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Clutch disc hole size difference?
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2020 5:04 pm    Post subject: Re: Clutch disc hole size difference? Reply with quote

The type 4 manual transmission has a few "pieces" in common with the 091....but actually has a lot more in common with late 70's and early 80's Audi transmissions (it ought to...the type 4 cars were built by NSU).......but otherwise its very different than types, 1, 2 and 3.

As far as I know.....its the only air cooled vW with that small spline diameter on the main shaft....and teh mainshaft itself is a piece of work. Its about 38" long.

On one hand...I would love to have that disc. I have never in my life seen a "sprung" clutch disc available for a 411 or 412....and I have worked on more of them than probably anyone here (except maybe a European dealer mechanic).

On the other hand.....I would never use a 200mm clutch. I would at minimum take it in and have it rebuilt to a 210 or a 215 if they can. They should be able to.

I have been running 215's since the mid 90's. The clutch centers of the 210 and 215 are identical. They just build the 215's with 5mm larger diameter friction material. You can see this by looking at the edge of a stock 215 clutch. I am betting the 200 center disc is the same part.

If you want to see this strange type of ACVW transmission...this is my thread. The rebuild I have not gotten back to since early 2018. I spent a year trying to get bearings...got them and then moved. Its on hold for assembly until probably this summer.

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=639756&highlight

Ray
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oprn
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2020 1:24 pm    Post subject: Re: Clutch disc hole size difference? Reply with quote

Unfortunately my 411 is all still it tact and complete in the hay shed so I would have to drop and separate the engine/transaxle to check. I need to do that (I think the reverse idler has come adrift) but not right now.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2020 12:16 pm    Post subject: Re: Clutch disc hole size difference? Reply with quote

harrymarlin wrote:


Isn't the Thing a Type 4?


No, the Thing is a Type 1 derivative with a Type 1 engine.
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harrymarlin
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2020 11:28 am    Post subject: Re: Clutch disc hole size difference? Reply with quote

raygreenwood wrote:

and.....411 and 412's....are the only type 4 cars there are. The bus....is NOT a type 4. The bay buses simply use a version of the type 4 engine. The transmissions in buses are type 2....and bear no relation to the type 4 car transmission. Totally different design.

The 914 Porsche is also not a type 4. It simply uses a type 4 engine.
Ray


Isn't the Thing a Type 4?
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2020 10:00 pm    Post subject: Re: Clutch disc hole size difference? Reply with quote

harrymarlin wrote:
raygreenwood wrote:
Yes Laughing ....24 splines....24 spaces. The splines are 17.45mm. I will measure the actual clutch hub shortly. Bet its 17.5mm. Ray


Alright! So, do you believe this clutch disc would fit all Type 4s, or only 411s/412s? Any ideas on years?

- Harry


No....411/412 only....as far as I know. Yes....my discs are 17.5mm internal with the same number of splines.

Sorry the pictures are so bad. Usually I use a real camera but this was in my storage unit and my phone was all I had.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Possibly there are other makes of cars with the same spline and mainshaft size...but the size and spline count we are talking about here....is identical to a 411/412 for a 004 transmission....and there are no beetle clutch discs that fit my trans that I have ever found.


and.....411 and 412's....are the only type 4 cars there are. The bus....is NOT a type 4. The bay buses simply use a version of the type 4 engine. The transmissions in buses are type 2....and bear no relation to the type 4 car transmission. Totally different design.

The 914 Porsche is also not a type 4. It simply uses a type 4 engine.
Ray
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2020 7:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Clutch disc hole size difference? Reply with quote

I have one of these on my desk (Rebuilt OE VW).
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harrymarlin
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2020 5:53 pm    Post subject: Re: Clutch disc hole size difference? Reply with quote

raygreenwood wrote:
Yes Laughing ....24 splines....24 spaces. The splines are 17.45mm. I will measure the actual clutch hub shortly. Bet its 17.5mm. Ray


Alright! So, do you believe this clutch disc would fit all Type 4s, or only 411s/412s? Any ideas on years?

- Harry
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 4:19 pm    Post subject: Re: Clutch disc hole size difference? Reply with quote

Yes Laughing ....24 splines....24 spaces. The splines are 17.45mm. I will measure the actual clutch hub shortly. Bet its 17.5mm. Ray
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 1:31 pm    Post subject: Re: Clutch disc hole size difference? Reply with quote

harrymarlin wrote:
raygreenwood wrote:
I just measured one of my spare type 4....004....transmission mainshafts. It was just a quicky with a caliper....but its 17.43mm to 17.45mm.....and has 23 raised spline sections and 22 recessed sections between them. The disc hub should be just opposite that in numbers.


Here is mine. I count 24 grooves/recessions, 24 splines/risers (same as bugs). Could you verify your count (I believe the numbers of recessed and splines should be the same?)?

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


74 Thing wrote:
Have you tried to slip the disc over the tranny input shaft using your hands with it not installed on the flywheel/engine?


I didn't try this, as the physical measured sizes weren't the same.



Yes...I may easily have miscounted so I will count again! Laughing

It will probably be 23 and 23 but if I made that mistake at just a glance...it could easily be 24!
Ray
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harrymarlin
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2020 2:06 pm    Post subject: Re: Clutch disc hole size difference? Reply with quote

raygreenwood wrote:
I just measured one of my spare type 4....004....transmission mainshafts. It was just a quicky with a caliper....but its 17.43mm to 17.45mm.....and has 23 raised spline sections and 22 recessed sections between them. The disc hub should be just opposite that in numbers.


Here is mine. I count 24 grooves/recessions, 24 splines/risers (same as bugs). Could you verify your count (I believe the numbers of recessed and splines should be the same?)?

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


74 Thing wrote:
Have you tried to slip the disc over the tranny input shaft using your hands with it not installed on the flywheel/engine?


I didn't try this, as the physical measured sizes weren't the same.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2020 8:45 am    Post subject: Re: Clutch disc hole size difference? Reply with quote

Facinating about this little difference! This clutch disc came from a shop in Germany that was closing down (as I understand it), so it would make sense if it was for a pre-US transmission.

I'll re-count the splines tonight, to verify.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 5:47 pm    Post subject: Re: Clutch disc hole size difference? Reply with quote

oprn wrote:
Interesting! I wonder now what disc my '70 411 squareback has?


Please! Check it out if you can! A 1970 model is pre-US....so very well could be 200mm.

I just measured one of my spare type 4....004....transmission mainshafts. It was just a quicky with a caliper....but its 17.43mm to 17.45mm.....and has 23 raised spline sections and 22 recessed sections between them. The disc hub should be just opposite that in numbers.

I will have a detailed pic of a clutch disc hub in the am. Ray
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 5:41 pm    Post subject: Re: Clutch disc hole size difference? Reply with quote

Interesting! I wonder now what disc my '70 411 squareback has?
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74 Thing
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 11:52 am    Post subject: Re: Clutch disc hole size difference? Reply with quote

Have you tried to slip the disc over the tranny input shaft using your hands with it not installed on the flywheel/engine?
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 11:31 am    Post subject: Re: Clutch disc hole size difference? Reply with quote

harrymarlin wrote:
Thanks, Raygreenwood! The company who sold it to me, Classiccult, has great customer service, and is sending me another one (this one 1971). He measured it, and I'm sure I won't have problem with this one.

Still, it would be interesting to identify the use of this one...


Just sent an e-mail. I will check my spline size shortly. It would be great if it fits my car.
I have never in my life actually seen a 200mm type 4 clutch disc. They were never shipped here. They were very early...like 1968 and pretty much all carbed 411 cars with 1.7L.
Also...I have never seen a "sprung" clutch disc for any 411 or 412...except in pictures. They are all solid discs. Ray
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 11:08 am    Post subject: Re: Clutch disc hole size difference? Reply with quote

Thanks, Raygreenwood! The company who sold it to me, Classiccult, has great customer service, and is sending me another one (this one 1971). He measured it, and I'm sure I won't have problem with this one.

Still, it would be interesting to identify the use of this one...
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2020 12:38 pm    Post subject: Re: Clutch disc hole size difference? Reply with quote

What is the actual part #?

If its made in 1969....and its 17.5mm....its "possible"...that its actually for an early 411 or 412 engine.

That was a 200mm clutch diameter (the only one used with type 4 engines) and the type 4 manual transmission (called a 004) is a smaller than any other VW spline diameter. I will have to check my books to remember what it actually was.

The part # if it is correct will be 021 141 025....with no letter on the end. The later 021 141 025 "A"... was a 215mm but also used the same smaller spline and was never found with a sprung center.

Its possible you may have teh wrong disc if its that old. And...if it is a 411 part...I may be interested in it.

Oh...wait...correction 021 141 031 "A"....is the spring 200mm disc....and the 215 disc is a 022 prefix. So they did make a sprung 200mm version.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2020 12:38 pm    Post subject: Re: Clutch disc hole size difference? Reply with quote

Wrong disk. Input splines are all the same for ACVWs.

brad
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2020 12:01 pm    Post subject: Re: Clutch disc hole size difference? Reply with quote

Iím not aware of any variation in input shaft diameter over the years for any vehicle using a Type 1 engine. I think the most likely scenario is that clutch disc is for some other car, not a VW.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2020 11:17 am    Post subject: Clutch disc hole size difference? Reply with quote

I purchased a 200mm spring clutch disc (F&S) made in 1969 for, I understand, a Beetle, for my 1967 Beetle. Putting the engine in, now, the size is the same as the previous rigid disc (200mm), but the inner disc hole is smaller, so I can't get it to connect. My previous disc hole is 19.5mm diameter, and the new one is 17.5mm. The number of splines is correct, but I'm not sure how to get this to work with my stock transmission (and old style throw out bearing).

Any ideas on what might be happening here? I thought all 200mm clutch discs would be the same?

Here is what I purchased:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Thanks for any help!
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