Help with a prospect - 1988 Westy

[Porcupine Caribou]

Hey folks - first timer here, hopefully back for the long haul once I find my Vanagon.

I live in small town western Canada so don't have a lot of prospects nearby. One just popped up 'only' a 4-hour drive away. The owner has provided a ton of information and some photos.

The Good:
- Last 10 years of maintenance/upgrades well documented
- Low mileage (odo stuck at 103km/60k miles, estimated at 155km currently)
- 15" mercedes wheel upgrade
- Bilstein HD shock, springs, sway bar upgrade
- Fridge delete, added Engel 60l
- 140W solar and high capacity aux battery system
- Upgraded starter
- LED headlight upgrade
- New instrument cluster/lights
- Brakes, master cylinder done recently
- Roof rack, ARB 2500 awning
- Fuel lines done (last was 2011 though?)

My concerns:
- Original 2.1l engine, no gasket/seal, valve or rebuild work done (but regular coolant changes and no leaks apparently)
- Some seam, window rust starting and one larger spot ahead of passenger rear wheel well.

Photos of the rusty bits:

I've read up on the rust in the forums here and know dealing with it comprehensively with a full repaint can be $$$.

I'm not looking to have a show-winner, but don't want a vehicle that will disintegrate within few years either. This one seems to have a LOT of the major upgrades that I would be looking to do myself, so it's appealing in that sense vs buying a cheaper vehicle and throwing $5k or more at upgrades right off the bat. But I'd like to avoid needing to throw $5-10k at the rust or engine in the next few years too.

They're asking $20k CAD / $15k USD, which seems like a good price - more affordable than similar vans on the west coast anyways which would seem to be closer to $30K CAD / $22K USD or so.

Presuming mileage is accurate and proper fluids have been replaced regularly, how much of a ticking time bomb is the original 2.1 engine? Why/when would I be concerned that a rebuild hasn't been done?

From what you can see of the rust in the photos (no perforation reported), are there solutions that will repair or stall the progression of the rust short of doing a full $$$$ ($10K or more?) panels-off inspect, repair, repaint?

If the last time the fuel lines were done was indeed 2011, would you suggest re-doing them preventively?

I know the answer to a lot of this will be "it depends", but thanks for letting me think out loud... I really appreciate the wealth of info & experience here![/img]

[valvecovergasket]

to me that looks like the tip of a massively crusty iceberg. but my perspective - as one who shies away from bodywork and is used to west coast vehicles - may be a bit skewed.

id tend toward something that needed mechanical work over body work, but i suppose everyones different.

15k for an otherwise sorted but rusty late westy doesnt seem like that bad of a deal though.
id probably plan on pulling all the windows at least to get the rust there taken of so it doesnt leak and wreak havoc inside.
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MegaSquirt resource - SpitfireEFI.com

gone, but not forgotten: '83 tdi westy - swap thread

[SyncroButter]

Agree with valvecovergasket that I would always prefer a vehicle that requires mechanical work over one that needs body work, not sure I agree about this one looking particularly crusty... from the pics the rust all appears in typical spots and I regularly see Westies tooling around Seattle with way more rust.

Some more specific response:

- Last 10 years of maintenance/upgrades well documented
Yes this is good, and a good sign that the last owner took ownership seriously.

- Low mileage (odo stuck at 103km/60k miles, estimated at 155km currently)
I would not put a price premium on "low mileage" for any Westy but this is a good data point re: your later question about engine rebuild history etc

- 15" mercedes wheel upgrade
Nice upgrade to have, depending on wheels anywhere from $200 to $800 value here

- Fridge delete, added Engel 60l
Very nice upgrade, much more usable than stock system if your intent is to go camping

- 140W solar
Nice, but need to find out more to assign a value... what kind of solar panels (some are mounted to the pop top or rack, others are portable so you can park in the shade but put the panels in the sun etc), what kind of charge controller, etc

- high capacity aux battery system
Need way more info here: what kind of batteries and how many, when were the batteries manufactured (since they do have a shelf life), are they wired to a shore power charger, do they have a smart separation system like an ACR, etc. I could spend $100 at Costco for a 80 amp hour 12V marine battery and direct wire it i n the stock aux position beneath driver seat and label it as a high capacity aux system... or I could spend $600 on four Trojan 105s (460 amp hours) and install them with a Blue Seas ACR ($100), a master isolation switch ($50) and a hard wired charger rated for this kind of system ($200) and install it all under the bench seat with appropriate install to keep them from careening around the cabin during a rollover crash. Worth figuring out what you would actually be getting here.

- Bilstein HD shock, springs, sway bar upgrade
- Upgraded starter
- New instrument cluster/lights
- Brakes, master cylinder done recently
These are all basically regular maintenance items, good sign that they are done but no price premium

- Fuel lines done (last was 2011 though?)
Getting toward end of life, general guidance is 10 year effective life for fuel lines with modern ethanol blend gas. Fortunately this is an easy job to do as a new owner, if you buy this westy then you should budget $100 for materials and a few hours of your time in the next few years.

- Original 2.1l engine, no gasket/seal, valve or rebuild work done (but regular coolant changes and no leaks apparently)
You will get a ton of opinions about the 2.1, I have one vehicle with an original 2.1 and another where I have swapped it for a Bostig/Ford Zetec and could argue for either one. Whether a 2.1 is the right engine for you depends to some extent on your own mechanical abilities, if you are comfortable swinging a wrench and the idea of setting timing, troubleshooting electrical with a multimeter, changing out sensors as part of your regular maintenance etc then the 2.1 is a fine (if somewhat outdated) engine whose major failings in my opinion are common to many early generation computer controlled engines.
As far as rebuild history etc if the vehicle is really at around 60k miles then this sounds right. That being said I would get compression numbers from the engine to tell you how things are really going. A prior purchase inspection (PPI) from a reputable shop would get you this and more and is a good investment in my opinion.

- Some seam, window rust starting and one larger spot ahead of passenger rear wheel well.
Assuming there really is no other visible rust than in the spots pictured I would not be too worried about this and would not let it scare me away form the vehicle. Assume that actual rust is always at least twice as bad once you peel away paint and are looking at the metal. See if you can get the owner to send you detailed pictures of the other common rust areas:
the entire body lower body panel area behind driver door to the rear wheel arch below the various camper hookup boxes. This area (and especially the seam where the floor meets the rest of the body) is the source of the notorious "kitchen seam rust."
all wheel arches
the area just below windshield
all body seams
the quarter panels behind the rear wheels
the footwells below the front doors
The wheel arch spot looks gross, but the good news is that this area is not structural. Down toward the bottom of the photo you can see where the trailing arm attaches to the body, that area is the critical one for rust in this area and it looks pretty clean to me. This is a very common area for rust issues so there are panels available if you want to cut out and replace.
The areas in the window channel are also very common rust areas, also not structural and a fairly common fix.
With first time owners and rust, as long as the rust is not structural (and this stuff does not appear structural based on pics) I would recommend doing something to "arrest" the rust with a converting agent (typically with Ospho or another phosphoric acid product) and something to deny air/water to the area (like fluid film) and then enjoying your westy for a few years before tackling the rust.
Once it is time to tackle the rust, your issues are in a small enough area that I would consider not doing the full repaint and instead doing spot repairs assuming the rest of the paint is in good shape. A good repair is nearly invisible.

Big picture takeaway:
Assuming the engine numbers come back good AND the body rust really is limited to what you see in the pictures then $20k CAD seems like a good price to me.
_________________
Grant
In the stable: 1986 Syncro Westfalia/Bostig, 1989 Doka Tristar, 1974 Vespa Rally 200, 1973 Vespa Primavera 125, 1963 Solex 2200, 1938 Buick Special
Gone but not forgotten: 1989 Porsche 944, 1973 Standard Beetle

[Vanagon Nut]

[Porcupine Caribou]

Wow thanks for the excellent responses. It's really helpful to get a sense that the rust doesn't seem to be in the most structurally critical places, and that mitigation or eventual repair shouldn't need to require a complete re-paint.

Here's a little more detail on the solar components, from the spreadsheet of maintenance records he sent me (spreadsheet has to be a good sign, right?). This was all done in 2014:

- $500 CAD 140w panel from Keln Solar (local company focused on commercial/residential market)
- $415 CAD for battery from Total Battery (that's the retailer not the brand, unfortunately)
- $355 CAD on other parts from Northern Arizona Wind & Solar

The owner just sent me a link, and evidently he borrowed his design from the one described here:

http://www.drivenachodrive.com/about-nacho/solar-electricity-for-nacho-vanagon/

Here are a few more pics of some front windshield area and undercarriage mentioned to keep an eye out for rust:

Thanks again - this community is definitely one of the reasons I'm even considering taking the plunge on a 30+ year old vehicle. I'm not afraid of doing some basic maintenance (had always done my own oil changes, plugs) but undoubtedly still in the 'newbie' category when it comes to anything else.

[Merian]

do you own a body shop?
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[Porcupine Caribou]

[valvecovergasket]

wow the underside doesnt really look too bad considering the nasty shape of the other rust bits...

i have no idea what a shop would charge to fix/fill/new metal on the windows but maybe call around and ask or share some pictures with them. even if youve pulled the windows prior to bringing it to them id look to do that work as soon as you transferred it to your name
_________________
MegaSquirt resource - SpitfireEFI.com

gone, but not forgotten: '83 tdi westy - swap thread

[old_man]

[Howesight]

I realize that $20,000 does not necessarily buy a lot of Westfalia these days, but I can say that out of all the things you might want in a used Vanagon Westy, a non-rusty body or expertly repaired body is the most important.

Every one of those "rust-bubble" areas will feature a perforation and will require metal repair. Saskatchewan used to use less road salt, but this has changed, meaning that Canada's former "less rusty" province has joined the rest of rusty Canada.

I suggest that you keep looking for a westy with less rust, trying the various parts of Western Canada and the US with less rust-causing salt. Beware Florida Westfalia's by the way since they are ridiculously rusty for a no-snow part of the world! It's probably the high humidity and salt air in Florida.

I was curious what might pop up on Craigslist and quickly found this 1985 gem in the Sacramento area listed at $17,500 USD ($23,275 CAD):

https://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/cto/d/albany-vanagon-westfalia-camper/7072842174.html

That $20,000 van is going to break your heart if you can't do your own bodywork and rust repair. A rust repair plus full re-spray would likely cost $8,000 to $10,000 CAD locally to do. If you have the skills, then the Saskatchewan Westy would be a good candidate for repair, but the $20,000 price might need to be bargained down a bit.

Here's a nice survivor from the Bay area in California at $14,500 USD:

https://sfbay.craigslist.org/sby/cto/d/holy-city-1986-vw-vanagon-westfalia/7072360208.html


Here's another nice survivor in Vacaville:

https://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/cto/d/vacaville-1985-volkswagen-westfalia/7072330215.html

Here's a nice deal in Walnut Creek at only $11,500 USD:

https://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/cto/d/walnut-creek-1985-volkswagen-vw/7072241722.html
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'86 Syncro Westy SVX

[Merian]

[jocoman]

Looks like the front clam shell is missing. That is the part that holds the spare.
Might want to ask if he still has it.
The underside looks pretty good, but I think he is asking a bit much for the condition its in.
Many (most?) vans in eastern Canada (Ontario and Quebec) are put away for the winter and a lot of them are in very good condition.
These vans are money pits no matter what you buy so be forewarned however they are very rewarding.
https://www.kijiji.ca/v-cars-trucks/windsor-area-on/1982-vanagon/1487057095

for example
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'86 Westfalia 2.0L Zetec
'97 Volvo 850 AWD Turbo
" The fun never stops"

[Porcupine Caribou]

[Porcupine Caribou]

[syncro2x]

The clam shell is gone but has been replaced by a van cafe tire carrier, gather the wheels are 15 or 16 inch with slightly larger tires, hence the need for the carrier. Have one on my syncro. The rust in front of the wheel well is weird and could be ugly. The underside looked pretty decent from a fellow dweller of the north.

[4Gears4Tires]

I can't believe how clean the drivetrain looks. That is really impressive. Only the drain plug leaks and a thicker better washer will fix that. Honestly, if everyone else checked out I think I would be sold on that alone. That looks like a 10 year old cars condition, not 30.

The rust could go a lot of ways, but I think if you are comfortable with pulling the windows, replacing the seals, sanding, spot painting those areas, it won't be a big deal. The spot on the fender does not look like it has gone through either, so that really simplifies things.
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'87 Syncro
Ferric Oxyhydroxide Superleggera Edition