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So it starts now, the rebuild of our 63 rag, small updates
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rah253
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2020 3:30 am    Post subject: So it starts now, the rebuild of our 63 rag, small updates Reply with quote

After purchasing my first ever air-cooled in 2018, with all the good intentions to put it together within a year, that of course did not happen, with a new home, life, other cars etc...

I posted here for the first time when i got the car and now i am posting to start the built (got the car non running and in pieces when i purchased it). The plan is to have it running by June 1st for a family event, so i am shooting for May 1st so i have time to address problems.

First was planning, inventory, then a list of parts needed, look at all the mechanical and electrical. Most of the electrical has been redone and routed outside of a few things, the car is now 12V converted and the inventory and parts is done. I decided to take a look at the 1600 that came with the car and here is what i found on one side(see pictures), what the hell.

I will be taking the heads apart to check the rings and everything else in the next few days, hopefully the engine is and should be salvageable.

Quick question for the group. for this 1600, single or double carbs and which ones? It is single carburetor right now but i am thinking on going dual. Anything else i should be looking at mechanically to make it healthier and perform better? My girlfriends brother is a big air-cooled guy but also a busy guy and i would like to hear more input anyways.

I will keep updating this thread and the build as it goes along. Both my sons have bugs as well, the oldest one has a 66 and the youngest has a 75 and they will be both landing a hand with this project!

Thanks for reading and looking forward to inputs and suggestions!

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Last edited by rah253 on Sat Apr 04, 2020 10:35 pm; edited 3 times in total
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Mark Evans Premium Member
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2020 5:54 am    Post subject: Re: so it starts now, the rebuild of our 63 rag Reply with quote

If this is the first time that you're trying to get it on the road, I'd go as stockish as possible, for now. Get it going, start working out the "bugs" in it, see what it really needs. You can always add the other goodies later.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2020 6:08 am    Post subject: Re: so it starts now, the rebuild of our 63 rag Reply with quote

WOW, thats a cool car. Very Happy It looked like your valve cover has water in the oil. If the bottom end is good and since you want to get in back on the road, it would be smart to invest in a top end refresh or rebuild.... remove heads and pistons/ cylinders, clean parts, maybe buy new rings, have machine work done on the heads if needed, etc. things look a little dusty but was it just from being exposed to the air? Do you know if any water or condensation got into the engine? If not then i think you would be fine if you just wiped down the dirt and removed any rust on the valve springs and retainers.

Here’s a good thread for choosing dual carbs. https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=572107
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2020 10:16 am    Post subject: Re: so it starts now, the rebuild of our 63 rag Reply with quote

I like the stance of the car. I want a '63 rag someday.

I have my ol' '59 hardtop for now, with a '63 rag clip hanging on the shop wall. I don't have the heart(guts?) to cut the roof on the '59!

Keep us updated - Ted
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2020 7:39 pm    Post subject: Re: so it starts now, the rebuild of our 63 rag Reply with quote

Hi!
The engine is a single port.
Dual carbs will work on a single port. But might prove to be a pain to tune.
I'm with Mark Evans on this. Make it run with the stock goodies.
A well tuned single port is a blast to drive. For what it is.
Plus they are just about bulletproof.

Adding performance parts on an unknown condition engine is asking for trouble down the road.
It would be a better idea to save money for a future build on a dual port platform. With a dual relief case.

If you haven't already, drain the oil and see if it is contaminated with water.
The amount of water visible in your pics indicates that there likely is water in the crankcase. Remove the sump plate and examine the opening of the case for corrosion.

Make the car safe first. Then have fun with it!

Good Luck.
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rah253
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2020 8:02 pm    Post subject: Re: so it starts now, the rebuild of our 63 rag Reply with quote

Mark Evans wrote:
If this is the first time that you're trying to get it on the road, I'd go as stockish as possible, for now. Get it going, start working out the "bugs" in it, see what it really needs. You can always add the other goodies later.


Hey Mark, thank for the input. After doing some thinking and reading your replies, i think it is probably wise to go that route for sure, keep it stock and just make it run. I'll be taking the heads apart next week and go from there.

I went through the pans and despite the fact that i have new pans and heater channels that came with the car, the stock ones are in good condition with no rust, unlike the heater channels, which for now and since it wont be a daily driver will stay as is. i do have to source a luggage shelf for it.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2020 8:05 pm    Post subject: Re: so it starts now, the rebuild of our 63 rag Reply with quote

Chickensoup wrote:
WOW, thats a cool car. Very Happy It looked like your valve cover has water in the oil. If the bottom end is good and since you want to get in back on the road, it would be smart to invest in a top end refresh or rebuild.... remove heads and pistons/ cylinders, clean parts, maybe buy new rings, have machine work done on the heads if needed, etc. things look a little dusty but was it just from being exposed to the air? Do you know if any water or condensation got into the engine? If not then i think you would be fine if you just wiped down the dirt and removed any rust on the valve springs and retainers.

Here’s a good thread for choosing dual carbs. https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=572107


Hey thanks man, yeah i love the car, cant wait to get it going! I will be taking the heads apart next week and going trough it. At this point, mine as well get it rebuilt properly if it possibly needs new stuff once taken apart. Things are little dusty yes, that engine has been sitting in my garage since mid 2018. I had it covered but the previous owner i'm not sure on that... Thanks for the link!
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2020 8:08 pm    Post subject: Re: so it starts now, the rebuild of our 63 rag Reply with quote

fl59bug wrote:
I like the stance of the car. I want a '63 rag someday.

I have my ol' '59 hardtop for now, with a '63 rag clip hanging on the shop wall. I don't have the heart(guts?) to cut the roof on the '59!

Keep us updated - Ted


Hey thanks Ted, i appreciate that. Cutting the roof on the 59 would have me on edge lol, don't think i could do it, but it would be cool for sure!
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2020 8:17 pm    Post subject: Re: so it starts now, the rebuild of our 63 rag Reply with quote

67rustavenger wrote:
Hi!
The engine is a single port.
Dual carbs will work on a single port. But might prove to be a pain to tune.
I'm with Mark Evans on this. Make it run with the stock goodies.
A well tuned single port is a blast to drive. For what it is.
Plus they are just about bulletproof.

Adding performance parts on an unknown condition engine is asking for trouble down the road.
It would be a better idea to save money for a future build on a dual port platform. With a dual relief case.

If you haven't already, drain the oil and see if it is contaminated with water.
The amount of water visible in your pics indicates that there likely is water in the crankcase. Remove the sump plate and examine the opening of the case for corrosion.

Make the car safe first. Then have fun with it!

Good Luck.


Thanks for the reply! After reading you guys posts on here, i think i am going to side with you and Mark on that. There is plans for this car this summer with family and another major plan, so keeping it basic and getting it running without trying to add to it is the right idea. I already have my hands full getting it back on the road by May so let's keep it simple for sure.

As far as draining the oil, i will be doing that next week on my days off, draining and pulling the engine apart. i just got an engine stand this week so i will be placing it on the stand and start the process. Thanks for letting me know on the sump plate, i will be taking it all apart anyways due to the water find in the valve cover on that one side and just because of the unknown really. The motor was with the car, not in the car, so i don't know how long it was seating to start with and how it was sitting really.

Thanks again, i will keep the updates coming.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 29, 2020 10:11 pm    Post subject: Re: so it starts now, the rebuild of our 63 rag Reply with quote

A wise man would evaluate what he has on hand before tearing an engine down.

Does the crankshaft turn? If not then yea, it's a good idea to pull it apart and evaluate what needs replacement.
If the crank turns 360° smoothly. Chances are you might not need to tear it down.

The reason I'm saying this is. Because the rocker boxes look pretty clean. Despite the minor rust on the rockers and valve springs. Most of the time on a poorly maintained engine. The rocker boxes will have coke (burned oil film) on the head, rockers, valve springs...... This does not appear to be the case.

All this is, of course your choice on what action you choose to take.

Good Luck.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2020 8:20 am    Post subject: Re: So it starts now, the rebuild of our 63 rag Reply with quote

I also agree with first making sure the crankshaft rotates freely. Pull off the rocker shafts and pushrods. Keep each pushrod marked as per its location, so that they are inserted back into the engine at the original locations. The steel rounded ends wear into the components (lifters + rocker arm cups) over time and that wear should be maintained.

You can also fill the crankcase with diesel fuel, shake the engine a few times each day to slosh it around, then drain it after a week. Diesel is a mild solvent so that when its in contact with the sides and even the ceiling of the engine case, lots of dirt should come out. You still should run an initial "clean out" quantity of engine oil and drain it after the engine is warm, so that this oil circulates through the oil passages and the oil cooler. Thin oil such as 5W-20 is good for this. For the final fill, use 10W-30 oil.

You can clean up the rocker adjusting nuts, studs and spring retainers with a wire wheel bench grinder. Oil them when refitting.

I strongly recommend replacing the exhaust valves in both heads as a precaution. If you find that you can't remove the original valves because they only go down into the guide until the valve end (where the rocker adjuster touches it) is nearly flush with the guide end, don't force the valve through. Instead, push it back out and run a strip of emery cloth around the valve end so that any burrs or slight mushrooming of the tip is sanded down. By doing this you are saving your valve guides at least until after your family event this summer.

Clean and degrease the heads in the combustion chamber. Best to use a brass bristle brush in a drill (wear goggles) that does not dig into the aluminum head material.

Take the intake valves out while you're there (keep track of their head position) and if they look OK, lap them into the seats.

I would not trust a valve spring that has rust and pitting on it. Replace with a new, or used unrusted one. The rust eats away at the metal surface and slowly weakens the spring steel. The repeated compression and rebound of the spring during normal operation can cause a fatigue break right at the rust spot. I've seen this on an engine breakdown during a long road trip 20 years ago. We were able to perform a field fix to replace the spring with an unrusted used one.

With the heads off, check each piston and cylinder for rust flakes at the bottom of the cylinder. Clean out as well as possible with the cylinders in place, using shop rags. Just before fitting a head to one side, spray some engine oil around the perimeter of the pistons so that there's an initial bit of lube to the rings when you start up the engine.

Check your pushrod tubes for rust-through and replace as needed. New and used tubes need be pulled apart slightly so that they compress when the heads are tightened and seal against both ends (case and heads). Use the creamy white silicone seals, not the red ones in kits which can break with age.

Run an M8 x 1.25 die over each of the head's exhaust flange studs. They are usually nicked from previous tightening/removal attempts or have rust on them, and you want the threads to enable the fastening nuts to be run down hand tight before you tighten with a tool.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2020 8:50 am    Post subject: Re: So it starts now, the rebuild of our 63 rag Reply with quote

Congrats on the new acquisition
I too have a 63 ragtop that I had Planned to get running and drive while I fixed it up
This is what I looked Like when I got It home .
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


And 5 years later, this is how it was last weekend
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



Be careful, sometimes life happens and stuff gets pushed onto the back burner.
or , simple repairs have a way of snowballing into full blown pan-off restorations lol
So don't worry about missed self-imposed timelines, just stick with it and enjoy the build
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1968 Beetle
1970 Beetle
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2020 10:48 am    Post subject: Re: So it starts now, the rebuild of our 63 rag Reply with quote

I miss my '63 ragtop. Crying or Very sad
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mark tucker wrote:
I wouldent waste $ or thyme on building a small motor. build it big so it dosent have to work hard.remember it's only as fast as your foot alows it to be unless you build a small turd then it just stinks as it squishes up through your toes when you step on it.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 08, 2020 12:14 am    Post subject: Re: so it starts now, the rebuild of our 63 rag Reply with quote

67rustavenger wrote:
A wise man would evaluate what he has on hand before tearing an engine down.

Does the crankshaft turn? If not then yea, it's a good idea to pull it apart and evaluate what needs replacement.
If the crank turns 360° smoothly. Chances are you might not need to tear it down.

The reason I'm saying this is. Because the rocker boxes look pretty clean. Despite the minor rust on the rockers and valve springs. Most of the time on a poorly maintained engine. The rocker boxes will have coke (burned oil film) on the head, rockers, valve springs...... This does not appear to be the case.

All this is, of course your choice on what action you choose to take.

Good Luck.


Thank you so much for all the help, much appreciated! the plan was to check and disassemble last Friday but the kids and the girlfriend took me out for a belated birthday bash, that was fun. I will set it up Monday on the engine stand and check on the rotation of the crank before taking anything apart or out.

I am with you on this, the previous owner did say he did rebuilt certain things on the engine but the unknown of how long and how the engine was stored is what was scaring me. I will check on the rotation of the crank first and go from there!
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 08, 2020 12:55 am    Post subject: Re: So it starts now, the rebuild of our 63 rag Reply with quote

Rome wrote:
I also agree with first making sure the crankshaft rotates freely. Pull off the rocker shafts and pushrods. Keep each pushrod marked as per its location, so that they are inserted back into the engine at the original locations. The steel rounded ends wear into the components (lifters + rocker arm cups) over time and that wear should be maintained.

You can also fill the crankcase with diesel fuel, shake the engine a few times each day to slosh it around, then drain it after a week. Diesel is a mild solvent so that when its in contact with the sides and even the ceiling of the engine case, lots of dirt should come out. You still should run an initial "clean out" quantity of engine oil and drain it after the engine is warm, so that this oil circulates through the oil passages and the oil cooler. Thin oil such as 5W-20 is good for this. For the final fill, use 10W-30 oil.

You can clean up the rocker adjusting nuts, studs and spring retainers with a wire wheel bench grinder. Oil them when refitting.

I strongly recommend replacing the exhaust valves in both heads as a precaution. If you find that you can't remove the original valves because they only go down into the guide until the valve end (where the rocker adjuster touches it) is nearly flush with the guide end, don't force the valve through. Instead, push it back out and run a strip of emery cloth around the valve end so that any burrs or slight mushrooming of the tip is sanded down. By doing this you are saving your valve guides at least until after your family event this summer.

Clean and degrease the heads in the combustion chamber. Best to use a brass bristle brush in a drill (wear goggles) that does not dig into the aluminum head material.

Take the intake valves out while you're there (keep track of their head position) and if they look OK, lap them into the seats.

I would not trust a valve spring that has rust and pitting on it. Replace with a new, or used unrusted one. The rust eats away at the metal surface and slowly weakens the spring steel. The repeated compression and rebound of the spring during normal operation can cause a fatigue break right at the rust spot. I've seen this on an engine breakdown during a long road trip 20 years ago. We were able to perform a field fix to replace the spring with an unrusted used one.

With the heads off, check each piston and cylinder for rust flakes at the bottom of the cylinder. Clean out as well as possible with the cylinders in place, using shop rags. Just before fitting a head to one side, spray some engine oil around the perimeter of the pistons so that there's an initial bit of lube to the rings when you start up the engine.

Check your pushrod tubes for rust-through and replace as needed. New and used tubes need be pulled apart slightly so that they compress when the heads are tightened and seal against both ends (case and heads). Use the creamy white silicone seals, not the red ones in kits which can break with age.

Run an M8 x 1.25 die over each of the head's exhaust flange studs. They are usually nicked from previous tightening/removal attempts or have rust on them, and you want the threads to enable the fastening nuts to be run down hand tight before you tighten with a tool.


Wow thank you so much with all the tips on this, crazy details that will definitely help me along the way, i appreciate that. i will be doing the mounting of the engine on the engine stand on Monday, so i will definitely check on the rotation of the crank and go from there. If it does rotate freely, i will follow you guys information to clean and check on everything. I am really pumped about this and looking forward to it.

The rust on the valve springs seems to be just barely surface due to the top holders, which i was going to replace, but if you think its a good step to replace the springs as well, sounds like cheap insurance really. Does the High Rev springs off of J-Bug good or should i look for another brand?

What size exhaust valves are on the 1600cc, 32mm? Sorry for the rookie question, first aircooled engine lol.

I know timelines are difficult to follow but she will be running this summer, with safety and somewhat reliability, small details and cosmetic will be for later. The family event is a very important milestone for that car to be there, so hopefully it will make that, only time will tell!

thanks for all the help!
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 08, 2020 1:04 am    Post subject: Re: So it starts now, the rebuild of our 63 rag Reply with quote

slave1pilot wrote:
Congrats on the new acquisition
I too have a 63 ragtop that I had Planned to get running and drive while I fixed it up
This is what I looked Like when I got It home .
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


And 5 years later, this is how it was last weekend
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



Be careful, sometimes life happens and stuff gets pushed onto the back burner.
or , simple repairs have a way of snowballing into full blown pan-off restorations lol
So don't worry about missed self-imposed timelines, just stick with it and enjoy the build


Thanks man, love your car! i get it on timelines, i had a 1992 GTI 2L 16V that i put aside in 2008 to do a timing belt, clutch and exhaust on it. I waived goodbye to it on a trailer last year, knowing that i would never get to it and rather have someone enjoy the project, still sad about it today.

With that said, it was for a good reason, having completed a dream car of mine during that time, having 5 other cars in the stable and knowing that my new aircooled is what i always wanted to have, had to prioritize. Plus, i had a 1992 GTI 16V before in my life, so i could let go of this one.

Thank you for the kind words, i will definitely enjoy the build, no matter of the timeline!
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 08, 2020 1:04 am    Post subject: Re: So it starts now, the rebuild of our 63 rag Reply with quote

SBD wrote:
I miss my '63 ragtop. Crying or Very sad


I bet! i was so happy to get that one, i can imagine.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 08, 2020 5:01 am    Post subject: Re: So it starts now, the rebuild of our 63 rag Reply with quote

You can get new stock valve springs in the classifieds here from Jeff Gagnon for $2 each. I don't think you'd need hi rev springs for that setup.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 08, 2020 8:38 am    Post subject: Re: So it starts now, the rebuild of our 63 rag Reply with quote

rah253 wrote:
SBD wrote:
I miss my '63 ragtop. Crying or Very sad


I bet! i was so happy to get that one, i can imagine.
Mine was totaled when a Mercury Marquis ran a red light back in 1992. Rolling Eyes
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mark tucker wrote:
I wouldent waste $ or thyme on building a small motor. build it big so it dosent have to work hard.remember it's only as fast as your foot alows it to be unless you build a small turd then it just stinks as it squishes up through your toes when you step on it.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 08, 2020 9:09 am    Post subject: Re: So it starts now, the rebuild of our 63 rag Reply with quote

I just dragged a '63 Ragtop home, also. I'll be watching this space with great interest!
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