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Igpoe
Samba Member
Joined: February 24, 2019
Posts: 853
Location: South Boston, VA
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 Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 5:05 am Post subject: Thoughts on my new motor? |
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| I'm planning a 1641 from an AE case with Mahle 87mm slip-ins, Scat C35, 044 Panchitos, CB matched-port manifolds, and 44 idfs. I'm not into racing, just wanting a stronger street car. I'll run this one maybe 4k a year in my 73 SB. What should I expect? Anyone wishing to opine is welcome. I appreciate all. |
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StefansBus
Samba Member
Joined: November 20, 2015
Posts: 242
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 5:28 am Post subject: Re: Thoughts on my new motor? |
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Small engine, relatively mild cam. Won't make a ton of power. Probably won't benefit fully from those big carbs. What valve sizes are we talking? Too big and you will lose bottom end. And the cam doesn't support high RPMs. So no big hp numbers either.
I'm no expert by any stretch of the imagination but I don't think that combo is ideal.
Why not go to at least 1776 or 1835 thick wall? Do you not want to split the case?
A 1775 or 1835 with the kind of cam you have in mind plus some 40 IDFs plus some super stock street heads with say 37mm intake valves should work quite good and be very streetable while giving you around 100hp if done right. |
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Igpoe
Samba Member
Joined: February 24, 2019
Posts: 853
Location: South Boston, VA
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| Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 5:35 am Post subject: Re: Thoughts on my new motor? |
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Those valves are 40 intake x 30.5 exhaust. Speaking of exhaust, I'm gonna run
1.5" because what goes on must come out. |
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Alstrup
Samba Member
Joined: July 12, 2007
Posts: 7219
Location: Videbaek Denmark
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| Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 6:03 am Post subject: Re: Thoughts on my new motor? |
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| Igpoe wrote: |
Those valves are 40 intake x 30.5 exhaust. Speaking of exhaust, I'm gonna run
1.5" because what goes on must come out. |
Exactly.
That said, heads are on the large side, carbs are definitely on the large side. With that in mind the cam is wrong. This is one of the cases where a W110 is better. 9-1 CR, 32 mm venturies in the IDF´s, convertimprove the IDF´s to SVDA or even better a programmable system and it can work well and be quite nippy. |
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Igpoe
Samba Member
Joined: February 24, 2019
Posts: 853
Location: South Boston, VA
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| Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 6:16 am Post subject: Re: Thoughts on my new motor? |
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| I already have the carbs, nice chrome-plated Spanish 44s. Will it help to use different heads like maybe ACN L3? I have plenty of small jets and (4) 28mm vents! |
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Igpoe
Samba Member
Joined: February 24, 2019
Posts: 853
Location: South Boston, VA
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| Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 6:29 am Post subject: Re: Thoughts on my new motor? |
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| Thanks Alstrup! I may have to rethink all of this...........not one of my strengths! |
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ALB
Samba Member
Joined: August 05, 2008
Posts: 3483
Location: beautiful suburban Wet Coast of Canada
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| Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 7:23 am Post subject: Re: Thoughts on my new motor? |
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Are you dead set on 87's? I ask because with your heavier car I think this is definitely a situation where a little more displacement is your friend. I'm guessing (for whatever reason) you're trying to avoid machining costs, but extra cubic inches will create more power from idle up, and a 1776, thickwall 1835 (or for that matter, 1915  ) will make your car just that little bit more fun to drive. As mentioned, the Panchitos are not ideal; if you were considering a C45 or W125 cam and wanting to make power in the 6500 rpm range I get it, but it doesn't sound like this is what you're looking for. I think you'd be better off with some properly ported stock valve heads. This will make the most power throughout the rpm range (not just the top end) and be the most fun.
Hope this helps. Al
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On a lifelong mission to prove (much to my wife's dismay) that Immaturity is Forever!! |
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[email protected]
Samba Member
Joined: August 15, 2002
Posts: 4394
Location: Brew City
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| Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 8:44 am Post subject: Re: Thoughts on my new motor? |
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| Igpoe wrote: |
| I'm planning a 1641 from an AE case with Mahle 87mm slip-ins, Scat C35, 044 Panchitos, CB matched-port manifolds, and 44 idfs. I'm not into racing, just wanting a stronger street car. I'll run this one maybe 4k a year in my 73 SB. What should I expect? Anyone wishing to opine is welcome. I appreciate all. |
Yes, it will run but it's really a huge mismatch of parts. You either need more CC's and more cam OR less carburation.
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vwracerdave
Samba Member
Joined: November 11, 2004
Posts: 15309
Location: Deep in the 405
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| Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 11:05 am Post subject: Re: Thoughts on my new motor? |
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The heads are a little too big and the carbs are WAYYY to big. Yes you can jet it down and install smaller venturies but it will never run correctly and will always get poor gas mileage.
With those heads and carbs you need a 1915cc or larger.
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2010 Sportsman ET Champion - Mid-America Dragway - Arkansas City, KS
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Alstrup
Samba Member
Joined: July 12, 2007
Posts: 7219
Location: Videbaek Denmark
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| Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 11:19 am Post subject: Re: Thoughts on my new motor? |
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| Igpoe wrote: |
| I already have the carbs, nice chrome-plated Spanish 44s. Will it help to use different heads like maybe ACN L3? I have plenty of small jets and (4) 28mm vents! |
To my knowledge there are no factory 28 mm venturies for 44 IDF´s. - Empi 28 mm venturies are easy to make fit. But then you run into other tuning issues with so small venturies over a relatively large butterfly. Stay with the 32 mm.
L3´s are not a bad choice. My only beef with them is that the port volume is on the high side for the valve size. But they will work.
I´d say stay with the combo you listed apart from the cam. Lock the distributor and go for a Black box and get a good powerfull coil so that you have some spark capacity, use a W110, or CB 2242 or a Web 163 advanced 2-3 degrees. Then it can work well.
The reason to why I want you to get a BB is that in the critical range from just over idle until thje cam "comes in" you can dial the ignition in so that the engine will overcome the sligfhly imperfect conditions and ultimately deliver more usable power. The BB really is worth its money.
With exhaust. Use one with relatively long primaries like the sidewinder models, - OR if you are more into shorty headers and don´t need heating the VS EL SS143 in 38 mm is also a good choice. It will cost you a little bit power on top, but below 3000 it will be a tad better. |
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Ohio Tom
Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2006
Posts: 1660
Location: Marshallville Ohio
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| Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 12:03 pm Post subject: Re: Thoughts on my new motor? |
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Don't forget chromoly pushrods are required. (or HD aluminum).
Agreed with going larger. Go as big as you can.
Might as well go 94. 1915cc.
Then the rest of the parts are matched much better. |
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Igpoe
Samba Member
Joined: February 24, 2019
Posts: 853
Location: South Boston, VA
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| Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 12:30 pm Post subject: Re: Thoughts on my new motor? |
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| Sounds like I need to reconsider. Thanks for y'alls ideas. I get what you're saying. I have in mind all the components of a big motor except the proper piston and cylinders. |
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Igpoe
Samba Member
Joined: February 24, 2019
Posts: 853
Location: South Boston, VA
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| Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 1:14 pm Post subject: Re: Thoughts on my new motor? |
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As hard as it is to "not use" these beautiful carbs, it maybe makes more sense to use some 4th generation hpmx 40s and ACN L3 heads. To what degree do you fellas agree with that formula? It has been suggested to me that I should consider a Web cam model 218 on a 105 LC ( lobe center ) to keep a torquey low rpm range. Those weird intake pipes in the pic allow the carbs to mount to a V-twin. |
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[email protected]
Samba Member
Joined: August 15, 2002
Posts: 4394
Location: Brew City
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| Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 1:26 pm Post subject: Re: Thoughts on my new motor? |
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| Igpoe wrote: |
As hard as it is to "not use" these beautiful carbs, it maybe makes more sense to use some 4th generation hpmx 40s and ACN L3 heads. To what degree do you fellas agree with that formula? It has been suggested to me that I should consider a Web cam model 218 on a 105 LC ( lobe center ) to keep a torquey low rpm range. Those weird intake pipes in the pic allow the carbs to mount to a V-twin. |
The 218 is an awesome cam!! I am running it in my 2180cc with my 050 Rasser cylinder heads, dual 44's and 1.25 rockers. At 10 to 1 CR; it is a SCARY fast car....The cam pulls immediately off idle until about 6000rpm.
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vwracerdave
Samba Member
Joined: November 11, 2004
Posts: 15309
Location: Deep in the 405
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| Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 2:39 pm Post subject: Re: Thoughts on my new motor? |
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You would be money ahead by selling those chromed out carbs to a motorcycle guy (for whatever bike they fit on) and buying a new set of the correct sized IDF's.
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2017 Street Comp Champion - Thunder Valley Raceway Park - Noble, OK
2010 Sportsman ET Champion - Mid-America Dragway - Arkansas City, KS
1997 Sportsman ET Champion - Thunder Valley Raceway Park - Noble ,OK |
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Alstrup
Samba Member
Joined: July 12, 2007
Posts: 7219
Location: Videbaek Denmark
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| Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 3:27 pm Post subject: Re: Thoughts on my new motor? |
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| Igpoe wrote: |
| Sounds like I need to reconsider. Thanks for y'alls ideas. I get what you're saying. I have in mind all the components of a big motor except the proper piston and cylinders. |
IT all depends om what your final chliceends up with. The cam is the last Thing you chose, - or, you chose a cam and then the rest of the engine.
Over time I Have Come to the conclusion that I persoally like the 218/119 on 108 lc better and advanced 2 degrees than the 218 on 105 lc, unless you are after most possible torque under 2500rpm.. This way you get better overall power.
Figure out which size you want to build, then the rest is easier to determine. |
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Igpoe
Samba Member
Joined: February 24, 2019
Posts: 853
Location: South Boston, VA
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| Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 5:00 pm Post subject: Re: Thoughts on my new motor? |
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Gosh, I haven't gotten a grip on lobe center yet and you're adding 2 degrees!
Does this mean that normal maximum opening of a valve will be ahead of 0 by 2°? |
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Alstrup
Samba Member
Joined: July 12, 2007
Posts: 7219
Location: Videbaek Denmark
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| Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 8:45 pm Post subject: Re: Thoughts on my new motor? |
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| Igpoe wrote: |
Gosh, I haven't gotten a grip on lobe center yet and you're adding 2 degrees!
Does this mean that normal maximum opening of a valve will be ahead of 0 by 2°? |
Yes, advanced 2 degrees.
If "you" just want to slap it together it is of course easier to just buy a cam that is on a tighter lc or at least advanced in the grind. That is basically why I recommended the W110 earlier over the C35. also, the C35 is not really a good cam as is, but add 1,25 rockers to it and it really wakes up the engine (provided the engine can exploit the lift) The C35 is also a straight up cam like the 163. The W110 is 3-4 degrees advanced out of the box (if its accurate in its grind) That is very good in smaller engines with a little large heads, because it helps the incoming mix to stay in motion due to better initial vacum from the cylinder.
No matter if you chose a 1641, 1776 or 1914 I/we can make a killer recipe for ya, but at one cost. That is that you do not just buy whats on sale that day of the week, but carefully select the parts for the engine size you chose. Doing it that way it will be a little more expensive, but for the extra money you can easily get an engine that pulls 10- even 15% better power than what you originally thought for the same size, WITHOUT the engine getting hysterical, in fact it will often be more driveable too. |
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Igpoe
Samba Member
Joined: February 24, 2019
Posts: 853
Location: South Boston, VA
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| Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 9:21 pm Post subject: Re: Thoughts on my new motor? |
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| Alstrup wrote: |
| Igpoe wrote: |
Gosh, I haven't gotten a grip on lobe center yet and you're adding 2 degrees!
Does this mean that normal maximum opening of a valve will be ahead of 0 by 2°? |
Yes, advanced 2 degrees.
If "you" just want to slap it together it is of course easier to just buy a cam that is on a tighter lc or at least advanced in the grind. That is basically why I recommended the W110 earlier over the C35. also, the C35 is not really a good cam as is, but add 1,25 rockers to it and it really wakes up the engine (provided the engine can exploit the lift) The C35 is also a straight up cam like the 163. The W110 is 3-4 degrees advanced out of the box (if its accurate in its grind) That is very good in smaller engines with a little large heads, because it helps the incoming mix to stay in motion due to better initial vacum from the cylinder.
No matter if you chose a 1641, 1776 or 1914 I/we can make a killer recipe for ya, but at one cost. That is that you do not just buy whats on sale that day of the week, but carefully select the parts for the engine size you chose. Doing it
that way it will be a little more expensive, but for the extra money you can
easily get an engine that pulls 10- even 15% better power than what you originally thought for the same size, WITHOUT the engine getting hysterical, in fact it will often be more driveable too. |
Oh, I've never had a doubt of any kind that the Samba guys could make a nice motor. About a thousand years of cumulative experience!
I can get a pair of gen. 4 HPMX 40s, a pair of the ACN (L3) Stocker Plus heads and motivate the valves with a Web 218 with 2°advance and I'll be in much better shape. I'm still wanting the 87x69 piston/cylinder set. |
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Igpoe
Samba Member
Joined: February 24, 2019
Posts: 853
Location: South Boston, VA
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| Posted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 4:22 am Post subject: Re: Thoughts on my new motor? |
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| But wait! Will that cam do the job at 8:1 compression? 91 octane is readily available. I can get 93 but it is much further away. |
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