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covelo
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Joined: February 20, 2005
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Location: Fairfax, CA
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 Posted: Sun Jan 19, 2020 4:32 pm Post subject: Girling brake caliper question |
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Today I started overhauling the front brakes on my 1980 Vanagon. I had ordered rebuilt calipers from Bus Depot and when I took one of the old ones off, I noticed that the place where the brake line attaches is different between my old one and the rebuilt one. They are both Girling calipers but I did not know that there were different models. (My Vanagon is one of the very early ones from September 1979). The photo below shows how they are different.
Is it a problem to replace the old ones with these new ones? My brake line no longer fits so I will need to fabricate a new piece to make it work but I also worry that I will run into clearance issues with the brake line sticking out of the side of the caliper like that. The old solution is more elegant with the line tucked neatly into the caliper from the top. Should I just try to rebuild my old calipers instead?
Thank you for your advice!
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'80 Vanagon Westfalia
'72 Bay Window Westfalia (with 2L AVP engine and dual solex carbs) -- sold in 2009 |
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stuzbot
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Joined: March 30, 2018
Posts: 377
Location: Pining for the Puddles of Yesterday
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| Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2020 5:16 am Post subject: Re: Girling brake caliper question |
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Looks like you've bought yourself a later model Girling caliper.
Take a look here:
* Early model
* Late model
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1992 VW LT35 2,4D [SOLD]
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MarkWard
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Joined: February 09, 2005
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Location: Retired South Florida
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| Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2020 5:34 am Post subject: Re: Girling brake caliper question |
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The later vanagon calipers are single piston with a floating cage. The above ones appear to be dual piston. I’ll grab a look at my 82 calipers this am. Mean while I’d check with BD. I’m wondering if the early vanagon had bus calipers? If the other dimensions are correct, I don’t see why you couldn’t make new lines to adapt them.
Rebuilding yours with kits is an option if the pistons are in good shape and you can purchase the correct rebuild kits.
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82westyrabbit
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Location: Ma
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| Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2020 5:59 am Post subject: Re: Girling brake caliper question |
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| The calipers on my 82 are the same as your original calipers as are any other early calipers I have seen. There might be some at vantage to making a flexible line to go with those calipers so you don’t have that little metal line that is a pain. I would probably send it back and have them send me the correct part. John |
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MarkWard
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| Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2020 7:37 am Post subject: Re: Girling brake caliper question |
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My calipers on the 82 have the lines in the top like your originals. Time to give Bus Depot a call.
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covelo
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Joined: February 20, 2005
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Location: Fairfax, CA
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| Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2020 10:43 am Post subject: Re: Girling brake caliper question |
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| MarkWard wrote: |
| My calipers on the 82 have the lines in the top like your originals. Time to give Bus Depot a call. |
Called them and the calipers are basically interchangeable except for that connection. The newer ones can be used on both sides, which apparently is why VW made that change to the location of the connection.
Rather than sending them back and waiting for BD to find a rebuilt pair of the old ones I'll use this as an opportunity to learn how to install brake lines.
Thanks for the advice!
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'80 Vanagon Westfalia
'72 Bay Window Westfalia (with 2L AVP engine and dual solex carbs) -- sold in 2009 |
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jlrftype7
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| Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2020 11:08 am Post subject: Re: Girling brake caliper question |
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I ran into the same issue with my ‘84 Vanagon. I made a new steel line to work with the different caliper like you have. Watch your bend out of the caliper in terms of keeping it a tight radius so the line and fittings clear the knuckle/spindle at full steering lock.
Mount the new caliper with a bolt or two and turn your steering both ways now before you start to see what I’m talking about, the original location has no issues, but the caliper line coming out of the side needs to be a neat, tight bend.
Mine was L/F, so I believe full left turn was my clearance issue if I remember right.
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'68 Westy- my first VW and vehicle/Bus- long gone.- sold it to a traveling Swiss couple....
'67 Type 3 Fastback, my 2nd car- gone
'69 Semi-Auto Stick Shift Beetle-gone
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MarkWard
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| Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2020 11:52 am Post subject: Re: Girling brake caliper question |
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Another option might be to make a steel braid hose to replace the small metal tube and rubber hose. The caliper end could have a banjo bolt to adjust for clearance.
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jlrftype7
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| Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2020 4:54 pm Post subject: Re: Girling brake caliper question |
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| MarkWard wrote: |
| Another option might be to make a steel braid hose to replace the small metal tube and rubber hose. The caliper end could have a banjo bolt to adjust for clearance. |
The flex hose as stock comes down the bracket, and your short metal bent pipe takes it to the caliper. Are you thinking bypassing that bracket altogether and bolt directly to the caliper? 
Bending a new pipe was not difficult, just had to measure where my fittings needed to end up.
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'68 Westy- my first VW and vehicle/Bus- long gone.- sold it to a traveling Swiss couple....
'67 Type 3 Fastback, my 2nd car- gone
'69 Semi-Auto Stick Shift Beetle-gone
2017 MINI Coopers, our current DDs
‘84 Tin Top - Hilga....Auto |
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ZsZ
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| Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 1:21 am Post subject: Re: Girling brake caliper question |
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Probably BusDepot found an alternative source for those calipers.
Most probably they are Bay Window or Brazilian kombi ones.
edit '79 Bay caliper looks the same:
https://au.vwheritage.com/211615107r-front-brake-caliper-front-left-vw-spare
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1.9 MTdi 2wd Multivan (ex Caravelle)
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MarkWard
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Location: Retired South Florida
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| Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 5:48 am Post subject: Re: Girling brake caliper question |
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| jlrftype7 wrote: |
| MarkWard wrote: |
| Another option might be to make a steel braid hose to replace the small metal tube and rubber hose. The caliper end could have a banjo bolt to adjust for clearance. |
The flex hose as stock comes down the bracket, and your short metal bent pipe takes it to the caliper. Are you thinking bypassing that bracket altogether and bolt directly to the caliper?
Bending a new pipe was not difficult, just had to measure where my fittings needed to end up. |
Yes. Fabricating a pipe has a couple challenges. One you need a flaring tool that can do bubble flairs. You need to have the tube nuts in place prior to bending and fitting since most flaring tools need an inch or more of straight tube to flare and most benders also need some straight length.
You also need to get the length correct at the same time. Not saying it can’t be done. I recently made lines for an 86. I used welding wire and bent a known length as a template. That got me close.
Edit. You don’t need to bypass the bracket. A rubber grommet size right will retain that securing point.
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covelo
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Joined: February 20, 2005
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Location: Fairfax, CA
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| Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 2:36 pm Post subject: Re: Girling brake caliper question |
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| MarkWard wrote: |
| jlrftype7 wrote: |
| MarkWard wrote: |
| Another option might be to make a steel braid hose to replace the small metal tube and rubber hose. The caliper end could have a banjo bolt to adjust for clearance. |
The flex hose as stock comes down the bracket, and your short metal bent pipe takes it to the caliper. Are you thinking bypassing that bracket altogether and bolt directly to the caliper?
Bending a new pipe was not difficult, just had to measure where my fittings needed to end up. |
Yes. Fabricating a pipe has a couple challenges. One you need a flaring tool that can do bubble flairs. You need to have the tube nuts in place prior to bending and fitting since most flaring tools need an inch or more of straight tube to flare and most benders also need some straight length.
You also need to get the length correct at the same time. Not saying it can’t be done. I recently made lines for an 86. I used welding wire and bent a known length as a template. That got me close.
Edit. You don’t need to bypass the bracket. A rubber grommet size right will retain that securing point. |
Yes, I want to keep using that bracket. It turns out I need to add approximately 1.5 inches and then a 90* bend to the pipe. I was also worried about getting the tube nut around the bend. I was thinking I would measure the correct overall length and then put the nut in the right spot first before making the bend. Before embarking on this I will check my clearance just to make sure this makes sense.
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'80 Vanagon Westfalia
'72 Bay Window Westfalia (with 2L AVP engine and dual solex carbs) -- sold in 2009 |
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MarkWard
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| Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 3:23 pm Post subject: Re: Girling brake caliper question |
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Sounds like you grasp the challenges of making lines. Post up your result. Good luck.
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jlrftype7
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| Posted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 6:51 am Post subject: Re: Girling brake caliper question |
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| MarkWard wrote: |
| jlrftype7 wrote: |
| MarkWard wrote: |
| Another option might be to make a steel braid hose to replace the small metal tube and rubber hose. The caliper end could have a banjo bolt to adjust for clearance. |
The flex hose as stock comes down the bracket, and your short metal bent pipe takes it to the caliper. Are you thinking bypassing that bracket altogether and bolt directly to the caliper?
Bending a new pipe was not difficult, just had to measure where my fittings needed to end up. |
Yes. Fabricating a pipe has a couple challenges. One you need a flaring tool that can do bubble flairs. You need to have the tube nuts in place prior to bending and fitting since most flaring tools need an inch or more of straight tube to flare and most benders also need some straight length.
You also need to get the length correct at the same time. Not saying it can’t be done. I recently made lines for an 86. I used welding wire and bent a known length as a template. That got me close.
Edit. You don’t need to bypass the bracket. A rubber grommet size right will retain that securing point. |
Ah, your plan was routing THROUGH the bracket area with a Grommet for the Hose, then Banjo bolt into the Caliper. Interesting...
_________________
'68 Westy- my first VW and vehicle/Bus- long gone.- sold it to a traveling Swiss couple....
'67 Type 3 Fastback, my 2nd car- gone
'69 Semi-Auto Stick Shift Beetle-gone
2017 MINI Coopers, our current DDs
‘84 Tin Top - Hilga....Auto |
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jlrftype7
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Joined: July 24, 2018
Posts: 3576
Location: Chicago
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| Posted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 7:06 am Post subject: Re: Girling brake caliper question |
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| covelo wrote: |
| MarkWard wrote: |
| jlrftype7 wrote: |
| MarkWard wrote: |
| Another option might be to make a steel braid hose to replace the small metal tube and rubber hose. The caliper end could have a banjo bolt to adjust for clearance. |
The flex hose as stock comes down the bracket, and your short metal bent pipe takes it to the caliper. Are you thinking bypassing that bracket altogether and bolt directly to the caliper?
Bending a new pipe was not difficult, just had to measure where my fittings needed to end up. |
Yes. Fabricating a pipe has a couple challenges. One you need a flaring tool that can do bubble flairs. You need to have the tube nuts in place prior to bending and fitting since most flaring tools need an inch or more of straight tube to flare and most benders also need some straight length.
You also need to get the length correct at the same time. Not saying it can’t be done. I recently made lines for an 86. I used welding wire and bent a known length as a template. That got me close.
Edit. You don’t need to bypass the bracket. A rubber grommet size right will retain that securing point. |
Yes, I want to keep using that bracket. It turns out I need to add approximately 1.5 inches and then a 90* bend to the pipe. I was also worried about getting the tube nut around the bend. I was thinking I would measure the correct overall length and then put the nut in the right spot first before making the bend. Before embarking on this I will check my clearance just to make sure this makes sense. |
What I did was this for my pipe. Buy the shortest premade Brake Pipe from NAPA or other Parts Store. It will probably be appox 8" in length. Bend one of the ends for your 90 degree bend at the Caliper, keeping the bend as short as possible, without kinking the tube or trapping the fitting nut since it needs a tiny bit of movement for easier threading into the Caliper along the pipe.
Cut the bubble flare off the other end if you have bought or borrowed a flaring kit to reproduce the bubble flare once you've shortened your tube/pipe to the length it will need to be after flaring and any minor bending.
Clean the cut, slide the fitting nut down on the shortened pipe, make your flare, and install, bending the new short line as needed.
You'll lose a small amount in length from the flare being made.
We use a tool like this to flare with, there are cheaper, manual versions.
https://www.amazon.com/MASTERCOOL-72480-Silver-Fla...mp;sr=8-19
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'68 Westy- my first VW and vehicle/Bus- long gone.- sold it to a traveling Swiss couple....
'67 Type 3 Fastback, my 2nd car- gone
'69 Semi-Auto Stick Shift Beetle-gone
2017 MINI Coopers, our current DDs
‘84 Tin Top - Hilga....Auto |
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covelo
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Location: Fairfax, CA
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| Posted: Fri Jan 24, 2020 6:41 pm Post subject: Re: Girling brake caliper question |
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After seeing how little clearance I would have (picture below) I called Bus Depot and they are going to send me some replacements. Strangely, they couldn't guarantee that those would be the old versions (their supplier won't look in the warehoused boxes) but they thought it would be worth a try. I think any kind of solution would cut it awfully close and you don't want to create an avoidable sharp bend or potential rubbing situation in such a safety-critical part.
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'72 Bay Window Westfalia (with 2L AVP engine and dual solex carbs) -- sold in 2009 |
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IdahoDoug
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| Posted: Sat Jan 25, 2020 10:39 am Post subject: Re: Girling brake caliper question |
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You also have the option of rebuilding them if the BD replacements arrive again as the newer models. I was surprised how easy it was to rebuild mine with a $22 kit from Van Cafe. Probably took an hour on the bench including cleaning them with a wire brush.
Doug
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jlrftype7
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Location: Chicago
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| Posted: Sat Jan 25, 2020 2:51 pm Post subject: Re: Girling brake caliper question |
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| covelo wrote: |
After seeing how little clearance I would have (picture below) I called Bus Depot and they are going to send me some replacements. Strangely, they couldn't guarantee that those would be the old versions (their supplier won't look in the warehoused boxes) but they thought it would be worth a try. I think any kind of solution would cut it awfully close and you don't want to create an avoidable sharp bend or potential rubbing situation in such a safety-critical part.
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I should take a picture of mine pipe- It clears, doesn't rub, so it's doable, but at least you see how little room there was as I noted.
Looking at your picture, I think MarkWard's idea about the banjo bolt and a short hose going into the main flex line coming down would also work for someone who could get the right fittings crimped on the correct hose..
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'68 Westy- my first VW and vehicle/Bus- long gone.- sold it to a traveling Swiss couple....
'67 Type 3 Fastback, my 2nd car- gone
'69 Semi-Auto Stick Shift Beetle-gone
2017 MINI Coopers, our current DDs
‘84 Tin Top - Hilga....Auto |
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MarkWard
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| Posted: Sun Jan 26, 2020 3:04 pm Post subject: Re: Girling brake caliper question |
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Pegasus Auto Racing Supply is a good source for metric banjo bolts. 10 mm x 1.0 pitch rings a bell. You may need to shorten the banjo bolt if it bottoms out too soon. They can also supply hose, metric adapters, and hose ends you assemble yourself.
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covelo
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| Posted: Mon Jan 27, 2020 11:17 am Post subject: Re: Girling brake caliper question |
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A quick update: yesterday I got the replacement calipers from Bus Depot and they were the right ones. Very quick service (and Sunday delivery). So I'm going to stick with the original setup.
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'72 Bay Window Westfalia (with 2L AVP engine and dual solex carbs) -- sold in 2009 |
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