problem with brakes

[Tim Donahoe]

Yes, Super Beetle front lines are different. Hard lines from the mc to soft lines, then another hard line from the soft lines to the drums (or calipers). This last hard line in the Supers has to be changed when going from drums to discs. The originals aren’t long enough, nor do they have the correct shape.

I suspect that those four lock washers you have are for the bolts from your existing spindles to the caliper brackets. In my kit, these bolts are a high torque (yours may be, too) and my instructions said to use Blue Locktite.

Test mount the calipers to the caliper brackets, and see if the calipers are nice and centered in relationship to the rotors. If not, go to ACE Hardware and get various width (thickness) sized washers to center the calipers. Without these spacer washers, my rotors actually scraped the interiors of the calipers. The spacers (placed between the caliper bracket and the caliper, if I remember correctly) will center the caliper to the rotor, and they’re required on the upper and lower bolts that hold the caliper to the caliper bracket.

Tim
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Let's do the Time Warp again!

Richard O'Brien

[sb001]

[Tim Donahoe]

Oops, I screwed up. The four lock washers are for the caliper bracket to caliper bolts. Sorry about that.

I’ll check the torque for these bolts (I still have the instructions), but I believe they were 43 ft. lbs. Edit: 35 ft. lbs., actually. Yours may be different.

I’ll be back after I find those instructions.

Tim
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Let's do the Time Warp again!

Richard O'Brien

[Tim Donahoe]

Okay, I found my instructions and the caliper bracket to the spindle is 25 ft. lbs.

The caliper bracket to the caliper is 35 ft. lbs., and they said to use the Locktite. I have no idea where I got the 43 ft. lbs. figure in my former post.

I also got under the car and saw my spacer washers on one caliper were the thin ones, but on the other side, they were the thicker ones. So, things change from one caliper to the other, it seems. These spacers, as I said, were supplied in the kit.

The spacers were located at the interior of the caliper on the inward side. I remember it was a bitch to keep the upper spacer washers between the inner part of the caliper and the caliper bracket, from falling. The lower ones were much easier.

I’d use a torque wrench to make sure the four caliper to caliper bracket bolts are the correct torque. From the factory, VW used tabs to lock the bolt head in place (Karmann Ghias, from 1969 on).

Tim
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Let's do the Time Warp again!

Richard O'Brien

[sb001]

Thanks for all that info Tim-
I will be sure to use a torque wrench on everything.
These instructions that came with my kit are hideous- it's almost like Dune Buggy Warehouse (the company I got these from through Amazon) typed it up themselves. LOTS of information missing, like where those lock washers went.
Also, I was looking at the calipers that came in my kit last night, and noticed there was a substantial difference between the two in terms of the distance between the inner and outer brake pads (and the sides of the caliper body) on each. One is at least 5mm or so closer together than the other. I guess it's no big deal since I can use the shims to center the caliper, but man the quality control there was awful. The pads on one side are always going to be stopping the rotor a fraction of a second earlier than the other.
_________________
I'm the humblest guy on this board.

1969 autostick sedan, family owned since new
1600 SP engine
Solex 30 PICT 3 carburetor
Bosch 113905205AE autostick distributor

[ashman40]

[sb001]

So, got home from work and installed the races into the new rotors using a rent-a-tool bearing race driver kit from autozone. Seems to have worked splendidly- installed the wheel bearings (after re-greasing them up), installed the new rotors on the spindle shafts and everything seems like it will work great- rotors spin freely with no noise. Next up is to install the calipers, I'll mess with that tomorrow.
Possibly stupid question- I know the torque spec for the clamp nut on the spindle shaft is 7-9.5 ft/lbs. Since I can't get a torque wrench on that clamp nut, what is the best way of determining the correct torque without overtightening? How freely are the rotors supposed to spin after tightening that clamp nut down? Thx
_________________
I'm the humblest guy on this board.

1969 autostick sedan, family owned since new
1600 SP engine
Solex 30 PICT 3 carburetor
Bosch 113905205AE autostick distributor

[Tim Donahoe]

The hex nut is pretty easy. You’ll be using a small, short hex key tool to tighten it. You can’t get too much torque, using that wrench. Basically, it’s tighten until the hex wrench bends a bit with your finger on the non-business end of the wrench.

The rotor is adjusted just like the drum. I tighten the nut a bit more like 9 ft. lbs., then spin the rotor around a few times to seat the bearings. At this point, I back off the nut and re-tighten so as to be barely able to just push the thrust washer with a flat bladed screwdriver. You can also use a dial indicator set to one to five thousands. But I just use the thrust-washer-screwdriver method. After this, tighten the lock nut as mentioned above.

Tim
_________________
Let's do the Time Warp again!

Richard O'Brien

[sb001]

[Tim Donahoe]

My kit came with just the four flat washers for the caliper to caliper-bracket bolts, and with instructions to use Locktite on those four bolts. With your kit, I can only assume that they figured out that folks weren’t using Locktite, so they included lock washers (I’m assuming the split lock washers). If you want to use them, I’d first put a flat washer on the bolt, then a lock washer, then install the bolt to 35 ft. lbs. You can also eliminate the lock washers and just use Locktite.

Tim
_________________
Let's do the Time Warp again!

Richard O'Brien

[sb001]

[sb001]

Well crap, just as I feared.
The one caliper I mentioned earlier that seemed to have too thin a space in the middle, scrapes the outside of the rotor. There is no way I can see to shim to fix that. The shim only helps pull the caliper to the inside, not the outside as I need it.

Here is the correctly manufactured caliper, on the passenger side- note the space between the rotor and the caliper on either side of the rotor is equidistant:

...and the rotor sits perfectly centered inside the caliper:

(the brake pads themselves are a little uneven but that's OK.)


Now take a look at the incorrectly manufactured caliper, on the driver's side-- the inside gap between the caliper and rotor is OK:

But the OUTSIDE gap is WAAYY too close:

...and the rotor does not sit even inside the caliper (note how "off" the center seam of the caliper is):

The whole caliper needs to be pushed further toward the outside of the car, but there is no way to shim it or adjust it to push it further out-- the only things the shims do that I can tell would be to pull the caliper further inward toward the center of the car.

Furthermore, this caliper just basically looks like it was "modified" somehow- it has some sort of wierd groove right down the middle round section- and the outside of the caliper almost appears to have been ground down-- the"EMPI" name that is visibly stamped on the outisde of the good caliper is nowhere to be seen on the bad one.

I'm afraid I'm going to have to contact Dune Buggy Warehouse and tell them they simply sent me a bad caliper- one that appears to have either been totally screwed up in the manufacturing process, or sold once before and some nimrod cut it in half and then welded it back together and shaved some off the outside for some reason to try to get it to fit some application. Hopefully they will agree to just send me another caliper without me having to send the whole kit back, since it's already installed and the rest of it is perfect.
_________________
I'm the humblest guy on this board.

1969 autostick sedan, family owned since new
1600 SP engine
Solex 30 PICT 3 carburetor
Bosch 113905205AE autostick distributor

[raydog]

Before you go through all of the trouble of getting another caliper, I would double check the rotor and make sure the races are seated all the way and correctly. Also measure from your rotor to part of the suspension somewhere and compare the two sides, to rule out any deviation. I would try to find where the error lies first.

Are the caliper castings physically different?

[Tim Donahoe]

After looking at what you have, it seems that the caliper bracket is the issue. That is, assuming you don’t have a shim between the caliper and the caliper bracket. If you do have a shim, remove it so the caliper can move outward.

Also, is there something about the caliper bracket—or the caliper—that won’t allow the caliper to seat all the way? Some casting, or other?

Tim
_________________
Let's do the Time Warp again!

Richard O'Brien

[Tim Donahoe]

Also, you might want to remove the caliper bracket from the spindle to make sure it is seating flush with the flat spindle surface. Something could be skewering the alignment. The caliper bracket and the flat surface of the spindle must be flush, the bolts tightened to 25 ft. lbs. If not flush, the caliper bracket wouldn’t set all the way, of course, and so the caliper can’t be positioned all the way outward.

Perhaps a section of the caliper bracket—where the caliper fits—was not machined well on the curved inner part of the caliper bracket where it joins with the caliper—and so the caliper cannot seat all the way in that case.

In my Empi kit, I had the opposite issue. My caliper required shims (supplied in the kit) to move the caliper more toward the center of the car. Once these were inserted, my caliper was centered to the rotor.

With your issue, however, the caliper isn’t placed outward enough, as if something is preventing this from occurring.

Check the items I mentioned above. Hopefully, the issue is simple to fix.

Tim
_________________
Let's do the Time Warp again!

Richard O'Brien

[sb001]

Tim, I really don't think it's the bracket- it is the caliper itself, Both calipers appear to be pretty much the same- or at least designed for the same application- but there are obvious signs of this caliper being fubar-ed. The seams don't fit together right, it looks like someone took a grinder to the surface of it, that groove that just looks completely wrong, etc. Whether someone tried to modify it or whether it was some screwup in the manufacturing, I'm not sure.

I'll take both calipers back off tomorrow (I already loctited them, but its' the blue loctite so hopefully won't be too much of an issue) and so I'll swap the good caliper over to the driver's side- that will tell me for absolute sure whether it's the bracket or the caliper (but it's the caliper.) While I have them both off the car, I'll also take a photo of them side by side to show you the differences between the two that I am talking about.
_________________
I'm the humblest guy on this board.

1969 autostick sedan, family owned since new
1600 SP engine
Solex 30 PICT 3 carburetor
Bosch 113905205AE autostick distributor

[sb001]

[ashman40]

I'm gonna support your suggestion to send the bad caliper back and get a replacement.

But if the replacement comes back and you have the same issue... Looking at the adapter bracket that is bolted to the spindle, it appears that you could add thin shims between the adapter and the spindle. This would push the caliper outward while leaving the disc in the same position. The result is the disc will sit further to the inside of the caliper. Just be sure to use shims of the same thickness on all three spindle bolts so the caliper alignment is not affected/skewed.
_________________
AshMan40
---------------------------
'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!}

[sb001]

OK I took the problem caliper back off--
Here are some pics to show you what I am talking about.

Weird groove down the middle:

This groove does not exist on the other caliper, the two sides fit together perfectly flush on that one (I left that one on the car for the time being.) Also note what appear to be casting imperfections on this one..

As I mentioned earlier the good caliper has the EMPI name stamped into the surface:

...while this one appears to have had it ground off:

Again though, the main problem with this one is that the space between the two sides where the rotor sits is at least 5-6mm thinner than the other. I did not think about trying to shim the bracket outward as ashman suggests; this would actually probably solve the scraping issue- however (as he also suggests) I will probably talk to Dune Buggy Warehouse first and see if they are wiling to send me a replacement, especially seeing as how the caliper itself seems to be compromised.
_________________
I'm the humblest guy on this board.

1969 autostick sedan, family owned since new
1600 SP engine
Solex 30 PICT 3 carburetor
Bosch 113905205AE autostick distributor

[raydog]

It looks like the calipers are made to fit either side. Why not take the "good" caliper and test fit it to the side you are having problems with. A five minute job will eliminate a lot of guessing on whether the part was manufactured incorrectly or not. It will prove the spacing of the rotor, casting flaws, etc.

I'm just going by the pics, please disregard if they can't be swapped or if you have already tried this.