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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
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 Posted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 4:12 pm Post subject: Re: Cool Transmission |
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I dont know ahout your particular type 1 transmissions......but the 004 four speed transaxles in 411 and 412 cars....in summer on extended highway driving gets to 185-190° in the differential section and 165° to 175° in the gear section.
I drove these cars all over the central southwest for a decade or so before I realized how hot they get. I burned myself working on a clutch slave one day after about 2 hours at 70mph in July.
After that I played with a couple of thermocouples on the trans for a month or so to verify the temps I just listed.
Over the years I have checked these same temps in several type 4 cars that I have owned. Its pretty standard temps. In fall and winter you can take 10-15 degrees off those numbers.
So until you ACTULLY measure the temps on the trans you are running......I would not be so quick to tell people these transmissions dont get hot.
By the way...some of my heat could easily be gear ratio, gear type and tire size. The final drive is 3.73:1 and 4th is 1:1 and the R&P set is a full hypoid configuration with 205-60-15 tires. Ray |
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rayjay
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Location: Buford GA
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rayjay
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Posts: 1506
Location: Buford GA
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| Posted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 5:04 pm Post subject: Re: Cool Transmission |
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| Bulli Klinik wrote: |
| No oil for the gears to slog through. |
Once the car starts moving the oil is not just sitting there at the level of the fill plug. It's being thrown around vigorously. It would be interesting to have a way to see the inside of a transaxle. Some rearends have passages that take the oil flung off the ring gear and channel it to the bearings. |
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petrol punk
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Joined: August 21, 2007
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Location: Las Vegas, NV
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| Posted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 6:18 pm Post subject: Re: Cool Transmission |
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A dry sump trans would be cool. Our machinist in university had a shop where he built hi-performance engines, mostly V8 boat stuff. He had issues with burning up reduction gear boxes on turbine powered boats due to the high RPMs. Initially they were oiled simply by the spur gear dipping in oil. Then they tried dry-sumping it and using an oil pump to squirt oil into the gear mesh, and they still burned up. Then they tried squirting oil AFTER the gear mesh, this fixed their temperature issues. They were carrying so much oil into the gear mesh, and it takes energy to squish it out of the mesh. Spraying after the gear mesh meant by the time the tooth made it 350* back to the gear mesh all that was left was a perfectly adequate film of oil.
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Clatter
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Joined: September 24, 2003
Posts: 7549
Location: Santa Cruz
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| Posted: Fri Jan 24, 2020 10:24 am Post subject: Re: Cool Transmission |
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I'm digging this discussion for sure.
Love your build, been watching it.
Couple of ideas:
Are you going to put a temp gauge on your trans?
This would tell you loads about what is actually going on temp-wise.
I'd also be thinking about making sure the pump is happy.
Definitely want to be only turning the pump on after the trans is up to temp and the oil is thin.
Pump might not be too happy pumping thick oil.
Plus, you'll not need it until you need it..
Additionally,
i'd also be making sure the total area of the jets was adequate.
Would hate to see the pump straining against restriction.
Seems that oil volume would be more important than velocity.
Those carb jets just seem small to me
(From here on my keyboard at my desk  ).
Looking forward to see how you deal with the packaging and location of these bits.
My inclination would be to do filter and pump,
but hold off on a cooler until you see actual temps.
I'm inclined to think that the issue is inadequate lubrication to certain points,
and a filter and pump would help this,
but that overall temp remains to be seen as an issue.
I never put an oil cooler on my cars until I run them hard and verify a need.
JMHO.. FWIW. 
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halbug
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Joined: March 09, 2006
Posts: 455
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Fri Jan 24, 2020 1:22 pm Post subject: Re: Cool Transmission |
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| Bruce wrote: |
| halbug wrote: |
Pump switched on at 130F - Pre Filter (some mesh type) - Pump – Filter with Magnets – Thermostat – Cooler (if oil reaches 170F) – |
What makes you think 130ºF is hot? |
I don't think 130°F is hot, it's the point I am switching the pump on to start extra lubrication and filtering. It's an electric pump and I don't want the oil to be too thick.
I think anything over and beyond 170°F is getting hot. At that point a mechanical thermostat will direct the oil to the cooler. It will actually mix the oil to always have arround 170 max.
As some of you mention here and also from other sources, there is enough evidence, that a Type1 transmission on a massive engine has a good chance to overheat. If I'm wrong, oil will never run through the cooler  I am sure it will - occasionally 
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halbug
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Posts: 455
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Fri Jan 24, 2020 1:51 pm Post subject: Re: Cool Transmission |
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| Clatter wrote: |
I'm digging this discussion for sure.
Love your build, been watching it.
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me too and Thank you!
| Clatter wrote: |
...
i'd also be making sure the total area of the jets was adequate.
Would hate to see the pump straining against restriction.
Seems that oil volume would be more important than velocity.
Those carb jets just seem small to me
(From here on my keyboard at my desk ).
Looking forward to see how you deal with the packaging and location of these bits.
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No worries, I won't be using the 130 jets as they are I will open them up. When test benching the set up, I like to reach a situation in where I have a constant pressure of maximum 7 psi and an even flow through all jets and some passing the pressure relieve, directly into the case (pressure relieve valve built into the distributor block) I think I need some pressure to spray the oil towards it's "destination".
Packaging is a major issue  I have been spending hours in the garage to find space. Getting there...
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Fri Jan 24, 2020 2:00 pm Post subject: Re: Cool Transmission |
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I have been thinking about an oil circulation pump for my gear oil in my 4 speed manual for some time. I know the vanagon guys have issues and already have a lot of this covered for their transmissions.
But....a lot of what I have been looking at circulation for...aside from heat....is putting extra oil right at the diff side bearings and possibly R&P....but mainly to one particular spot on the countershaft which has needle bearings and VERY limited oiling....a single 5mm hole with no flow through. Its one of the self destruct spots on this type of transmission.
For the pump....I have been thinking of a late mk 1 rabbit or early mk2 power steering pump. Like most its a sliding vane pump...and very small. One could pop it open and pull out every other vane to really take the load off the pump for the thick gear oil. This is mainly for circulation. High pressure not required. Runs off of a belt.
The early one literally fits in your hand.
Ray |
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Bruce
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Joined: May 16, 2003
Posts: 17290
Location: Left coast, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Jan 30, 2020 7:07 pm Post subject: Re: Cool Transmission |
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| raygreenwood wrote: |
| I dont know ahout your particular type 1 transmissions......but the 004 four speed transaxles in 411 and 412 cars.... |
Apples to oranges. Your hypoid R&P has much more frictional losses than a Type 1's spiral bevel gear set, so you're making way more heat.
Driving through the central valley in Cali in the summer, ~95ºF ambient, after several hours at 70mph, I exited into a rest stop. I immediately got out and crawled under the car to grab onto the gearbox. It was warm, but nowhere near hot enough to burn your hand, so less than 130-140ºF.
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Bruce
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Posts: 17290
Location: Left coast, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Jan 30, 2020 7:13 pm Post subject: Re: Cool Transmission |
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| halbug wrote: |
| Bruce wrote: |
| halbug wrote: |
Pump switched on at 130F - Pre Filter (some mesh type) - Pump – Filter with Magnets – Thermostat – Cooler (if oil reaches 170F) – |
What makes you think 130ºF is hot? |
I think anything over and beyond 170°F is getting hot. At that point a mechanical thermostat will direct the oil to the cooler. It will actually mix the oil to always have arround 170 max. |
I predict your oil will never see the cooler.
Even if it did get to that temp, a good synthetic is more than capable of handling up to 250ºF.
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| overheard at the portland Swap Meet... wrote: |
| ..... a steering wheel made from a mastadon tusk..... |
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oprn
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Posts: 12740
Location: Western Canada
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| Posted: Fri Jan 31, 2020 5:35 am Post subject: Re: Cool Transmission |
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| How about using an auto stick shift oil pump for the tranny? |
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gears
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Posts: 4391
Location: Tamarack, Bend, Kailua
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| Posted: Fri Jan 31, 2020 6:44 am Post subject: Re: Cool Transmission |
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| petrol punk wrote: |
| ... they tried dry-sumping it and using an oil pump to squirt oil into the gear mesh, and they still burned up. Then they tried squirting oil AFTER the gear mesh, this fixed their temperature issues. They were carrying so much oil into the gear mesh, and it takes energy to squish it out of the mesh. Spraying after the gear mesh meant by the time the tooth made it 350* back to the gear mesh all that was left was a perfectly adequate film of oil. |
Trans builders seem to resist this reality. A puddle of cool oil held at the UNmeshing gear flanks will cool the just-heated gear teeth, while an oil stream directed at the mesh point will just be splattered away. Likewise, a stream of oil aimed at a rotating gear will be flung off immediately, unless there is some sort of oil dam retaining the cooled oil. https://www.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/1811745.jpg
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halbug
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Location: Germany
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| Posted: Fri Jan 31, 2020 1:37 pm Post subject: Re: Cool Transmission |
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| Bruce wrote: |
Driving through the central valley in Cali in the summer, ~95ºF ambient, after several hours at 70mph, I exited into a rest stop. I immediately got out and crawled under the car to grab onto the gearbox. It was warm, but nowhere near hot enough to burn your hand, so less than 130-140ºF. |
A type1 tranny was designed for 70mph , no matter how much power your engine makes, going 70mph on a flat, a bug will not need more than stock horsepower!
But the ammount of power needed to go 90mph already doubles. Now let's assume I like to go 110mph over a longer time - that is already four times the power that needs to go through the gears onto the road.
If you go uphill - let's say with a passenger and some luggage on board - the needed amount of power will multiply with every additional 15mph.
Additional power through the gears is more friction, is more heat - maybe I do not need a cooler - maybe it helps the longevity!
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Last edited by halbug on Fri Jan 31, 2020 11:23 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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halbug
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Posts: 455
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Fri Jan 31, 2020 2:03 pm Post subject: Re: Cool Transmission |
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| gears wrote: |
| petrol punk wrote: |
| ... they tried dry-sumping it and using an oil pump to squirt oil into the gear mesh, and they still burned up. Then they tried squirting oil AFTER the gear mesh, this fixed their temperature issues. They were carrying so much oil into the gear mesh, and it takes energy to squish it out of the mesh. Spraying after the gear mesh meant by the time the tooth made it 350* back to the gear mesh all that was left was a perfectly adequate film of oil. |
Trans builders seem to resist this reality. A puddle of cool oil held at the UNmeshing gear flanks will cool the just-heated gear teeth, while an oil stream directed at the mesh point will just be splattered away. Likewise, a stream of oil aimed at a rotating gear will be flung off immediately, unless there is some sort of oil dam retaining the cooled oil. https://www.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/1811745.jpg |
hi guys - very interesting  Great pic of an awesome transmission case!
I was planning to spray the oil into the mesh - just like seen on Porsche racing transmissions - but was not able to, due to the shift mechanisms in a type1 tranny. Maybe I got lucky. I am now spraying on the unmashing side at an angle in an attempt to get some oil onto the bearings as well. Probably not perfect, but I hope it will help some anyway
I have an idea where to package most bits of the system, for some I have to wait until the body is in place. Tranny is out again and going to a builder.
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halbug
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halbug
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2020 2:05 pm Post subject: Re: Cool Transmission |
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| Bruce wrote: |
| raygreenwood wrote: |
| I dont know ahout your particular type 1 transmissions......but the 004 four speed transaxles in 411 and 412 cars.... |
Apples to oranges. Your hypoid R&P has much more frictional losses than a Type 1's spiral bevel gear set, so you're making way more heat.
Driving through the central valley in Cali in the summer, ~95ºF ambient, after several hours at 70mph, I exited into a rest stop. I immediately got out and crawled under the car to grab onto the gearbox. It was warm, but nowhere near hot enough to burn your hand, so less than 130-140ºF. |
Thank you for answering Bruce. Sorry I did not get back to this thread!
Yes....mine is hypoid...apples to oranges. I did not realize they made more heat than spiral bevel. So along with that thought and what Gears noted...
Gears wrote:
| Quote: |
petrol punk wrote:
... they tried dry-sumping it and using an oil pump to squirt oil into the gear mesh, and they still burned up. Then they tried squirting oil AFTER the gear mesh, this fixed their temperature issues. They were carrying so much oil into the gear mesh, and it takes energy to squish it out of the mesh. Spraying after the gear mesh meant by the time the tooth made it 350* back to the gear mesh all that was left was a perfectly adequate film of oil.
Trans builders seem to resist this reality. A puddle of cool oil held at the UNmeshing gear flanks will cool the just-heated gear teeth, while an oil stream directed at the mesh point will just be splattered away. Likewise, a stream of oil aimed at a rotating gear will be flung off immediately, unless there is some sort of oil dam retaining the cooled oil. https://www.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/1811745.jpg |
So since my final drive is different and is why I see more heat.......is it possible that I could see better cooling without having a cooler system like this....by simply increasing oil volume/depth and insuring that is just below the un-mesh point of the R&P?
Ray |
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nextgen
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Location: CONGERS, N.Y.
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| Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2020 5:01 pm Post subject: Re: Cool Transmission |
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I recently posted, how the guys shamed me when I said I not change the Tranny oil since I changed my bug from Automatic to stick back in 1989. Did the change last week. 30 years later. When I got the tranny it was not new, who knows how old the oils it was and who was the tranny treated. ?
30 years ago I was told by some Super V racers to use Redline mtl. Well 30 years later, yes some small slivers of metal were stuck to the magnet and a few pieces of small silvers brass in the drained oil.
I beat the hell out of this tranny to this day with my T-4 engine, shifts fine and actually better since the oil change, ( ok, not always easy to get into 2nd fast, Syncro ) but it has been like that as long as I can remember.
My point, hay we need a guy like you pushing the envelope! Even If not really needed now, may be needed for what ever is coming next.
The Reline MTL is rated at 100c 220 f. and they make racing versions.
I am sure there may be other Mfgs. That may be better.
Also thank for your ideals.
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nextgen
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halbug
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