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txasylum
Samba Member
Joined: December 15, 2004
Posts: 389
Location: Boyers, PA
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 Posted: Wed Jan 01, 2020 1:44 pm Post subject: End-Play Questions and number of Shims |
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I pulled my motor out of my 61 today. It is a 1200 40hp motor. It had too much endplay, so I wanted to check it out. I should add the motor runs strong.
Without shims, it measures .061". With the existing shims it measured .013".
Oh, there were 4 shims on the motor to get to .013".
So if I compute this correctly, if I use the thickest shims available, which are 38mm, that won't shim it down.
The only way to bring it into specs is by using 4 shims.
Can I use 4 shims? I know the book says 3 shims. Am I correct in my calculations above?
I looked at the main bearing when I had the flywheel off. No movement of the bearing.
Bob
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EVfun
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Joined: April 01, 2012
Posts: 5481
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Wed Jan 01, 2020 2:18 pm Post subject: Re: End-Play Questions and number of Shims |
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There are 2 sources of end play:
1. The distance between the rear most face of the flywheel and the forward face of the #1 main bearing journal on the crank is greater than the overall width of the #1 main bearing. This is the end play you want to set to about 0.004 inch.
2. Movement of the #1 main bearing in the case. No amount of shimming will remove this source of end play. You could insert enough shims to lock the crank and flywheel to the faces of the #1 main bearing so the engine wouldn't turn and this end play would still exist. If you have any of this end play you need to tear the engine down and rebuild, it only gets worse and destroys the case.
So, put enough shims in there that when you gently tighten the flywheel it cannot rotate. Now check for end play. If you have any you need to rebuild the engine. If you have none then determine what shims you need to set the end play to about 0.004" and go from there. If it was 4 shims before I wouldn't be too worried about using 4 again, but I strongly suspect you need to rebuild the bottom end.
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| As a general rule, cheap parts are the most expensive parts you can buy. |
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txasylum
Samba Member
Joined: December 15, 2004
Posts: 389
Location: Boyers, PA
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| Posted: Wed Jan 01, 2020 3:06 pm Post subject: Re: End-Play Questions and number of Shims |
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I pulled the flywheel off. I moved the crank in and out. I did not see any movement on the main bearing. I also felt it as I moved it and did not feel anything.
I had some shims (for older motors) and put two more on. I tightened it down to the point where I could not turn the flywheel by hand. I took measurements. Really nothing moving. Maybe a hair, but that could be from pressure on the flywheel with the screw driver. I loosened it just enough so I can barely turn the flywheel. Again, really no measurement on the gauge.
So based on this I can just add more shims.
OR, would you recommend just splitting the case and putting new bearings in? I certainly don't want to damage this original case to the car.
Bob
| EVfun wrote: |
There are 2 sources of end play:
1. The distance between the rear most face of the flywheel and the forward face of the #1 main bearing journal on the crank is greater than the overall width of the #1 main bearing. This is the end play you want to set to about 0.004 inch.
2. Movement of the #1 main bearing in the case. No amount of shimming will remove this source of end play. You could insert enough shims to lock the crank and flywheel to the faces of the #1 main bearing so the engine wouldn't turn and this end play would still exist. If you have any of this end play you need to tear the engine down and rebuild, it only gets worse and destroys the case.
So, put enough shims in there that when you gently tighten the flywheel it cannot rotate. Now check for end play. If you have any you need to rebuild the engine. If you have none then determine what shims you need to set the end play to about 0.004" and go from there. If it was 4 shims before I wouldn't be too worried about using 4 again, but I strongly suspect you need to rebuild the bottom end. |
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flyboy161
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Joined: December 26, 2009
Posts: 2091
Location: Perry, GA
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txasylum
Samba Member
Joined: December 15, 2004
Posts: 389
Location: Boyers, PA
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| Posted: Wed Jan 01, 2020 4:32 pm Post subject: Re: End-Play Questions and number of Shims |
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Yeah, I kinda decided to go ahead and rebuild it. Just thinking, all I need will be crank bearings, cam bearings, gasket set, correct? Of course I will have the case checked and honed if necessary.
| flyboy161 wrote: |
3 shims is it. No more, no less. .38mm is .0149”. With 3 shims that leaves you at .0163”
Bottom end needs to be rebuilt. And don’t mix 1300-1600 shims with 1200 shims |
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flyboy161
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Joined: December 26, 2009
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Location: Perry, GA
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txasylum
Samba Member
Joined: December 15, 2004
Posts: 389
Location: Boyers, PA
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| Posted: Wed Jan 01, 2020 4:59 pm Post subject: Re: End-Play Questions and number of Shims |
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Yeah, will have to check those things out. I wasn't thinking of replacing pistons and jugs. I would guess my cam and crank is good, but of course have to check it.
The link below looks like a plug and play type of set up, but with all new parts, jugs, pistons, etc. Complete new minus the case.
| flyboy161 wrote: |
You can check rod bearings once the pistons and cylinders are off. Usually a good idea to refresh them along with rods. Line boring and thrust cut are not necessarily a requirement, but you won’t know till you do the autopsy.
Check piston clearances, and ring clearances as well.
Oil pump gear lash well.
The kit for a 1200 is more pricey than a 1600, but they are tough little motors. Whomever put 4 shims under the flywheel probably didn’t take very good care on the rest of the motor, so no telling what you’ll find.
MOFOCO has a kit for $449.00
https://www.mofoco.com/item/VW_40HP_AIR_COOLED_ENG.../3916/c188 |
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txasylum
Samba Member
Joined: December 15, 2004
Posts: 389
Location: Boyers, PA
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| Posted: Sat Jan 04, 2020 10:26 am Post subject: Re: End-Play Questions and number of Shims |
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Finally figured out the problem with the end-play. I was chasing the wrong thing. It was not a fly-wheel problem, but a crankshaft problem. Whoever turned this crank cut it down too far onto the shaft, causing a bigger gap; therefore, shimming it did not work. I found another crank and all should be good now - fingers crossed.
| txasylum wrote: |
Yeah, will have to check those things out. I wasn't thinking of replacing pistons and jugs. I would guess my cam and crank is good, but of course have to check it.
The link below looks like a plug and play type of set up, but with all new parts, jugs, pistons, etc. Complete new minus the case.
| flyboy161 wrote: |
You can check rod bearings once the pistons and cylinders are off. Usually a good idea to refresh them along with rods. Line boring and thrust cut are not necessarily a requirement, but you won’t know till you do the autopsy.
Check piston clearances, and ring clearances as well.
Oil pump gear lash well.
The kit for a 1200 is more pricey than a 1600, but they are tough little motors. Whomever put 4 shims under the flywheel probably didn’t take very good care on the rest of the motor, so no telling what you’ll find.
MOFOCO has a kit for $449.00
https://www.mofoco.com/item/VW_40HP_AIR_COOLED_ENG.../3916/c188 |
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