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The mania deepens: 1991 Full Westy rescue
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bobhill8
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 17, 2021 8:04 pm    Post subject: Re: The mania deepens: 1991 Full Westy rescue Reply with quote

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what is the harm if i run the engine without the O2 sensor connected? i do not have to pass emissions as this is registered as an antique. i'd rather have a working emissions system, but... i'd also like to go camping with my son.


It's time to have some fun. The mania is too deep right now.
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dabaron
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 17, 2021 8:16 pm    Post subject: Re: The mania deepens: 1991 Full Westy rescue Reply with quote

bobhill8 wrote:
"what is the harm if i run the engine without the O2 sensor connected? i do not have to pass emissions as this is registered as an antique. i'd rather have a working emissions system, but... i'd also like to go camping with my son."

It's time to have some fun. The mania is too deep right now.


i had forgot to connect the AFM back in, so while it may idle great, it stalls out off idle. with the AFM connected it performs poorly and gets terrible gas mileage. i'd rather take the time in Smarch so come May it's adventure time with the engine woes behind me.
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DanHoug
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 17, 2021 8:34 pm    Post subject: Re: The mania deepens: 1991 Full Westy rescue Reply with quote

ok. your timing is good, that's good. new injectors, that's good. you're not confusing terms and your engine runs better with the AFM disconnected (i thought maybe you meant O2 disconnected)

now, with the engine runnining and the AFM cover off and plugged in, manually push the AFM vane forward and back. is there a sweet spot where it runs better? if you have to push against the spring tension to make it better, loosen the tension. visa versa. i did days of tuning on my spring tension to find the sweet spot to eliminate a bog on acceleration and not trash gas mileage. i used the mixture screw to get as close to 0.5v O2 sensor voltage at idle with the O2 sensor disconnected. i probably err'd on the high voltage side and let the ECU trim it back.

simple compression numbers should tell you whether you should've taken the other heads off. i'm thinking they're ok, we still might have a tuning issue here.

you gotta KNOW the injectors mist evenly, look at the spray patterns, don't assume. your ignition system is in top order, i've had wire sets fail in a couple years. your ignition coil tower and distributor cap is CLEAN, remove the black RF shield if present to inspect for cleanliness.

and for all the frustration, a 3 wire Bosch O2 sensor is $58. they have a replacement interval of 60k miles on this generation. i consider it a tune-up item.

anyway. you're a sharp guy. you'll get this.
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djkeev
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2021 3:41 am    Post subject: Re: The mania deepens: 1991 Full Westy rescue Reply with quote

I've clearly shown my lack of electric skills.

But

I've read in the past where oxygen sensors have been used as low cost exhaust gas sniffers to aid in checking emissions.

I went searching and......

I stumbled upon this product.

https://www.magnumtuning.com/en/detail/adjustable-oxygen-sensor-simulator/volkswagen/vanagon

Could it be helpful?

How does it work to control emissions and adjust fuel mixture?

Dave
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djkeev
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2021 6:17 am    Post subject: Re: The mania deepens: 1991 Full Westy rescue Reply with quote

Using voltage feed back from the O2 sensor is genius !

Your idea?

It sounds like a tedious adjustment procedure but I can see the value in it.

Watching with interest.

Makes me want to check my O2 sensor voltage!

Dave
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DanHoug
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2021 6:34 am    Post subject: Re: The mania deepens: 1991 Full Westy rescue Reply with quote

djkeev wrote:
I've clearly shown my lack of electric skills.

But

I've read in the past where oxygen sensors have been used as low cost exhaust gas sniffers to aid in checking emissions.

I went searching and......

I stumbled upon this product.

https://www.magnumtuning.com/en/detail/adjustable-oxygen-sensor-simulator/volkswagen/vanagon

Could it be helpful?

How does it work to control emissions and adjust fuel mixture?

Dave


that's a generic product with an "application" for Vanagons along with a thousand other cars. clever bit of marketing. it is strictly to get the CEL light to turn off. quoting from the website:
"No, oxygen sensor simulators are solely designed to treat oxygen sensor related codes. They are not intended to diagnose or control your engine management..."

stay away from this!!
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2021 6:50 am    Post subject: Re: The mania deepens: 1991 Full Westy rescue Reply with quote

djkeev wrote:
Using voltage feed back from the O2 sensor is genius !

Your idea?


That's how all cars are tuned. Usually the voltage is converted to AFR when displayed so it's easier to understand though.

A narrow band O2 sensor reads either plus or minus, as Dan said. But if you install a wideband you can get a spectrum of voltages to convert to AFRs. Usually 10-22 AFRs, which makes tuning a lot easier.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2021 6:53 am    Post subject: Re: The mania deepens: 1991 Full Westy rescue Reply with quote

AFR ......... ? Hmmmm ..... more electric stuff huh? Laughing
I was raised on 36 hp VW Beetles!

Dave
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2021 6:58 am    Post subject: Re: The mania deepens: 1991 Full Westy rescue Reply with quote

I have had a few headaches with the Innovate LC series (you also need to buy the gauge separately), the AEM UEGO has given me much easier performance.

https://www.aemelectronics.com/products/wideband-u...-afr-gauge

https://www.innovatemotorsports.com/products/lc2.php

The hardest part would be welding another bung onto the exhaust for UEGO. But, the LC-1 has a nice option that it allows you to split the signal and output both a wideband and a narrowband. So it could install directly into a Vanagon, output the narrowband into digifant and the wideband can go to the gauge.
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dabaron
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2021 7:15 am    Post subject: Re: The mania deepens: 1991 Full Westy rescue Reply with quote

here's the recap.

i bought a tin top with compression gases that were displacing coolant. i decided to rebuild the engine instead of just doing the head reseal routine.

once that engine was apart, it was apparent that it was worn out - the cam was toast, the jugs not great.

Dave had an engine he gave me. i tore it apart. the cam, lifters, crank, pistons and jugs were used with the case from the tin top. the jugs were honed at a machine shop and the pistons inspected.

i bought used AMC heads. i bought a GW exhaust. i bought a new 3 wire Bosch O2 sensor.

the engine had a misfire at idle after the rebuild.

over time the misfire progressed into more concerning running issues. the vast majority of these were resolved as i chased down leaks - the brake booster, the intake manifold boots, an injector seal. the backfiring and running issues all went away except for the random misfire at idle. it then started to get worse the more i drove it. it has about 2500 miles on it.

when i bought the Westy, the engine was running but had leaking head seals, very bad leaking. the engine ran and the Westy drove, it just was a coolant leaking disaster. it idled smoothly no misfires.

i pulled the engine from the tin top and put it in the Westy, the problems followed to the Westy. i swapped ecu, afm, coil, icv, iscm... no changes.

all FI sensors are within spec. all voltages are within spec.

the running issues have worsened over time. the last outing in the Westy it got 12MPG down from the 18 MPG i would get and there was a noticeable decrease in power... hills it climbed with aplomb were now walls to struggle up.

this is what made me think there was an issue with the heads, specifically a leaking exhaust valve.

i will perform a compression test. i opted for a leak down test since i was looking for leaks.

i will say after the heads were replaced, the idle with the AFM and O2 disconnected is much smoother than it ever was. there is a random miss present. with the AFM connected it is a gurgling backfiring beast.
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AceTaylor
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2021 9:16 am    Post subject: Re: The mania deepens: 1991 Full Westy rescue Reply with quote

Seems like you checked all the boxes except camshaft timing. Is it possible that when it went back together the camshaft is off a tooth? Just throwing it out there.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2021 9:47 am    Post subject: Re: The mania deepens: 1991 Full Westy rescue Reply with quote

AceTaylor wrote:
Seems like you checked all the boxes except camshaft timing. Is it possible that when it went back together the camshaft is off a tooth? Just throwing it out there.


cam is correct, i have a photo of it somewhere... when it was first run after rebuild it only had a random miss. it started to run rough and those problems were unmetered air related. the idling improved as i addressed each of the issues. now has returned to that rough idling with the AFM connected.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2021 9:54 am    Post subject: Re: The mania deepens: 1991 Full Westy rescue Reply with quote

Cam lobe go?

Dave
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2021 10:18 am    Post subject: Re: The mania deepens: 1991 Full Westy rescue Reply with quote

djkeev wrote:
Cam lobe go?

Dave


it idles well with the AFM disconnected - just has a random miss. connect the AFM and it instantly starts gurgling, missing, and backfiring.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2021 2:28 pm    Post subject: Re: The mania deepens: 1991 Full Westy rescue Reply with quote

and the compression numbers are...

***drumroll***

#1 - 133
#2 - 135
#3 - 133
#4 - 135

as Dave said, "nothing wrong there."


now for glamour shots of the plugs!


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


cylinder #1 - um, a touch wet?


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


cylinder #2 - powdery carbon


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


cylinder #3 - they all looked like this when i put them in


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


cylinder #4 - powdery carbon
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2021 3:04 pm    Post subject: Re: The mania deepens: 1991 Full Westy rescue Reply with quote

okay... some guesses. yes, #1 is drenched and either isn't firing well or there's something nasty with the injector.

#2&#4 are way too rich, which if #1 isn't firing makes sense because the O2 sensor is sensing extra oxygen from cyl #1. also supported by your low O2 volts unplugged.

#3, while the nicest burn, SHOULD be over rich so i'm guessing a clogged injector that with the extra dwell time the ECU is turning on the injectors, this inadvertently compensates for the clogging.

all this is guessing. were this van mine i'd immediately pull the injector pairs and look at the spray. next, i'd replace the O2 sensor if it hasn't been done in 60K miles. lastly, i'd strongly consider new plug wires, i know you said they're 'pretty new'. i'd also measure the AFM spring tension to make sure it is somewhere around 110 grams on lifting off of rest position. i think you said you had a new Temp II sensor, if not, change that out too for $15.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2021 3:26 pm    Post subject: Re: The mania deepens: 1991 Full Westy rescue Reply with quote

one more thing..... i'd put a NEW set of plugs in ASAP. it sounds like you put used plugs in. don't worry about getting NGK BP6ETs for this, just buy some new Champion or whatever swill from the nearest FLAPS to test with. you've very likely got firing issues going on.

actually, what i'd REALLY do is put this on the SUN Ignition Scope i restored but that'd be cheating.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2021 3:49 pm    Post subject: Re: The mania deepens: 1991 Full Westy rescue Reply with quote

i bought the plugs, wires, temp2, and a new coil in Jan 2020 hoping they would resolve the issues. these are not resolved. i pulled the plugs and they are all firing. i threw in four new Bosch no change.

only thing left is injectors. i'll swap those out tomorrow, i'm tired of getting rained on.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2021 4:05 am    Post subject: Re: The mania deepens: 1991 Full Westy rescue Reply with quote

So, the Vanagon ECU has a map built in to run without feedback from an O2 sensor.
Can we assume it has a "limp mode" programmed in to run without the AFM plugged in?

I remember when Judo Jeff picked up his current Van from my house. I had done some pretrip work, mainly fixing a huge fuel leak above the starter.

I failed to plug in the AFM and he took off!

He called, it ran, but not well.
Upon inspection he found the AFM plug hanging there.
Plugged it in and off he went!

Anyway, if there is a limp mode programmed into the ECU and the engine runs much better with the AFM unplugged, does that not scream bad or misadjusted AFM?
Maybe a cracked wire in the harness?

With no AFM there is no air temperature feedback or throttle position feed back. Except for the throttle position switch which only comes into play at idle or full throttle.

At idle, the TPS is telling the ECU to activate the Idle Control System.

Is there an interaction between the AFM and the Idle Control? Good or Bad?
Thus Unplugging the AFM cancels this interaction resulting in a smoother running engine?

At idle, except for the Air Temp feedback, the AFM is essentially "off duty"?
The Idle Control System is now in charge...... Yes?

If so, what is that interaction and how do you find it?

If you unplug the AFM and jump terminals 1 & 4 on the AFM to the proper locations on the plug....... what happens?
You would be putting the air temp back online without involving the air door circuit.

Dave
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2021 4:43 am    Post subject: Re: The mania deepens: 1991 Full Westy rescue Reply with quote

To complicate life,

This engine used to be in my Van and he had the miss problem.

He moved the engine to his current Westy, the miss followed into the new Van.

What moved with the engine?

Distributor
Idle Control Valve
Crankcase vapor heater
TPS ..... but he has since installed a GoWesty Throttle Valve. Or dud the GoWesty valve cone before the engine transplant?
Injectors
Plugs
Plug Wires

The harness, the ECU, the AFM, the Idle Relay are all in my Van and seem to work just fine (or maybe I have lower standards?) with my current engine made by combining 4gears case with dobryan's upper end bolt on's and a head from another source.

What is in his transferred engine that is causing this running issue?

Dave
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