Author |
Message |
Steve M. Samba Member
Joined: July 30, 2013 Posts: 6833 Location: Fort Lauderdale, Fl.
|
Posted: Fri Apr 30, 2021 7:34 am Post subject: Re: The "great-life-lesson-on-limits-and-not-cheapening-out" Syncro |
|
|
4Gears4Tires wrote: |
I'm poppin bottles of coolant conditioner like a crackhead going through a medical cabinet. |
How many bottles and what brand?
You run the risk of sealing the passages in your "Auxilary Radiator", the heater core.
If you have used as many as you say I would drain and flush the coolant out and refill it fresh to get rid of the mixes of conditioner.
Then check to see if the heater is still working after you drain and flush.
You do not really want to check it before you drain and flush because if you open the valves then you're letting the sealing solution in to seal the heater core.
Then refill the coolant, drive and check the heater is putting out out air.
Then add the 2 bottles of the Subaru stuff.
Why is this important?
Summertime going up a hill in slow mode means reduce airflow through the radiator and you start to overheat.
Open the heater valves to max and you have an auxilary radiator to help cool the engine.
Works in stop & go traffic if you can stand the burning toes! _________________ This free advice is worth exactly what you paid for it.
There are seven days in a week. Someday is not one of them. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
4Gears4Tires Samba Member
Joined: October 08, 2018 Posts: 3054 Location: MD
|
Posted: Fri Apr 30, 2021 9:08 am Post subject: Re: The "great-life-lesson-on-limits-and-not-cheapening-out" Syncro |
|
|
Hah, I deleted the part because it's not really accurate but I guess you had the page loaded before I deleted it. But it may be accurate in the future. I just added a 2nd bottle of Subaru coolant conditioner to it. I may add a 3rd or 4th with the heatercore shut off. The motor just needs to last until next Jan. We'll see. I'm doubtful.
Using the heater core as a 2nd radiator is really important on old BMWs as well. Temps creeping? MAX HEAT! It was actually one of my hesitations to removing the rear heatercore because I'm losing cooling capacity! _________________ '87 Syncro
Ferric Oxyhydroxide Superleggera Edition |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Alan Brase Samba Member
Joined: March 28, 2004 Posts: 4532 Location: Cedar Falls, Iowa
|
Posted: Sun May 02, 2021 12:14 pm Post subject: Re: The "great-life-lesson-on-limits-and-not-cheapening-out" Syncro |
|
|
Sorry, I just joined this thread starting in the middle. Did you ever actually FIX the original problem?
My gut feeling is you have rust in your fuel tank. EVERY Vanagon I ever worked on had rust in the fuel tank. and sand. HOW IN THE F__K DOES SAND GET THERE?
FIX YOUR SAND LEAK
Put in a big NAPA can filter ahead of the fuel pump. Blast the sand out the tank and inlet screen of the fuel pump.
Ride your bikes. _________________ Al Brase
Projects: 67 sunroof bug, 67 Porsche 912 Targa, 70 Westy
Dec 1955 Single Cab pickup WANT 15" BUS RIMS dated 8/55, thru 12/55
To New owners: 1969 doublecab, 1971 Dormobile
Vanagons:
80 P27 Westy JUL 1979, 3rd oldest known US
83 1.6TD Vanagon, 87 Wolfie Westy daily driver, swap meet home |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Steve M. Samba Member
Joined: July 30, 2013 Posts: 6833 Location: Fort Lauderdale, Fl.
|
Posted: Sun May 02, 2021 12:19 pm Post subject: Re: The "great-life-lesson-on-limits-and-not-cheapening-out" Syncro |
|
|
4Gears4Tires wrote: |
Hah, I deleted the part because it's not really accurate but I guess you had the page loaded before I deleted it. But it may be accurate in the future. I just added a 2nd bottle of Subaru coolant conditioner to it. I may add a 3rd or 4th with the heatercore shut off. The motor just needs to last until next Jan. We'll see. I'm doubtful.
Using the heater core as a 2nd radiator is really important on old BMWs as well. Temps creeping? MAX HEAT! It was actually one of my hesitations to removing the rear heatercore because I'm losing cooling capacity! |
Even if you close off the heater core and add more Subaru Conditioner the extra amount is going to be in the system waiting for when you open the heater core.
I do not know if that extra would seal the heater core or not, but you can experiment and tell us! _________________ This free advice is worth exactly what you paid for it.
There are seven days in a week. Someday is not one of them. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
4Gears4Tires Samba Member
Joined: October 08, 2018 Posts: 3054 Location: MD
|
Posted: Sun May 02, 2021 12:38 pm Post subject: Re: The "great-life-lesson-on-limits-and-not-cheapening-out" Syncro |
|
|
It's not like I've got much to lose. But it does look like I've got more parts to order.
I smoke tested the van. I have never seen a vacuum leak at a throttle body before. But I suppose that makes sense if a bushing and not a bearing is used.
It's supposed to come out of the hole in the breather tower, right? That's not a light/shadow, that's smoke curling downwards from the top.
_________________ '87 Syncro
Ferric Oxyhydroxide Superleggera Edition |
|
Back to top |
|
|
dobryan Samba Member
Joined: March 24, 2006 Posts: 16508 Location: Brookeville, MD
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
4Gears4Tires Samba Member
Joined: October 08, 2018 Posts: 3054 Location: MD
|
Posted: Sun May 02, 2021 5:44 pm Post subject: Re: The "great-life-lesson-on-limits-and-not-cheapening-out" Syncro |
|
|
Alan Brase wrote: |
Sorry, I just joined this thread starting in the middle. Did you ever actually FIX the original problem?
My gut feeling is you have rust in your fuel tank. EVERY Vanagon I ever worked on had rust in the fuel tank. and sand. |
You've never worked on a Syncro then! Plastic tank, no rust. It was fairly clean inside when when I pulled it and redid all the seals, lines, and sender and it was cleaner when it went back in.
I fixed the original problem but several new problems have arisen and then subsequently squashed. Still fighting a new problem though, low power below 2500rpm. I think I will buy another ecu. Before I reflowed the solder points it ran fine across the power band except a random highway hiccup. After the solder reflow, no hiccup, but no power below 2500rpm. So reflowing the solder certainly changed things. Of course a replacement ecu is no guarantee either and it might behoove me to buy a cheap toaster oven and try to reflow the solder that way.
And of course GW's replacement throttle body is out of stock. But how much money do I want to keep throwing at this leaking motor? _________________ '87 Syncro
Ferric Oxyhydroxide Superleggera Edition |
|
Back to top |
|
|
dobryan Samba Member
Joined: March 24, 2006 Posts: 16508 Location: Brookeville, MD
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
Alan Brase Samba Member
Joined: March 28, 2004 Posts: 4532 Location: Cedar Falls, Iowa
|
Posted: Sun May 02, 2021 7:00 pm Post subject: Re: The "great-life-lesson-on-limits-and-not-cheapening-out" Syncro |
|
|
4Gears4Tires wrote: |
Alan Brase wrote: |
Sorry, I just joined this thread starting in the middle. Did you ever actually FIX the original problem?
My gut feeling is you have rust in your fuel tank. EVERY Vanagon I ever worked on had rust in the fuel tank. and sand. |
You've never worked on a Syncro then! Plastic tank, no rust. It was fairly clean inside when when I pulled it and redid all the seals, lines, and sender and it was cleaner when it went back in.
I fixed the original problem but several new problems have arisen and then subsequently squashed. Still fighting a new problem though, low power below 2500rpm. I think I will buy another ecu. Before I reflowed the solder points it ran fine across the power band except a random highway hiccup. After the solder reflow, no hiccup, but no power below 2500rpm. So reflowing the solder certainly changed things. Of course a replacement ecu is no guarantee either and it might behoove me to buy a cheap toaster oven and try to reflow the solder that way.
And of course GW's replacement throttle body is out of stock. But how much money do I want to keep throwing at this leaking motor? |
SORRY about that!
Well, my first phrase was s disclaimer. I did not start at the beginning. I did not realize it was a syncro. EVERY rusty Vanagon tank was rusty because the rollover valve gaskets at the top of the expansion tanks failed and let in water and sand.
Certainly hope you find the offending gremlin. I've found corroded wires in the harness that were not evident till I tugged on them and the terminal FELL off.
Wow. Subaru motors are nice, but Syncro trans is a little marginal.
Still one of the best vehicles ever built. Logged about 600k miles in several different T3's. Been on a tow truck ONE time. Waterboxers have been leaking since 1983. Not perfect. But not horrible, either. _________________ Al Brase
Projects: 67 sunroof bug, 67 Porsche 912 Targa, 70 Westy
Dec 1955 Single Cab pickup WANT 15" BUS RIMS dated 8/55, thru 12/55
To New owners: 1969 doublecab, 1971 Dormobile
Vanagons:
80 P27 Westy JUL 1979, 3rd oldest known US
83 1.6TD Vanagon, 87 Wolfie Westy daily driver, swap meet home |
|
Back to top |
|
|
djkeev Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007 Posts: 32634 Location: Reading Pennsylvania
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
Alan Brase Samba Member
Joined: March 28, 2004 Posts: 4532 Location: Cedar Falls, Iowa
|
Posted: Mon May 03, 2021 9:06 pm Post subject: Re: The "great-life-lesson-on-limits-and-not-cheapening-out" Syncro |
|
|
djkeev wrote: |
Just an FYI ......
Subarus leak coolant at bad head gaskets too.
So much so that Subaru marketed its very own stop leak product.
Dave |
Subie stop leak might be the best Subie swap? Certainly the easiest! _________________ Al Brase
Projects: 67 sunroof bug, 67 Porsche 912 Targa, 70 Westy
Dec 1955 Single Cab pickup WANT 15" BUS RIMS dated 8/55, thru 12/55
To New owners: 1969 doublecab, 1971 Dormobile
Vanagons:
80 P27 Westy JUL 1979, 3rd oldest known US
83 1.6TD Vanagon, 87 Wolfie Westy daily driver, swap meet home |
|
Back to top |
|
|
4Gears4Tires Samba Member
Joined: October 08, 2018 Posts: 3054 Location: MD
|
Posted: Wed May 05, 2021 2:59 pm Post subject: Re: The "great-life-lesson-on-limits-and-not-cheapening-out" Syncro |
|
|
Further testing. I swapped the AFM back to the original and unplugged the O2 sensor because Mark said something about it being best to test with the O2 sensor unplugged.
Immediately the drive is better (doesn't want to stall when I back out of my driveway and then pull forward) and although it does seem a bit slower, it is uniformly slower. The power band is nice and even. Drives fairly nicely. I get to my turn around point, engine coolant temp has been 190F for a few minutes by now, and plug the O2 sensor back in. As soon as I turn out onto the road, foot on the throttle and there is nothing happening until upper 2500/3000 rpm. Shift to 2nd, same deal so I pull over. Unplug O2 sensor and everything is fine and the van accelerates smoothly.
I get home and read these
https://www.vancafe.com/v/vspfiles/instructions/Vanagon%20ECU.pdf
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=357550
I ground out the green wire on the engine and there is no change in idle. I unplug the DIS and the van immediately dies. Oddly enough when I went back out to do this, 20-30 minutes later, the van would crank catch and die. Repeatedly. I plugged in the O2 sensor, no change. I jumped in the seat and turned it while flapping the throttle and it cranked caught and stayed running. Didn't need to keep playing with the throttle to keep it running. After 5 minutes of running, shutting it off and then turning it back on again was no problem.
I also unplugged my FPR to introduce a large vacuum leak and the idle stayed stable. The van wasn't phased at all by it. If I do this to my e30 (and I just did) which has a similar set up with Bosch engine management and idle control it instantly stumbles and starts to die.
Link
So to sum up: known throttle body vacuum leak. Van runs very poorly with O2 sensor connected. Idle is stable with or without the O2 sensor. Doesn't like to hot start after 20-30 minutes. Hot starting in under 5 minutes and cold start is a very fast impressive start.
I am not willing to buy a used throttle body unless someone has a smoke test verified good one. Until GW sorts out their supply issues, should I just rock the unplugged O2 sensor? Anyone think I have an additional issue besides the vacuum leak? (Like that cowbell clanging in the background? Because I have no idea what that is.) _________________ '87 Syncro
Ferric Oxyhydroxide Superleggera Edition |
|
Back to top |
|
|
dobryan Samba Member
Joined: March 24, 2006 Posts: 16508 Location: Brookeville, MD
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
4Gears4Tires Samba Member
Joined: October 08, 2018 Posts: 3054 Location: MD
|
Posted: Thu May 06, 2021 10:36 am Post subject: Re: The "great-life-lesson-on-limits-and-not-cheapening-out" Syncro |
|
|
GW's throttle body is back in stock. I just ordered it. _________________ '87 Syncro
Ferric Oxyhydroxide Superleggera Edition |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Alan Brase Samba Member
Joined: March 28, 2004 Posts: 4532 Location: Cedar Falls, Iowa
|
Posted: Thu May 06, 2021 10:56 am Post subject: Re: The "great-life-lesson-on-limits-and-not-cheapening-out" Syncro |
|
|
4Gears4Tires wrote: |
Further testing. I swapped the AFM back to the original and unplugged the O2 sensor because Mark said something about it being best to test with the O2 sensor unplugged.
Immediately the drive is better (doesn't want to stall when I back out of my driveway and then pull forward) and although it does seem a bit slower, it is uniformly slower. The power band is nice and even. Drives fairly nicely. I get to my turn around point, engine coolant temp has been 190F for a few minutes by now, and plug the O2 sensor back in. As soon as I turn out onto the road, foot on the throttle and there is nothing happening until upper 2500/3000 rpm. Shift to 2nd, same deal so I pull over. Unplug O2 sensor and everything is fine and the van accelerates smoothly.
I get home and read these
https://www.vancafe.com/v/vspfiles/instructions/Vanagon%20ECU.pdf
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=357550...
|
Gee, I thought is was common knowledge that the very first MINUTE your Digifant engine starts misbehaving , you get down on one knee and unhook the O2 sensor.
they have pretty good map in default mode that will be every bit as good as the L-Jetronic and you can always drive home.
ALSO, if you ever get an exhaust leak ahead of the cat (ahead of the sensor) it is imperative you put it into default by unplugging the sensor. Otherwise it will over fuel and melt your cat. _________________ Al Brase
Projects: 67 sunroof bug, 67 Porsche 912 Targa, 70 Westy
Dec 1955 Single Cab pickup WANT 15" BUS RIMS dated 8/55, thru 12/55
To New owners: 1969 doublecab, 1971 Dormobile
Vanagons:
80 P27 Westy JUL 1979, 3rd oldest known US
83 1.6TD Vanagon, 87 Wolfie Westy daily driver, swap meet home |
|
Back to top |
|
|
4Gears4Tires Samba Member
Joined: October 08, 2018 Posts: 3054 Location: MD
|
Posted: Thu May 06, 2021 5:40 pm Post subject: Re: The "great-life-lesson-on-limits-and-not-cheapening-out" Syncro |
|
|
Alan Brase wrote: |
Gee, I thought is was common knowledge that the very first MINUTE your Digifant engine starts misbehaving , you get down on one knee and unhook the O2 sensor. |
Nothing is common knowledge. Most members here have forgotten more than I have learned. When you joined The Samba I was just getting my drivers license.
Thanks for the tip about an exhaust leak ahead of the O2 sensor, which I most certainly have. _________________ '87 Syncro
Ferric Oxyhydroxide Superleggera Edition |
|
Back to top |
|
|
dobryan Samba Member
Joined: March 24, 2006 Posts: 16508 Location: Brookeville, MD
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
Alan Brase Samba Member
Joined: March 28, 2004 Posts: 4532 Location: Cedar Falls, Iowa
|
Posted: Thu May 06, 2021 10:50 pm Post subject: Re: The "great-life-lesson-on-limits-and-not-cheapening-out" Syncro |
|
|
4Gears4Tires wrote: |
Alan Brase wrote: |
Gee, I thought is was common knowledge that the very first MINUTE your Digifant engine starts misbehaving , you get down on one knee and unhook the O2 sensor. |
Nothing is common knowledge. Most members here have forgotten more than I have learned. When you joined The Samba I was just getting my drivers license.
Thanks for the tip about an exhaust leak ahead of the O2 sensor, which I most certainly have. |
I rebuilt my first VW engine (36hp 1956 Karmann Ghia) in 1965, at age 16. the gland nut came loose. I didn't get paid. We learn more from our mistakes than our successes. (Yes, I melted the cat in my first 2.1 WBX!)
Hang in there. _________________ Al Brase
Projects: 67 sunroof bug, 67 Porsche 912 Targa, 70 Westy
Dec 1955 Single Cab pickup WANT 15" BUS RIMS dated 8/55, thru 12/55
To New owners: 1969 doublecab, 1971 Dormobile
Vanagons:
80 P27 Westy JUL 1979, 3rd oldest known US
83 1.6TD Vanagon, 87 Wolfie Westy daily driver, swap meet home |
|
Back to top |
|
|
4Gears4Tires Samba Member
Joined: October 08, 2018 Posts: 3054 Location: MD
|
Posted: Mon May 17, 2021 6:35 am Post subject: Re: The "great-life-lesson-on-limits-and-not-cheapening-out" Syncro |
|
|
I installed the new GW throttle body. Pretty piece of hardware, although the throttle body does not open 100% which is a bit odd. It only opens 95%, I can easily see that the butterfly valve is not straight at full lock. I hope that's ok. You'd think they'd put a warning somewhere about it.
It solved my vacuum leak at the throttle body, of course. But introduced new issues. The idle is no longer set at 900rpm, seems to prefer 1100-1200rpm. Now the idle is anywhere from 900-2000rpm, however wherever it decides to be on that deceleration, the idle is stable. Which is odd. I maxed the screw adjuster which makes me think the next thing to look at is the idle control valve. How else can it get enough air to idle at 2000rpm if the idle adjustment screw is all the way in? And why is not at a consistent point, even though the idle is stable? But if it it's the idle control valve, why did fixing a vacuum leak at the throttle body affect how the idle control valve operates? Plenty of questions to mull over.
I have a new vacuum leak, out of the bottom of the distributor. Has anyone see this? How is this even possible? I assume this is coming from the crankcase, not intake. The smoke is right above the clamp. Any experience with this?
The van ran better than before with the O2 sensor connected, but it still runs the best with the O2 disconnected. I ran through a tank of gas and I got 15mpg, which I think is pretty good and doesn't really motivate me to reconnect the O2 sensor. If I got 16mpg or more I'd assume the van was running way lean.
I still need to remove the exhaust and try to put it back together so that it has zero leaks. I'm not looking forward to this. Even on a lift the job sucks.
I also seem to be losing a decent bit of oil consistently. I am going to try to calculate how much per 1k miles, but I'd guess it's probably a quart/1k miles. Zero drips anywhere. Although the intake elbow was fairly oily. Exhaust does not smoke blue, or white for that matter. Small mist around the crank seal. _________________ '87 Syncro
Ferric Oxyhydroxide Superleggera Edition |
|
Back to top |
|
|
4Gears4Tires Samba Member
Joined: October 08, 2018 Posts: 3054 Location: MD
|
Posted: Tue May 25, 2021 8:17 am Post subject: Re: The "great-life-lesson-on-limits-and-not-cheapening-out" Syncro |
|
|
A bit over 500 miles completed over the weekend, to Pittsburg and back. I noticed with the GW throttle body that although the idle will "stick" to 2000-2500rpm, if I blip the throttle over 3000 it will drop down to a regular idle area of 900-1100rpm or so. I am thinking the next thing I chase might be the idle control valve.
When I stopped at my destination in Pittsburg Friday night my overflow tank was overflowing a few drops. I thought maybe I was getting air into the system (again! argghh) but when I went to open my RMW coolant cap on Sunday morning it released quite a bit of pressure when I unlocked it. And the tank was full. Although I had my S.O. hold the throttle down at 3000rpm and added more coolant. On the journey home the coolant level in the overflow rose past max but it didn't overflow. I think I may be just overfilling the coolant system. I am going to drain coolant in the overflow down to max and on my next trip I will see what it does.
3 gas fill ups:
178.8 miles/11.15 gallons = 16.03mpg
204.7 miles / 12.00 gallons = 17.05mpg
178.3 miles / 10.97 gallons = 16.25mpg
Pretty consistent. Power feels pretty ok as well. Not in a huge hurry to reconnect the O2 sensor, I'll be honest. The van has a lot more power with it unconnected than with it connected. But removing the exhaust, cleaning/sanding/filing all mating surfaces and reinstalling it to be extra sure there are no leaks messing with the O2 sensor is still on the docket.
The van did pretty ok in the baby mountains in PA and Western MD. I think the slowest/longest mountain pass is South Mountain just NW of Frederick. It's 1200' of elevation and the W direction is pretty much a straight climb up. I found I could easily hold 55mph in 3rd gear. On some passes I wouldn't bother shifting out of 4th and just flat foot it slowing to around 50mph near the crests. If I saw a truck or something start climbing up behind me in the crawl lane, then I'd shift to 3rd and pull away with that neck breaking acceleration.
Crawling up some hill in PA
Peeking out at our destination, the Boggs mansion.
I thought I had taken more van pics but I guess not.
Overall I am pretty happy with the van, of course. But it would be nice if the AC worked (lines are cut, I need new ones) and if it had a bit more power. One annoying thing that I think I need to resolve is that the inner bike needs to be removed so I can swing out the tire carrier to open the rear hatch in order to access the engine. That's a bit clunky and needs some rework. Maybe a new rack will just tilt further down. _________________ '87 Syncro
Ferric Oxyhydroxide Superleggera Edition |
|
Back to top |
|
|
|