005
Posts: 6179
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| Posted: Fri Dec 27, 2019 6:07 pm Post subject: Re: Seamed shroud end date ? |
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| ZENVWDRIVER wrote: |
[
… according to my inferior source - Car of the Century, by JT Garwood - the seamed shroud ended at engine number1-0481713 and chassis number1-0397023 - |
like you mention, your source is incorrect. I have that book as well and it is FULL of inaccurate information, unfortunately.
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ZENVWDRIVER
Samba Member
Joined: November 07, 2008
Posts: 3340
Location: N.E. Oklahoma
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| Posted: Mon Dec 30, 2019 10:48 am Post subject: Re: Seamed shroud end date ? |
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| ZENVWDRIVER wrote: |
| sled wrote: |
| peter schepens wrote: |
| Mr. OGPaint wrote: |
| Ended late May/Early June 1952 |
A friend of me has a zwitter from sept... still with the seam. And confident that the car was still original when found 20 years ago. |
then why are there so many split-dash cars with smooth shrouds? as early as April 1st. Theres no way split windows would be rolling off the assembly line with smooth shrouds and then 6 months later a factory worker installed a seamed shroud on a zwitter engine. |
… according to my inferior source - Car of the Century, by JT Garwood - the seamed shroud ended at engine number1-0481713 and chassis number1-0397023 - that would be roughly at the start of the Zwitter models … meaning, all KDF-dash split 25s, HAD the seamed shroud... my 1950 11G had one... My 11/52 Zwitter, with 25 horse, did not... |
Sled, now i'm curious too - at what point did the seamed shroud cease?
_________________
5/50, pastel green 11G - SOLD
8/50, gray 11A Beetle
6/52, pastel green 11C - SOLD
11/4/52, black Zwitter - SOLD to my little bro.
1954 Porsche, pre A, with VW 36 horse- SOLD
1/54, black 11C Beetle - TRADED
2/55 Iceland green Beetle, on a 1965 pan
3/55 113 Beetle, stratos silver
1955 Messerschmitt KR175 - SOLD, sadly
1960 single cab
1962 SO33, with SO 42 interior
9/63 Pacific blue, Ghia
'87 Toyota MR2
'02 WestFORDia E-150, GAVE TO OUR SON
All super-heroes, wear a MASK |
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Mr. OGPaint
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Joined: September 24, 2010
Posts: 823
Location: Oregon
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| Posted: Mon Dec 30, 2019 4:28 pm Post subject: Re: Seamed shroud end date ? |
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Seamed shroud ended in early June 1952. I'll try to find my source. My late June 1952 is not supposed to have a seamed shroud (to my great dissappointment), while my May 1952 does (correctly) have the seamed shroud.
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Patrick Hall |
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Mr. OGPaint
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Joined: September 24, 2010
Posts: 823
Location: Oregon
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| Posted: Tue Dec 31, 2019 9:53 am Post subject: Re: Seamed shroud end date ? |
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So, been researching this date..trying to find why I believe that May/June 1952 was the end date of seamed shroud. Which I may be incorrect about.
Unfortunately Progressive Refinements is silent on this subject.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...p;start=40
It was discussed in this thread, page 3, without a consensus being reached. Generally was discribed as ending somewhere between February and May of 1952
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=165130&start=20
Also discussed here.
Previous discussions don't seem to verify exact end date, but it is clear that the seamed shroud was phased out sometime in the first half of 1952. Definitely well before zwitter production began.
It would be great to share pics of verifiable original engines of this time period to really understand when in 1952 this very important and conspicuous early feature was changed.
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ZENVWDRIVER
Samba Member
Joined: November 07, 2008
Posts: 3340
Location: N.E. Oklahoma
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| Posted: Tue Dec 31, 2019 10:31 am Post subject: Re: Seamed shroud end date ? |
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| Mr. OGPaint wrote: |
So, been researching this date..trying to find why I believe that May/June 1952 was the end date of seamed shroud. Which I may be incorrect about.
Unfortunately Progressive Refinements is silent on this subject.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...p;start=40
It was discussed in this thread, page 3, without a consensus being reached. Generally was discribed as ending somewhere between February and May of 1952
… SEEMS vwMADE CHANGES IN THIS ERA, WHEN THEY FIGURED THE LESS EXPENSIVE TECHNOLOGY.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=165130&start=20
Also discussed here.
Previous discussions don't seem to verify exact end date, but it is clear that the seamed shroud was phased out sometime in the first half of 1952. Definitely well before zwitter production began.
It would be great to share pics of verifiable original engines of this time period to really understand when in 1952 this very important and conspicuous early feature was changed. |
Garwood indicated that ch number 497023 was the cut off - that would be in early September, 1952 - I HAD a 6/52 in 1996 and it had no access over the trans and HAD crotch coolers - i'm going to assume Garwood was close to being correct with his ch number indicating the cessation of the shroud seam - i'm cool with close to anything, when exact is unknown. - maybe VW engineers were anticipating all the changes of that time with the Zwitter and started producing the seamless shroud, a few weeks earlier...
| Quote: |
It would be great to share pics of verifiable original engines of this time period to really understand when in 1952 this very important and conspicuous early feature was changed
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I appreciate your unsure admission - i think, we're in the ballpark - the change occurred AROUND the time of the intro of the Zwitter - maybe, in this case, JT Garwood was right-on - think, i'll just go with that.
_________________
5/50, pastel green 11G - SOLD
8/50, gray 11A Beetle
6/52, pastel green 11C - SOLD
11/4/52, black Zwitter - SOLD to my little bro.
1954 Porsche, pre A, with VW 36 horse- SOLD
1/54, black 11C Beetle - TRADED
2/55 Iceland green Beetle, on a 1965 pan
3/55 113 Beetle, stratos silver
1955 Messerschmitt KR175 - SOLD, sadly
1960 single cab
1962 SO33, with SO 42 interior
9/63 Pacific blue, Ghia
'87 Toyota MR2
'02 WestFORDia E-150, GAVE TO OUR SON
All super-heroes, wear a MASK |
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Mr. OGPaint
Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2010
Posts: 823
Location: Oregon
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| Posted: Tue Dec 31, 2019 10:44 am Post subject: Re: Seamed shroud end date ? |
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I don't want to be disagreeable Zen, but in this case I believe the information shows that Garwood missed the mark by several months when he placed this as being a very close to a zwitter change. Lets try to figure out when the actual change came by working together. Garwoods book, was helpful for the time but has been shown to be full of mistakes and really was the foundation of a lot of misinformation that still carries thru to today unfortunately.
Lets work together to find the true time frame of this change.
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Patrick Hall |
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ZENVWDRIVER
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Joined: November 07, 2008
Posts: 3340
Location: N.E. Oklahoma
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| Posted: Tue Dec 31, 2019 10:55 am Post subject: Re: Seamed shroud end date ? |
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| Mr. OGPaint wrote: |
I don't want to be disagreeable Zen, but in this case I believe the information shows that Garwood missed the mark by several months when he placed this as being a very close to a zwitter change. Lets try to figure out when the actual change came by working together. Garwoods book, was helpful for the time but has been shown to be full of mistakes and really was the foundation of a lot of misinformation that still carries thru to today unfortunately.
Lets work together to find the true time frame of this change. |
I really dig your attitude and approach - cool, if we can figure it out - let's go for it - generally, i'm okay with close - thanks.
_________________
5/50, pastel green 11G - SOLD
8/50, gray 11A Beetle
6/52, pastel green 11C - SOLD
11/4/52, black Zwitter - SOLD to my little bro.
1954 Porsche, pre A, with VW 36 horse- SOLD
1/54, black 11C Beetle - TRADED
2/55 Iceland green Beetle, on a 1965 pan
3/55 113 Beetle, stratos silver
1955 Messerschmitt KR175 - SOLD, sadly
1960 single cab
1962 SO33, with SO 42 interior
9/63 Pacific blue, Ghia
'87 Toyota MR2
'02 WestFORDia E-150, GAVE TO OUR SON
All super-heroes, wear a MASK |
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Mr. OGPaint
Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2010
Posts: 823
Location: Oregon
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| Posted: Tue Dec 31, 2019 1:55 pm Post subject: Re: Seamed shroud end date ? |
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Okay. Here are two contributions that I think imply an earlier switch to non seamed shroud than I thought. Some have said in other threads that the change was mid February 1952, these pics imply that may be correct.
On each of these two Beetle, notice that the shroud is smooth top, but has the high location of the generator wiring mounting tabs of an early smooth shroud, a very rare shroud. I think this helps prove that the shroud is original to the car. Both Beetles have original engines and are very original.
Late Feb 1952 chassis and Late Feb 52 engine
Engine # 1-040087
This car was sold by Sothebys in 2017
https://rmsothebys.com/en/auctions/pa17/paris/lots/r137-1952-volkswagen-type-1-beetle/411518
A very original April 1952
This car was sold by OldBugs, I believe was also owned by PHorvath for quite a while.
http://www.oldbug.com/hp52.htm
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Last edited by Mr. OGPaint on Tue Dec 31, 2019 2:20 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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sled
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Joined: February 16, 2005
Posts: 6179
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| Posted: Tue Dec 31, 2019 2:09 pm Post subject: Re: Seamed shroud end date ? |
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off topic, but I wonder if that manifold in the Azur car is original paint? Looks repainted to me.
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ZENVWDRIVER
Samba Member
Joined: November 07, 2008
Posts: 3340
Location: N.E. Oklahoma
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| Posted: Tue Dec 31, 2019 2:45 pm Post subject: Re: Seamed shroud end date ? |
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| sled wrote: |
| off topic, but I wonder if that manifold in the Azur car is original paint? Looks repainted to me. |
… agree
_________________
5/50, pastel green 11G - SOLD
8/50, gray 11A Beetle
6/52, pastel green 11C - SOLD
11/4/52, black Zwitter - SOLD to my little bro.
1954 Porsche, pre A, with VW 36 horse- SOLD
1/54, black 11C Beetle - TRADED
2/55 Iceland green Beetle, on a 1965 pan
3/55 113 Beetle, stratos silver
1955 Messerschmitt KR175 - SOLD, sadly
1960 single cab
1962 SO33, with SO 42 interior
9/63 Pacific blue, Ghia
'87 Toyota MR2
'02 WestFORDia E-150, GAVE TO OUR SON
All super-heroes, wear a MASK |
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ZENVWDRIVER
Samba Member
Joined: November 07, 2008
Posts: 3340
Location: N.E. Oklahoma
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| Posted: Tue Dec 31, 2019 3:41 pm Post subject: Re: Seamed shroud end date ? |
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… this does not prove anything, but I looked in various owner manuals:
1946 = no seam shown
1949 = no seam
1950 = yes, has a seam
1951 = can't tell, but I don't think so
My 1950 25 horse, definitely had one too and my 11/1952, did not. Perhaps was different manufacturers - So, yes and no - depending and then only one manufacturer, with no seam (ever again) at the number stated by Garwood - is a possibility.
i like what the Dali Lama says - if one will never know, for sure, the answer to something - why think about it? That might apply, here.
_________________
5/50, pastel green 11G - SOLD
8/50, gray 11A Beetle
6/52, pastel green 11C - SOLD
11/4/52, black Zwitter - SOLD to my little bro.
1954 Porsche, pre A, with VW 36 horse- SOLD
1/54, black 11C Beetle - TRADED
2/55 Iceland green Beetle, on a 1965 pan
3/55 113 Beetle, stratos silver
1955 Messerschmitt KR175 - SOLD, sadly
1960 single cab
1962 SO33, with SO 42 interior
9/63 Pacific blue, Ghia
'87 Toyota MR2
'02 WestFORDia E-150, GAVE TO OUR SON
All super-heroes, wear a MASK |
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splitjunkie
Samba Member
Joined: April 04, 2006
Posts: 4094
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| Posted: Tue Dec 31, 2019 5:40 pm Post subject: Re: Seamed shroud end date ? |
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This is from the 9-52 Road and Track.
Split dash '52 split. No idea what month is it is but it would be at the very latest several months earlier than the publication date. Looks like a non seamed shroud.
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Chris
You know, a lot of these scratches will buff right out... Jerry Seinfeld |
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sled
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2005
Posts: 6179
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| Posted: Tue Dec 31, 2019 6:46 pm Post subject: Re: Seamed shroud end date ? |
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| ZENVWDRIVER wrote: |
My 1950 25 horse, definitely had one too and my 11/1952, did not. Perhaps was different manufacturers - So, yes and no - depending and then only one manufacturer, with no seam (ever again) at the number stated by Garwood - is a possibility.
i like what the Dali Lama says - if one will never know, for sure, the answer to something - why think about it? That might apply, here. |
none of what you're postulating is true. 46, 49, and 50...as well as up to spring of 1952 all had seamed shrouds. There were some differences yes, but the seam was always present.
the number stated by Garwood is not a possibility, and I'm not sure why you keep referencing that publication like it is the Bible.
Im sure Im coming off like a dick, and I apologize, but theres no reason to keep questioning information that is known to be true.
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p horvath
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Joined: December 29, 2003
Posts: 1225
Location: south carolina
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| Posted: Tue Dec 31, 2019 9:52 pm Post subject: Re: Seamed shroud end date ? |
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| sled wrote: |
| off topic, but I wonder if that manifold in the Azur car is original paint? Looks repainted to me. |
that was a restored k intake manifold from john henry.
i put the original back on when i sold the car.
i believe the car is back in cali as i saw it in a hot vws issue from a few months ago. |
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