Dad's Denzel engine, what have I got here? Porsche crank?

[54semaphore]

Hi everyone, I've got dad's old engine here and could use some help figuring out what I've got since it's been under the trainboard at the parent's for about 50 years and now I've dusted it off. Here's what I have pieced together from memory or family members:

In about 1963 he bought "the Denzel" from his friend Dave and installed it in the '54 oval he was driving that mom had gotten in one of VW's programs where you pick up your new car at the factory. Since he had bought mom a new '61 we were then a 2 Bug family until we wouldn't fit anymore and in '66 he bought a bigger car, pulled the Denzel and sold the '54. Anyway, he loved that engine and it served a few more years duty in the '61 until it developed a gland nut oil leak and was removed from service in 1969 or '70.

I suspect his friend Jim Eichorn originally built dad's Denzel. Jim was a local Denver machinist who raced a Denzel powered, Devin body car at regional road race tracks like CDR and dad would sometimes pit for him. Jim shared shop space with Harvey Stuska who built Stuska Dynomometers. I remember being taken to their shop as a very small child and all I remember is that I liked the smell! (Portent of Automotive Doom!)

Here's what I found after cleaning it up a little:
- Case stamped 1684592, 36hp, right? Year?
- Bore: 77mm
- Stroke: about 69.5mm, so about 1295cc displacement
Dad always said it had a Porsche crank, I think I've got the right photos to
tell...
- Combustion chambers show approx. normal combustion
- Mallory distributor # YL-541-HP

What can you guys tell me? Whether I keep it or not, the more I know the better. Thanks in advance! Here come the photos.

Here it is mocked up with heads, intake, carbs, fuel and throttle

The rest of the photos:

That is an extra pair of carbs and bell crank. Also a pair of intake ram tubes that would definitely not fit a Type1. Would the ram tubes have been a Denzel product?

[[email protected]]

My dream engine right there ..can I have it please 😢

[Busted-bolt]

That's is one insane vintage speed engine, Thanks for the picts of this rare masterpiece!
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Vw collection 60 combi ,61 panel ,62 deluxe micro,82 diesel Westfalia,88 Vanagon synchro,98 Jetta tdi,11 Jetta tdi mt ,11 Jetta tdi dsg.
I do all my own work,body,engine and transmission.

[EverettB]

Nice! This is awesome that it has been kept around this long.
You probably know this but Denzels are worth $$$$$

Sorry I can't answer any of the questions except for:

[PeteSC]

WOW.

Thanks for sharing. I don't have much to offer, other than I'd love to own it.

My father-in-law was into trains and had a train board; when we moved it after his passing the only thing under it was more train stuff. Dammit.

[Bengt H]

Nice piece of engine
I dont think its a Porsche crank, dont think they made 69,5 mm stroke. I think it could be an Okrasa crank. Rods sems to be regular 36 hp.
Good luck with the engine

[54semaphore]

Ok, so far we have:

- Denzel heads and manifolds
- 1957 36hp
- Okrasa crank (Bengt H, another member PMed me agreeing with your crank ID)
- VW rods

Thanks everyone!

[Danwvw]

Interesting Heads like a cross between 25-36 horse and Porsche 356 heads. Looks like it uses Porsche 356 manifolds and Solex PBIC-32 which were on the 1600 Porsche engine through 56!
_________________
1960 Beetle And 1679cc DP W-100 & Dual Zeniths!

[earthquake]

Cool motor!
Did you get any exhaust with it?

eQ
_________________
74 CLASS 11 LOOK-A-LIKE
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79 INTERNATIONAL SCOUT II
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Link to Kelly J. Nolte 3/20/53 - 11/6/08
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[54semaphore]

Thanks!
Sadly, there was no exhaust and I don’t remember any floating around the garage either.

[Danwvw]

Looks like standard Porsche 356 912 Exhaust system head to exhaust flanges.
_________________
1960 Beetle And 1679cc DP W-100 & Dual Zeniths!

[54semaphore]

Thanks, that is a helpful suggestion!
Maybe someone else can confirm that Porsche/Denzel exhaust flange equivalence.

[OMT]

Hello 54semaphore,
Porsche 356 exhaust flanges will not work.
Flanges are available from Speedwell USA.
Best Regards,
Al

[Big_E_Deluxe]

This engine is junk, when can I come pick it up?

First off, I would keep it because it was your Dads. Especially if you're in to VW's. Second, because it's not likely you find another. And finally, they are super expensive and you'll be the only guy on your block with a Denzel.

Seems like your Dad knew then how special they are.....Sells car, not engine. Enjoy it!
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Erik

1958 VW Beetle - "Max": https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...highlight=
1959 VW Bus - "Hans" - Double Door Panel (sold): https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=746927
2014 Porsche 991.1 Carrera S

[slalombuggy]

Very Cool piece of history......but I wanna see the train board Marklin by any chance?

brad

[Braukuche]

Pretty sure Okrasa cranks were stamped as such.
I tore apart a vintage speed engine and found a 69.5. Crank that turned out to have an EMPI stamp.
The exhaust ports are too fat for Porsche, they are too square.
Super cool engine!
_________________
Go Reds! Smash state!

Retirement is here!
1956 Ghia
1959 SO-23 Westfalia
1960 double cab
1960 Baja Bug
1963 stretched double cab
1962 Golde sunroof Ghia
1963 356 B coupe
1963 Notchback
1967 21 window less rusty now

[vintage fiberglass]

any chance the denzel heads are for sale? I am willing to possible buy them.

[Robert Chambers]

I believe Mr Okrasa here on the Samba may be a good source for information on Denzel. Unfortunately most of the Vintage Speed engines and parts have been lost to history. Good luck with whatever you decide to do with this amazing Vintage Speed engine!
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'63 OG 117 Herbie Replica
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'63 OG 117

[TomSimon]

Awesome vintage performance find!

I know a little about Denzel heads, not as much as OMT Al, but some. They are a weird animal, very different by design than the 36hp vw head they replaced, used a bunch of proprietary 'denzel only' parts which drove up the price, which probably explains why they didn't sell many, compared to Okrasa 36hp heads.

I've had the good fortune to examine several vintage performance heads side by side, stock 36hp, Okrasa, Denzel, then a performance 1600 style head.

I've also looked over Hemi chamber 356 heads, which have a few things that look like Denzel, but none of the Porsche parts interchange. Denzel incorporated a wedge chamber, 356 is hemispherical, completely different design philosophies.

When you look at the Denzel head design, you can see they really started from a clean sheet of paper, understanding the several design limitation of the 36hp vw, and made a slick performance dual port kit that took advantage of the overhead valves and the best understanding of modern engine design.

Looking at a Denzel head, it's as though the designers were far ahead of their time. They closely resemble a more modern performance T1 head. An Okrasa head by contrast, has dual ports going for it, but not much other improvement over the heads they replaced. It seems Okrasa designed around the existing vw stuff, to keep the retail cost down, but added dual ports and dual carbs, definitely an improvement, but left a lot on the table. Denzel took a much different approach.

The 36hp vw head has valves in line with the bore, straight. So does Okrasa. Denzel valves are angled, about 5degrees from memory, maybe more, for improved intake and exhaust port flow, helping to better flow air into the bore, away from the cylinder wall restrictions. This angle means Denzel heads require their own proprietary rocker arms, pushrods, and lifters, intake manifolds and exhaust flange and stub-pipes too, so it all works in a 36hp case. An Okrasa conversion on the otherhand, re-uses all the vw parts except the intake manifolds.

The intake runners are also improved. Stock 36hp is split, and makes all these abrupt turns. Okrasa isn't much better, other than dual ports, moving the split further up the runner, inside the head the ports still take an abrupt 90 turn. Denzel intake ports make a nice lazy turn, thanks to a better valve 'pocket', angled valves and a cast manifold that continues the lazy curve. All things that we know today, make a better flowing intake tract.

The combustion chamber design is another prime example of Denzel evolution in design. Stock 36hp vw and Okrasa both have this antique open chamber design. Never considered 'performance' and is only slightly better than an ole flathead. On the other hand Denzel, later stock vw T1, and every T1 performance/race heads all capitalize on 1960's and 70's state of the art wedge combustion chamber design, that incorporate 'quench pads', proven to increase combustion efficiency. 36hp vw and Okrasa chambers are more 'state of the Ark' as in Noah's Ark, but that's what they had, and they reportedly ran good enough on awful fuel, so there's that.
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[Braukuche]

Nice write up on the Denzel v Okrasa differences.
_________________
Go Reds! Smash state!

Retirement is here!
1956 Ghia
1959 SO-23 Westfalia
1960 double cab
1960 Baja Bug
1963 stretched double cab
1962 Golde sunroof Ghia
1963 356 B coupe
1963 Notchback
1967 21 window less rusty now