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Vanagon Nut
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Joined: February 08, 2008
Posts: 10368
Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
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 Posted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 4:42 pm Post subject: Re: Rain Water In Snorkel, Burned by Engine? |
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Haha. Ya we do have our ways up here. And, I used duct tape last night to make a cardboard "oven" to heat up fresh paint on rear bumper for my 81 ! 
It's starting to rain again so I look forward to checking my air cleaner soon.
Neil.
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1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA
1988 West DIY 50º ABA
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Vanagon Nut
Samba Member
Joined: February 08, 2008
Posts: 10368
Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
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| Posted: Tue Feb 04, 2020 11:36 am Post subject: Re: Rain Water In Snorkel, Burned by Engine? |
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Another thread here prompted me to look at South African engines thus air cleaners.
Images below are for the 1.8 AAX petrol engine in a 1998 South African made T3
13 is a drain valve for these SA Vanagon model years:
http://www.oemepc.com/tvn_result/search/tvn/BCX129655
It's interesting to see how short the snorkel may be. As per earlier comments, I wonder if a drain could be put at first bend at snorkel?
The 2.3 and 2.6 use a different air filter with longer snorkel (intake pipe)
http://www.oemepc.com/vw/part_single/catalog/vw/ma...609/lang/e
http://www.oemepc.com/vw/part_single/catalog/vw/ma...577/lang/e
As an aside, the AAX appears to fit below the engine cover. It makes me wonder if the ACC mono-motronic engine would as well.
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1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA
1988 West DIY 50º ABA
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82westyrabbit
Samba Member
Joined: March 02, 2015
Posts: 968
Location: Ma
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| Posted: Wed Feb 05, 2020 6:34 pm Post subject: Re: Rain Water In Snorkel, Burned by Engine? |
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| They got all the weird stuff in other countries. Not that I want a carburetor back but it still looks like fun. I think what you have already done will work with just a little more adjusting. Mine is hung from the top of bay on the factory mounts and cut down as much as possible so it would fit better. I don’t have a airflow sensor on mine so it might a little shorter than yours. I cut off the ears on the air box so I can put the clamp anywhere I want that way I can change the air filter with out removing the air box from van. I don’t have any better pictures than what I have in my gallery and they aren’t that good. Fortunately or not my three mouth stay in Dallas has turned into a year job so it would hard for me to get better pictures at the moment. John |
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Vanagon Nut
Samba Member
Joined: February 08, 2008
Posts: 10368
Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
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| Posted: Wed Feb 05, 2020 10:04 pm Post subject: Re: Rain Water In Snorkel, Burned by Engine? |
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| 82westyrabbit wrote: |
| ....I think what you have already done will work with just a little more adjusting. Mine is hung from the top of bay on the factory mounts and cut down as much as possible so it would fit better. I don’t have a airflow sensor on mine so it might a little shorter than yours. I cut off the ears on the air box so I can put the clamp anywhere I want that way I can change the air filter with out removing the air box from van. I don’t have any better pictures than what I have in my gallery and they aren’t that good. Fortunately or not my three mouth stay in Dallas has turned into a year job so it would hard for me to get better pictures at the moment. John |
Congrats on the job. I'll have another look at your build thread.
To change the filter, I have to move the air box laterally towards passenger side to separate the "coolant" hose union from MAF to allow removal of the MAF+lid.
In terms of air box position, I kind of "boxed myself in a corner", nearly literally, because the long steel tube in combination with the short stiff rubber union to MAF on box doesn't really allow me to tilt the intake end of box up very much.
I left the ears on thinking I'd make use of the rubber isolators in them but if need be, I'll cut them.
I'm over thinking things as usual. Moreover, the issue could be as simple as something like the snorkel being up against body metal thus allowing water to creep in.
View from front looking to rear at passenger side corner of engine bay
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1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA
1988 West DIY 50º ABA
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Vanagon Nut
Samba Member
Joined: February 08, 2008
Posts: 10368
Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
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| Posted: Fri Feb 07, 2020 7:24 pm Post subject: Re: Rain Water In Snorkel, Burned by Engine? |
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| Vanagon Nut wrote: |
I'm leaning towards water getting in the fuel tank but .... I wonder if it's getting into snorkel or in via a poor connection between snorkel and hose.
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So, I'm now leaning towards "yes" to water getting in via poor connection at snorkel. LOL
I started taking apart the intake at throttle body bellows then eventually tilted the air box end up:
at least 1.5 cups of water poured out the air box. The filter was absolutely saturated with water!
This was after 2 days not run; one day had intermittent light rain the other had a heavier amount of rain. 
Starting it cold, no smoke, and exhaust did not smell super rich as it typically would after a rainy day. Gee, do you think water was causing a rich mix? LOL.
Finding this, and another super slow coolant leak at a hose union most likely means the engine is not burning coolant. I'm stoked about that.
I'm nearly certain water was coming in where the flexible hose connects to the Vanagon snorkel. The OE WBX plastic elbow I did not re use on this swap has an obvious drain hole and expanded kind of dip on the lower bend. It's there to capture and drain water. Like duh.
Enjoy your schadenfreude LOL.
Neil.
First clue. Long custom metal intake pipe
second clue. Inlet of air cleaner
1/2 cup minimum poured out MAF when I tiled air box then I captured about 1 cup of water. I could actually "wring" water out of the air filter. I can't believe the engine actually ran ok.
Looking at passenger side rear pillar. Arrow points to stream of water.
that water appears to have dripped along outside of pillar, onto snorkel here, then in between hose and snorkel.
As I pulled on snorkel, flexible hose came a bit loose. It could've been tighter but I think there might've been a tendency for water to get in through there regardless.
view from top of snorkel. From top down, about 85% of the snorkel was bone dry.
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1988 West DIY 50º ABA
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Vanagon Nut
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Joined: February 08, 2008
Posts: 10368
Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
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| Posted: Wed Feb 19, 2020 11:59 am Post subject: Re: Rain Water In Snorkel, Burned by Engine? |
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Thanks again for all the help folks.
edit: i used a wire brush to clear loose rust flakes from steel intake tube, covered ID with Fluid Film, wiped excess off.
I'm calling this issue "solved"; no more smoke etc. at first cold start after it rains.
Causes of water ingress:
- hose clamp at wire reinforced "bilge" hose caused wire reinforcing to malform and fit poorly. Or, wire hose never took the shape of snorkel oval end.
- lip at edge of hose might've provided a bit of a "funnel" to catch water
- hose clamp may've loosened over time
I installed a makeshift "skirt" to help shed water off that join. I may remove that, and clamp, then install a rubber sleeve with cable strap at upper end of sleeve to cover hose to snorkel join. Maybe use old piece of tire inner tube?
Air box intake hole is now at 12:00 position, there's a new drain hole at new "bottom". Box inlet end is angled lower and a "hair" above the bottom sheet metal in front of tail light. If there's an OE plug at that sheet metal, I may remove it.
Neil.
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1988 West DIY 50º ABA
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SCM
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Joined: January 26, 2011
Posts: 3114
Location: Bozeman MT
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| Posted: Wed Feb 19, 2020 1:41 pm Post subject: Re: Rain Water In Snorkel, Burned by Engine? |
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Someone once told me that duct tape was invented during WWII to patch holes in B-52s. As I type that I'm skeptical, but...
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'91 Westfalia GL Automatic (GTA "Turbo" Rebuild w/Peloquin) and 2.3L GoWesty Engine |
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Vanagon Nut
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Joined: February 08, 2008
Posts: 10368
Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
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| Posted: Wed Feb 19, 2020 3:47 pm Post subject: Re: Rain Water In Snorkel, Burned by Engine? |
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| SCM wrote: |
| Someone once told me that duct tape was invented during WWII to patch holes in B-52s. As I type that I'm skeptical, but... |
Well, ironically, I did use gorilla tape and cable strap as the added "skirt" on the snorkel. Lol. A temporary measure especially since the tape doesn't stick as well as i thought it might.
Neil.
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1988 West DIY 50º ABA
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Jeffrey Lee
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Joined: February 04, 2014
Posts: 1488
Location: Wisconsin
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| Posted: Wed Feb 19, 2020 4:28 pm Post subject: Re: Rain Water In Snorkel, Burned by Engine? |
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| Vanagon Nut wrote: |
| A temporary measure especially since the tape doesn't stick as well as i thought it might. |
Duct tape also degrades surprisingly quickly, especially in exterior applications like this. I guess it was intended to last just long enough for a couple of bombing sorties ...
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Vanagon Nut
Samba Member
Joined: February 08, 2008
Posts: 10368
Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
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| Posted: Wed Feb 19, 2020 5:13 pm Post subject: Re: Rain Water In Snorkel, Burned by Engine? |
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| Jeffrey Lee wrote: |
| Vanagon Nut wrote: |
| A temporary measure especially since the tape doesn't stick as well as i thought it might. |
Duct tape also degrades surprisingly quickly, especially in exterior applications ... |
My original thought was to put on a rubber plumbing reducer to act as a cover over the join. But at minimum, there really isn't room for a part like that nor is there one with suitable ID's.
The OE air duct inside the pillar has a depression at bottom of bend to sort of act as a water gatherer. Of course there is a drain hole at that point.
I now see one reason why a company like FAS would re use the stock WBX air box on their swap.
Neil.
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1988 West DIY 50º ABA
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bluebus86
Banned
Joined: September 02, 2010
Posts: 11075
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| Posted: Wed Feb 19, 2020 7:13 pm Post subject: Re: Rain Water In Snorkel, Burned by Engine? |
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| SCM wrote: |
Someone once told me that duct tape was invented during WWII to patch holes in B-52s. As I type that I'm skeptical, but... |
It was invented for the patching the leaky roof of the B-52 Love Shack so I was told.
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Help Prevent VW Engine Fires, see this link.....Engine safety wire information
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Jake de Villiers
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Joined: October 24, 2007
Posts: 5911
Location: Tsawwassen, BC
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| Posted: Thu Feb 20, 2020 9:40 am Post subject: Re: Rain Water In Snorkel, Burned by Engine? |
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| SCM wrote: |
| Someone once told me that duct tape was invented during WWII to patch holes in B-52s. As I type that I'm skeptical, but... |
You should be sceptical: the B-52 first flew in 1952, well after WWII!!
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'84 Vanagon GL 1.9 WBX
'86 Westy Weekender Poptop/2.5 Subaru/5 Speed Posi/Audi Front Brakes/16 x 7 Mercedes Wheels - answers to 'Dixie'
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Vanagon Nut
Samba Member
Joined: February 08, 2008
Posts: 10368
Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
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| Posted: Sun Mar 01, 2020 9:35 am Post subject: Re: Rain Water In Snorkel, Burned by Engine? |
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| Vanagon Nut wrote: |
Causes of water ingress:
- hose clamp at wire reinforced "bilge" hose caused wire reinforcing to malform and fit poorly.
- hose clamp may've loosened over time
I installed a makeshift "skirt" to help shed water off that join. I may remove that, and clamp, then install a rubber sleeve with cable strap at upper end of sleeve to cover hose to snorkel join. Maybe use old piece of tire inner tube?
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So my trip to another local tire shop yielded a stunning selection of used free inner tubes. I can double check size but IIRC, when squished flat, the tube I used was 4" wide. I was lucky to find one that fit tight to snorkel and hose. I deleted the hose clamp, re applied two beads of red RTV at hose to snorkel join.
temporary duct tape "skirt". There was a cable strap on it.
Installed sleeve to snorkel, applied RTV, joined to hose, rolled sleeve down. A bizarre condom affair.
Even though the inner tube is curved it fit fine. Rolling sleeve down tended to push the hose off but it is possible to shimmy things around so that the hose stays butted up against the lip at snorkel. Long needle nose pliers helped with this. That same lip provided an excellent spot for the cable strap as shown.
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1988 West DIY 50º ABA
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