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Jbj727
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Joined: September 30, 2019
Posts: 13
Location: Florida
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 Posted: Mon Feb 24, 2020 4:37 am Post subject: Ethanol free gas? |
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I tried looking with the search section and nothing came up. I use this in my 18 Beetle for reasons of avoiding carbon build up due to the GDI engine. I have heard that the ethenol gas eats at the gas lines that the older VW have. True or false? I know that the old fabric wrapped ones didn't like it just want to know if it is the truth.
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Abscate
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Joined: October 05, 2014
Posts: 22641
Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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| Posted: Mon Feb 24, 2020 5:14 am Post subject: Re: Ethenal free gas?? |
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You should be replacing anything original in the gas lines regardless of condition and you should use a modern fuel line Rated for ethanol containing gas.
Most of what’s written about ethanol gas is crap.
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hazetguy
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Joined: April 06, 2001
Posts: 10773
Location: iT StiNgeD iTseLf tO dEAd
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| Posted: Mon Feb 24, 2020 6:27 am Post subject: Re: Ethenal free gas?? |
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| Jbj727 wrote: |
| I tried looking with the search section and nothing came up. |
spelling ethanol correctly might help with the search results, as this topic has been beat to death more often than 'what tires are good for my bus?'.
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HarryFD
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Joined: February 24, 2012
Posts: 751
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Mon Feb 24, 2020 8:58 pm Post subject: Re: Ethenal free gas?? |
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| Jbj727 wrote: |
I tried looking with the search section and nothing came up. I use this in my 18 Beetle for reasons of avoiding carbon build up due to the GDI engine. I have heard that the ethenol gas eats at the gas lines that the older VW have. True or false? I know that the old fabric wrapped ones didn't like it just want to know if it is the truth.
Thanks |
FWIW, ethanol free fuel does nothing to prevent carbon buildup in the secondary air injection system. It does help to empty your wallet faster.
For newer cars with stainless steel fuel system components and proper rubber parts, there is no issue using E10.
For older cars (pre-2000), there are issues with ethanol containing fuels. These include:
-Deterioration of rubber parts which are incompatible with ethanol; and
-Corrosion of mild steel fuel system components due to excess moisture that gets attracted into the ethanol containing fuel
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Wildthings
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Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50337
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| Posted: Mon Feb 24, 2020 10:59 pm Post subject: Re: Ethenal free gas?? |
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| Assuming you have the correct fuel lines, if you are burning through a tank of gas at least every two weeks, you will likely have little or no problems with ethanol laced fuel, but if it takes you a month or more to use a tank of fuel, you may well have some difficulties because of the fuel aging. |
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airschooled
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Joined: April 04, 2012
Posts: 12721
Location: on a bike ride somewhere
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| Posted: Mon Feb 24, 2020 11:08 pm Post subject: Re: Ethenal free gas?? |
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There are at least five manufacturers of braided 5mm fuel line on the market right now.
One of them is from the VW factory in Brasil, where they don't shy away from corn-fuel.
Robbie
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Whaanga
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Location: Rochester, NY
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Wildthings
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Joined: March 13, 2005
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| Posted: Tue Feb 25, 2020 8:30 am Post subject: Re: Ethenal free gas?? |
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I see nothing on that hose or in the ad that would imply that this hose was suitable for use with ethanol laced fuels. Since the low pressure Gates 30r14 hose is rated for ethanol use as are all 30r9 rated hoses then I see no reason to continue the search for some other hose based solely on aesthetics.
As far as I am concerned having both 30r14 and 30r9 hose readily available and at a decent price has solved one of my longest running problems/complaints with automotive products. Yes there are metric equivalents if you know what to look for. |
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airschooled
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| Posted: Tue Feb 25, 2020 9:23 am Post subject: Re: Ethenal free gas?? |
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No, that’s the same crap that Wolfsburg et. al. are selling as “German” which isn’t a brand name.... The VW/Audi hose is black, not dark grey like the bum braided line, and has a clearly visible VW/Audi logo alongside the size markings in WHITE text, not orange. I’ve only seen it for sale at a few select mom and pop shops, never online.
Speculating wildly here, but I don’t think it’s JUST ethanol that kills the crap hose; I think heat and over-stretching have a lot to do with it too.
Robbie
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Wildthings
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Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50337
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| Posted: Tue Feb 25, 2020 9:59 am Post subject: Re: Ethenal free gas?? |
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| asiab3 wrote: |
No, that’s the same crap that Wolfsburg et. al. are selling as “German” which isn’t a brand name.... The VW/Audi hose is black, not dark grey like the bum braided line, and has a clearly visible VW/Audi logo alongside the size markings in WHITE text, not orange. I’ve only seen it for sale at a few select mom and pop shops, never online.
Speculating wildly here, but I don’t think it’s JUST ethanol that kills the crap hose; I think heat and over-stretching have a lot to do with it too.
Robbie |
Cheap hose has been failing for decades. On my old carbureted rigs I used to only let it go for two years or so before replacing it. Gates 30r14 is a blessing compared with the hoses pushed by autoparts for decades. When I first started replacing hoses on FI'd rigs 20'ish years ago, the FI rated hose from my local NAPA cost me $11 a foot, whereas today I can come up with suitable 30r14 or 30r9 hose for $2-3 per foot. |
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21512
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Tue Feb 25, 2020 10:14 am Post subject: Re: Ethenal free gas?? |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| asiab3 wrote: |
No, that’s the same crap that Wolfsburg et. al. are selling as “German” which isn’t a brand name.... The VW/Audi hose is black, not dark grey like the bum braided line, and has a clearly visible VW/Audi logo alongside the size markings in WHITE text, not orange. I’ve only seen it for sale at a few select mom and pop shops, never online.
Speculating wildly here, but I don’t think it’s JUST ethanol that kills the crap hose; I think heat and over-stretching have a lot to do with it too.
Robbie |
Cheap hose has been failing for decades. On my old carbureted rigs I used to only let it go for two years or so before replacing it. Gates 30r14 is a blessing compared with the hoses pushed by autoparts for decades. When I first started replacing hoses on FI'd rigs 20'ish years ago, the FI rated hose from my local NAPA cost me $11 a foot, whereas today I can come up with suitable 30r14 or 30r9 hose for $2-3 per foot. |
Yes....it REALLY has been failing for longer than we have been talking about it here in the forums.
It would probably be more accurate to say the lifespan has been getting shorter and shorter.
Back through 80's, through the 90's and into the early 2000's when I was driving my ACVW's daily....and averaging 50-70k miles per year.....in the early through mid 80's I could get four years on a fuel line set and about 2.5 years n a heater fuel line set.
By about 1987 I had to replace them every two years like clockwork. Not that they were bursting or getting hard and cracked along their entire length....but they were getting hard at the clam areas and I was noticing more splits between the plies and bulges.
It went this way through about the early 90's. Then while the lifespan did not change per-se....I noticed real inconsistencies starting. Some line brands and part numbers worked as normal (but still no more than 2.5 years)...others got "gooey" right away even when listed for injection. This was back in the MTBE days....and also they were changing additive packages left and right in different regions.
All of this accelerated when MTBE was changed to ethanol.
So its not JUST ethanol...but the current blends are the worst.
By the way...there sis very little metal fuel line in modern cars. Most f it is NOT stainless steel. They only use hard lines through certain areas. Anywhere from 50% to 90% of fuel lines within modern vehicles are Nylon. Ethanol does not touch Nylon....neither does diesel or kerosene. Ray |
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Whaanga
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Joined: May 07, 2016
Posts: 625
Location: Rochester, NY
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| Posted: Tue Feb 25, 2020 8:18 pm Post subject: Re: Ethanol free gas? |
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It seems so odd that an item as important as a high quality fuel hose is so hard to find.
I use Gates Barricade hose on my single Weber but I’m prepping to install dual Solex’s and know I’ll need new fuel lines at the proper dimension.
If anyone knows where to find the real stuff mentioned by Robbie, I would be very grateful.
Thanks,
Jeff
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Abscate
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Joined: October 05, 2014
Posts: 22641
Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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| Posted: Wed Feb 26, 2020 4:44 am Post subject: Re: Ethanol free gas? |
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| Whaanga wrote: |
It seems so odd that an item as important as a high quality fuel hose is so hard to find.
I use Gates Barricade hose on my single Weber but I’m prepping to install dual Solex’s and know I’ll need new fuel lines at the proper dimension.
If anyone knows where to find the real stuff mentioned by Robbie, I would be very grateful.
Thanks,
Jeff |
Your fuel system is relatively low pressure so you don’t get the firebombs that you get with fuel injected cars. Stick with Gates, situational awareness, aka smell , and a twice year deep inspection and enjoy the music.
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deezal
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Posts: 138
Location: pike county
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| Posted: Wed Feb 26, 2020 7:22 am Post subject: Re: Ethanol free gas? |
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I had used this brand (Braided Fuel/Vacuum Hose (11.0MM OD X 7.0MM ID, 1 Meter) CRP N203571).
The owner complained about the smell of fuel about one year later. We discovered most of the fuel hose was weeping/wet. We replaced with the gates 30r9 I believe.
Les |
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21512
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Wed Feb 26, 2020 8:16 am Post subject: Re: Ethenal free gas?? |
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| asiab3 wrote: |
No, that’s the same crap that Wolfsburg et. al. are selling as “German” which isn’t a brand name.... The VW/Audi hose is black, not dark grey like the bum braided line, and has a clearly visible VW/Audi logo alongside the size markings in WHITE text, not orange. I’ve only seen it for sale at a few select mom and pop shops, never online.
Speculating wildly here, but I don’t think it’s JUST ethanol that kills the crap hose; I think heat and over-stretching have a lot to do with it too.
Robbie |
Yes....agree....its more than just ethanol and probably only a little to do with stretching and other mechanical action.
Its a compounding problem versus a mechanical layering problem. I am finding it in just as many places in other industry segments with rubber, plastics and adhesives......as the chemicals we use with these materials become more complex blends.
SGKent and Wildthings and others have been speaking about the vapor barrier characteristics of fuel lines for a while now.
I would not go back as far as the 1920's when gasoline was REALLY simple....but the gist is that modern gasoline if you trust a Google answer has about 150 ingredients.
The problem is not even close to being "just" ethanol. But.....as ethanol is added a lot of the other consituent ingredients and/or their quantities.....had to be adjusted as well in order to make it work.
Aside from the new formulation issues for some of the more important synthetic rubbers that are out there that I keep speaking about (yes....even if they are using the right rubber types.....there is some question regarding their current quality).......there is the simple fact that all of the rubber types have specific ranges of chemicals they can withstand as well as what mechanical conditions (heat, pressure, UV, ozone etc.) they can stand.
Each rubber has a "burn through" time rating for chemicals that they have issues with. No two burn through times will be the same for different rubbers.
So the flexible rubber fuel lines....have had to become much more complex just in their type and number of plies. And if you look at whats in even the best like Gates Barricade......and look up each rubber.....not one of them is 100% or even 50% to all of the possible ingredients in modern motor fuel....and this is even before we start multiplying the effects of mechanical action like temperature, pressure, ozone, uv etc.
This is why the first point of failure you usually see....is fuel getting into the spaces between plies.
There just is no "rubber"....synthetic or natural.....that works with all of the ingredients in modern gasoline.
Just as a very quick example of the HUGE differences in rubber......we all know what Viton is. Its bad ass flourocarbon based rubber. There is a whole family of it with at least four main types.
We have been loving it for fuel system seals like injector seals....oil seals etc.....for decades. Very hydrocarbon resistant....very high temperature.
Guess what.....simple DOT 3, 4 and 5 brake fluid......literally dissolve Viton's. And viton does not do well with UV exposure.
Flip the coin over.....and EPDM.....is fantastic with brake fluid, glycol ethers, many esters .....and lives 40 years or more in UV.......but hydrocarbons and VOC's.....just dissolve it.
Rubbers can be that diametrically opposed in capability.
These reasons are why the vast majority of modern gasoline fuel lines have gone to nylon. Ray |
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Wildthings
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Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50337
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| Posted: Wed Feb 26, 2020 10:13 am Post subject: Re: Ethanol free gas? |
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| There are regional differences in fuel that cause differences in its behavior. I have lived most of my adult life in Oregon but have been spending the winters in Arizona for most of the last decade. I have frequently had problems with standard pump gas in Oregon, jets clogging, fuel going sour in the tank, and problems with fuel boiling off in the carb after shut down thus leading to hot restart problems. Comparatively in Arizona the problems have been minimal, and an annual or even biennial dose of FI cleaner keeps my Arizona engines running well. |
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Brian
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Joined: May 28, 2012
Posts: 8340
Location: Oceanside
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| Posted: Wed Feb 26, 2020 11:16 am Post subject: Re: Ethanol free gas? |
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| Abscate wrote: |
| a twice year deep inspection and enjoy the music. |
Pump your favorite tunes in the garage, crack open a cold one and inspect your shit. It takes like 5 minutes to clamp off your fuel tank and pull your lines to see how they're doing. It also takes about 5 minutes to watch your bus burn to the ground and destroy all of your hopes and dreams.
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AlmostHeavenWV_VW 
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Whaanga
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| Posted: Wed Feb 26, 2020 8:35 pm Post subject: Re: Ethanol free gas? |
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Thank You for this very helpful information. And I’m curious, why do we not like braided hose?
Jeff
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Wildthings
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| Posted: Wed Feb 26, 2020 9:02 pm Post subject: Re: Ethanol free gas? |
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| Whaanga wrote: |
Thank You for this very helpful information. And I’m curious, why do we not like braided hose?
Jeff |
For one the cover hides cracks in the rubber. When I bought my T-181 Thing ten'ish years ago it had cloth covered vacuum lines that looked really nice. In essence though the lines were linear sieves which were causing the engine to run like crap. |
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