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What about 1602 74x83mm 40 hp?
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Busted-bolt
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2020 6:49 am    Post subject: What about 1602 74x83mm 40 hp? Reply with quote

You see a BUNCH of 25-36 hp builds but just crickets when concerning a real 40 hp build. Im planing on doing a 74 mm crank with 83's . Just wondering how well 40 hp narrowed rods play with this arrangement. I want the 40 rods because any other rods are a lot longer and the tin won't fit any more. It seems funny to me that so many aftermarket parts are avalable for the fuzed gen. stand engines 25-36.I think that it would be awsome if someone would make a set of 40 hp "H" beams ,standard length ,narrowed to fit later crank and with a 20 mm pin. The 40 hp rods are essential to keep the aesthetics a real 40 vintage build.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2020 12:54 pm    Post subject: Re: What about 1602 74x83mm 40 hp? Reply with quote

If you get a 69mm crank have the rod jounanls grinded offset to 36hp journals and it will give you a 74mm crank and than you can use the aapistons 36hp h beam journals ...your machine shop should know how to offset the crank journals to achieve the 74mm size with 36hp jounal size.... I emailed aapiston in the past and asked them about if they were gonna make h beam 40hp rods and from my email they said yes but don't know why they haven't got done... well I let time past " months "and not seen the 40hp h beam rods on there site so I emailed them again and asked and I was told no they never had plans to make any and I told him about my old email and sent it to them and it said well this coworker who emailed me back said you guys were and they emailed me .. if you make a big order of them we can get them ..but I told them well then if I'm gonna be the only buyer I want my name on them not yours but i never got a reply ...so I left it as is .... but they wanted me to buy a big bundle which was expensive ..... maybe if someone cashes a big check we than can see 40hp h beam rods around ....
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2020 4:21 pm    Post subject: Re: What about 1602 74x83mm 40 hp? Reply with quote

no one really cares to produce performance parts that are specifically 40hp because a 40hp looks practically identical to a 1600 when dressed accordingly, but is weaker and costs more for the same output.


do you have a numbers matching engine you want to use? Otherwise you could use a 40hp generator stand and a 40hp shroud to make a later engine look nearly identical but have a lot more performance for less money.
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Busted-bolt
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2020 5:54 pm    Post subject: Re: What about 1602 74x83mm 40 hp? Reply with quote

I like the idea of the modified 69 to make a 74 and the rods will be a drop in with smaller journals. The old small block chevy would spin a lot faster with the small journals. Im working with the forty horse "and yes numbers matching" with the narow cylinder spacing,and i want a vintage speed look and function thats more than skin deep.An hay it hasn't been done that often and i'd like to try something different. I'm shoulder deep into a build that uses extensive Porsche-fication ,down to the necked down cylinder studs. I've been frequenting the 356 ,912 stuff and finding out how to apply as much as possible to modify a vw to get some what close to the Porsche original design.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2020 9:24 pm    Post subject: Re: What about 1602 74x83mm 40 hp? Reply with quote

If you use the 69mm crank look for the 1500cc crank ...it will fit the vintage style your going for but you can use the 1600cc 69mm crank also but it's a little newer lol but it will still work ... 1600 crank has slots in the journals for the oiling 1500cc cranks don't it just has straight holes.. to me ill get a 1500cc crank but some have there preference in cranks so it's really up to you ....just my 2 cents
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Busted-bolt
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2020 7:44 pm    Post subject: Re: What about 1602 74x83mm 40 hp? Reply with quote

That is the million dollar ,what crank to use as a "core" to make said crank. I was thinking a forged chromoly counter-weighted sub straight. Im just a bit weary of a normal cast steel because of sub straight graining problem with ought re- tempering. I may be wrong by going with a harder sub straight, that might cause more problems. So if anybody in the know please chime in .
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2020 10:30 am    Post subject: Re: What about 1602 74x83mm 40 hp? Reply with quote

'65 Ghia, original 40HP engine case, 69mm counter weighted DPR crank, 8 dowel 200mm 6V flywheel, original engine's 40HP rods (big end narrowed), used CIMA 40HP pistons with AA barrels, EURO 1200 heads (dual port), Engle 100 cam (case cut for bearings), Kadrons (no balance tube, no breather hose), Gene Berg linkage, 010 distributor and dog house cooler. Set up with 8.5 to 1 compression. Setting up the valve train with Bugpack lightweight lifters, CB Perf solid shaft rocker shafts, custom clearanced VW rockers and Porsche adjusters, with custom length alloy pushrods. I have a pair of Weber 40s that will go on later this year with medium height intakes that will clear the deck lid springs. Completely balanced. I now have 1074 miles on it.

If I were to do anything differently, I would use a 69mm NON-counter weighted crank and use new pistons. Clearing the counterweights on the crank for the pistons was a ton of work and not sure how much I weakened them in the long haul. The counter weighted crank is quite a bit heavier and I just don't spend any time much above 4800 rpm to justify it being in there at all. Maybe getting the Webers back on there will change my mind, but I doubt it. I used it because I had it handy. Lessons learned and I can now easily fix all of it.

I had a 74mm crank, but I used it in my Type 3 engine build. I was seriously tempted to use it in this engine.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 16, 2020 8:37 pm    Post subject: Re: What about 1602 74x83mm 40 hp? Reply with quote

The built up 40 horse is something to be coveted for sure. It resembles a lot of technology and german engineering at its finest"even though the source stock of materials used sometimes prohibited fruition of the ideas" .Early 40 hp crankshafts are a good "bad" example. But we are beyond that now due to the recent availability of quality parts .Theres just something about the narrow fan housing and the stale air tin that is unique to its self and others who appreciate it. Nice fresh air 40 build by the way Wink
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2020 6:38 am    Post subject: Re: What about 1602 74x83mm 40 hp? Reply with quote

My engine also has the doghouse oil cooler modification, with the pressed in top nut. I still need to install a modified clutch lever on the transmission to finish the job.

As for width, it's the same as a regular 40HP. I had to modify and weld quite a bit to make a pair of aftermarket dual port top tins work in there, but after the powder coating it all looks great.

One other thing I will do is take apart the original mechanical fuel pump and shift the top one or two notches clock-wise. I want to move the fuel pressure regulator away from the top of the distributor--just in case it ever starts leaking! I'll modify the fuel rails (metal brake line) to place it just to the right of the main carb linkage and as far from the generator as I can get it.

Tons of details, but the goal was to keep the original numbers case in there, install a set of dual carbs, and not have to remove the decklid springs. I did find a set of Okrasa 40HP heads, but they need a bunch of work and I don't have any of the rest of the parts right now to make it happen. Maybe someday.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2020 8:13 pm    Post subject: Re: What about 1602 74x83mm 40 hp? Reply with quote

Im deep in to my next build 83x74 in a forty horse with no shims. A stock manifold will work. I'm going for what the engineers who worked for Lycoming and Continental were working toward. The valves were rather small compared to displacement and the carburetor on a Lycoming O-540 is smaller than an early rabbit 1.5L.. By the way that 540 was 540 cubic inches,so my engine being intended for use in a bus should be perfect! Wink
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2020 8:51 pm    Post subject: Re: What about 1602 74x83mm 40 hp? Reply with quote

Oh yeah Gregson1 What are those manifolds you used on the dual kadron K/G? They are pretty sweet! Smile And yeah I'm using a 7140 counter weighted crank in my build with AA 83 mm big bore P/C . The skirts were counter cut to clear only on the pin side leaving the "tilt" side of skirt intact.I did however run in to problems on the #3 case land and it had to be filled for proper clearance of the skirts.I did not run in to any problems with the crank to piston clearence how ever. I debated on going a smaller bore stock 40 hp P/C s but the tilting part of the skirt was much longer than the more modern AA 83s that I had and it would have affected the strength of the piston when used with a 74mm crank.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2020 6:32 am    Post subject: Re: What about 1602 74x83mm 40 hp? Reply with quote

Busted-bolt wrote:
That is the million dollar ,what crank to use as a "core" to make said crank...


If you are ready to plunk down your money, give Jose at DPR a call (714) 979-7441. He's one of the few guys I know that will still entertain oddball VW cranks like this, and will back up words with hardware shipped out. He can tell you what will hold up, what won't, from real world experience. He's in Santa Ana CA though, costs are high, don't expect a $150 crank.

I've been to his shop, Jose is 'the real deal', he still does submerged arc welding, can add counterweights, normalize and heat treat, straighten, and balance. He even built a couple hybrid flywheels for me, 200mm Type 1 outer with 36hp/356 Porsche center hub, 8 doweled, for a 36hp build of mine. No one else wanted anything to do with the project.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2020 6:48 am    Post subject: Re: What about 1602 74x83mm 40 hp? Reply with quote

[email protected] wrote:
If you get a 69mm crank have the rod jounanls grinded offset to 36hp journals and it will give you a 74mm crank and than you can use the aapistons 36hp h beam journals ...your machine shop should know how to offset the crank journals to achieve the 74mm size with 36hp jounal size.... I emailed aapiston in the past and asked them about if they were gonna make h beam 40hp rods and from my email they said yes but don't know why they haven't got done... well I let time past " months "and not seen the 40hp h beam rods on there site so I emailed them again and asked and I was told no they never had plans to make any and I told him about my old email and sent it to them and it said well this coworker who emailed me back said you guys were and they emailed me .. if you make a big order of them we can get them ..but I told them well then if I'm gonna be the only buyer I want my name on them not yours but i never got a reply ...so I left it as is .... but they wanted me to buy a big bundle which was expensive ..... maybe if someone cashes a big check we than can see 40hp h beam rods around ....


I'm eager to try this. I need a good used OG (forged) 69mm crank to start with, then a second set of AA 36hp H-beam rods. I already have a set of those rods going in my Okrasa 36 build. The whole process is explained really well in the "How To Hotrod" Fisher book, but it makes sense when you see that the standard, unground 1600 rod journal is 2.164" while the 36hp has 1.968 if standard. The difference is .196" which is roughly 5mm, which is how much the stroke will lengthen when offset grinding the 40hp rod journal.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2020 7:08 am    Post subject: Re: What about 1602 74x83mm 40 hp? Reply with quote

TomSimon wrote:
Busted-bolt wrote:
That is the million dollar ,what crank to use as a "core" to make said crank...


If you are ready to plunk down your money, give Jose at DPR a call (714) 979-7441. He's one of the few guys I know that will still entertain oddball VW cranks like this, and will back up words with hardware shipped out. He can tell you what will hold up, what won't, from real world experience. He's in Santa Ana CA though, costs are high, don't expect a $150 crank.

I've been to his shop, Jose is 'the real deal', he still does submerged arc welding, can add counterweights, normalize and heat treat, straighten, and balance. He even built a couple hybrid flywheels for me, 200mm Type 1 outer with 36hp/356 Porsche center hub, 8 doweled, for a 36hp build of mine. No one else wanted anything to do with the project.


Tom I see that AA now has a 200mm 36hp/356/912 8 doweled flywheel. What do you think of those?
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2020 1:06 pm    Post subject: Re: What about 1602 74x83mm 40 hp? Reply with quote

fl59bug wrote:

Tom I see that AA now has a 200mm 36hp/356/912 8 doweled flywheel. What do you think of those?


I'm impressed that AA this jumped on this, and a lot of other very limited usage parts for 36hp, 356 Porsche

I've not seen one, so have no experience.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 15, 2020 7:08 pm    Post subject: Re: What about 1602 74x83mm 40 hp? Reply with quote

Quote:
200mm 6V flywheel
Busted- I see this as the most difficult part to source, unless your car already has a 12 V system with a starter that meshes with your intended flywheel.

gregson- did you mean dual-port Euro 1300 heads? I don't think any 1200 engine (German or Mexican built) had anything but single-port heads. Impressive engine build!
Quote:
EURO 1200 heads (dual port)
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2020 5:52 am    Post subject: Re: What about 1602 74x83mm 40 hp? Reply with quote

Busted-bolt wrote:
Oh yeah Gregson1 What are those manifolds you used on the dual kadron K/G? They are pretty sweet!...


I'd sure like to know this too - that is a sweet hot rod 40 horse Gregson1 has.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2020 7:27 am    Post subject: Re: What about 1602 74x83mm 40 hp? Reply with quote

fl59, my guess is that gregson has a set of European-market 1300 dual-port heads that started as of the 1971 model year on Beetles. Such engines were market-specific alternatives to the 1600 DP due to engine displacement taxing, insurance classifications, etc. Never officially sold here in the USA, but heads made their way over sometimes in batch used engines shipped from Europe by large engine rebuilders in the '80's and '90's. Those 1300 DP have the same, smaller cylinder opening to fit 40 hp big bore (BB) cylinders without any machining. I'd imagine that rebuildable DP 1300 heads are plentiful and cheap in England.

So with the BB 40 hp cylinders fitting right into those heads, any DP intake manifold would also be a bolt-on. On his engine he has DP Kadron manifolds. The only modification might be to shorten the carb linkage cross-bar because the 40 hp engine is narrower than a 1300 and later.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2020 9:40 am    Post subject: Re: What about 1602 74x83mm 40 hp? Reply with quote

Rome wrote:
fl59, my guess is that gregson has a set of European-market 1300 dual-port heads that started as of the 1971 model year on Beetles. Such engines were market-specific alternatives to the 1600 DP due to engine displacement taxing, insurance classifications, etc. Never officially sold here in the USA, but heads made their way over sometimes in batch used engines shipped from Europe by large engine rebuilders in the '80's and '90's. Those 1300 DP have the same, smaller cylinder opening to fit 40 hp big bore (BB) cylinders without any machining. I'd imagine that rebuildable DP 1300 heads are plentiful and cheap in England.

So with the BB 40 hp cylinders fitting right into those heads, any DP intake manifold would also be a bolt-on. On his engine he has DP Kadron manifolds. The only modification might be to shorten the carb linkage cross-bar because the 40 hp engine is narrower than a 1300 and later.


Thanks Rome, makes me wonder if the availability of 1300 heads "might" be a factor in the number of 40 horse hot rod engines I see overseas via those here in the states. Guess I'll just stick with modifying 36-ers for now!
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2022 7:15 am    Post subject: Re: What about 1602 74x83mm 40 hp? Reply with quote

I guess this belongs here . My 1602 . It's almost done ! Lol
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