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jpaull Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2005 Posts: 3456 Location: Paradise, Ca
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Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2020 12:17 am Post subject: Chinese MSD Distributor Tips & Tricks + Budget ignition Demo |
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There's always a compromise between cheap, fast, and reliable. Or is there? Points are damn reliable. As long as your not using a coil less then 3ohms and pulling more juice then the points can handle, you can have a decent running vintage performance aircooled ride. No harm there, its a classy way to go.
Next, you can get a Magnaspark or any other internal/external module based setup that now allows you to run a hotter coil. All is fine, and you have more juice then stock as long as that module doesn't die. You can run a CDI box off it too, as long as that module doesn't die. If the module breaks down slightly, you will just loose performance and go nuts looking for the reason. You can go Ford TFI or GM modules, but its still a point of failure that I don't like. GM modules go bad if the wind blows the wrong way.
Finally, you can skip the first two ways and go with a Mag pickup only distributor like a MSD. Why are they so reliable? The reluctor wheel is HUGE. The Mag pickup is HUGE. No dinky magnets like a Pertronix and other "Points replacements". Mag pickups been the standard throughout the 80's/90's for OEMs and they lasted forever without issues, and the MSD and its copies have exactly the same model as the OEMs. But You need a CDI box. Nascar wont even let Digital boxes on the track as they don't want cars breaking down for stupid reasons, so they require analog. Old MSD boxes are analog. That MSD 6a from 20 years ago that's still running, yes, analog. You can buy Nascar 6A's now still. Old 7A boxes, Crane Hi6N, lots of others.
Now the subject at hand. MSD is $330, New CDI $250, Coil $90, you can have $700 in this stuff and not everyone can afford that.
Chinese stuff. Overview here that applies to many things produced in Chinese factories.
Bin #1 is the perfect stuff. No blemishes, marks, dings, all specs perfect and works perfect.
Bin #2 has some blemishes, marks, dings, but still functions ok.
Bin #3 has marks, imperfections, weird shit messed up, doesn't run or work and should be thrown away. This stuff should never make it out of the factory.
All the above comes from the same factory, and they sell Bin 1 for highest price to reputable companies that have good feedback. Bin 2 gets sold for medium prices, and Bin#3 gets sold to the cheapest SOB's. Just to add insult to injury, be prepared that everyone makes mistakes and that crap from bin #3 that should have been thrown away, could end up in your hands no matter what cause it didn't get thrown away.
So I ordered one of these Procomp/Speedmanster MSD copies from Speedmaster on ebay. Turns out, they sold me a bin#3 turd. 1 of the reluctors was longer then the others, so the air gap could not be adjusted. Also, the mag pickup could not sit straight. Sent it back, refunded.
Ordered from a better supplier of the same product, was $20 more, got a bin#2 decent workable distributor. $62+shipping.
The only thing I don't care for, is the solid (non-floating) distributor drive dog. Being solid it will work, but it will take a toll on things.
Bearing on one side, bushing on the other, and they are a perfect fit. Cleaned, regreased, installed a Bosch drive dog with shims, adjusted airgap, polished up a little, painted the toys r us red cap brown, added some old school wire sheath and ready to test.
Good used analog Nascar CDI take offs with coils can be had for $200, and I have 80 in the MSD copy. That's $280 for a very reliable VERY hot ignition.
Just to see a comparison for fun, (and for my 7 year old to understand how things work) I made up this demo setup that holds 2 distributors side by side, 2 electric motors with old distributor drives cut in half, some old gate metal and a few wires/paint/plugs and its ready to go.
I wanted complete plugs/wires, with plugs as close as possible to see differences between different coils/cdi/distributors.
On the left, Bosch with points, non resister rotor, copper terminals, bosch blue coil.
On the right, the MSD Copy, Crane Hi6N, LX92. Not randomly picked. That combo packs more punch then most, and all for less then $300.
Now getting a Photo of 2 spark plugs from opposing distributors firing at the exact same time is not easy, but here is a nice shot:
If you ever wanted to see 2 complete VW ignitions firing their own 4 plugs each both at the same time, and right next to eachother, see it here:
https://youtu.be/TZacsT7d8qY
Tested under normal light, then moved to a slightly darker area to show the spark better. Also, at the end notice the huge difference in what kind of spark is jumping the coil wire gap.
So why a Copy MSD distributor instead of used Real MSD? Cause they are rarely sold used, everyone keeps them! However, very reliable CDI boxes are sold used all the time, along with good quality older coils. The gap that needs to be filled here is the distributor, so making these work can solve a lot of problems.
I could write a essay describing 1000 more things and in great detail that can help more, but I have a heart for the average guy that is just trying to get powerful setup and not break down. I don't want to confuse anymore with my 1 post essay.
Last edited by jpaull on Sat Mar 14, 2020 7:42 am; edited 1 time in total |
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herbie1200 Samba Member
Joined: April 27, 2006 Posts: 832 Location: Rome - Italy
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Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2020 1:30 am Post subject: Re: Chinese MSD Distributor Tips and Tricks + Complete Ignition Demo |
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I do not agree with the advance system of this distributor.
Two different springs are used, but they act on the same distance, so they are unuseful.
The correct arrangement is when one of the springs has a longer hook, so its force is applied only at higher rpms.
Springs in the distributor in the photo instead have the same hook, so they start their counter-force at the same time... as if they where a single spring.
If you dismantle a good Bosch unit you will find one of the spring with a "U" shaped hook with the result that the advance curve has 2 different slopes, giving a better approximation of an advance parabolic "curve". |
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King_vw61 Samba Member
Joined: February 03, 2018 Posts: 1383 Location: Southern California
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Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2020 4:13 am Post subject: Re: Chinese MSD Distributor Tips and Tricks + Complete Ignition Demo |
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Nice write up on something a lot of Vw people overlook. The car runs so much smoother and starts easier with better spark. My setup is on the extreme hi side of the spectrum. 1800 easily just in ignition. But your example for under 400 you are getting a very reliable setup that will put a smile on every one who tries it out and see’s what it’s like to have your car start like a new car. |
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Glenn Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001 Posts: 76760 Location: Sneaking up behind you
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Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2020 4:18 am Post subject: Re: Chinese MSD Distributor Tips and Tricks + Complete Ignition Demo |
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jpaull wrote: |
Now the subject at hand. MSD is $330, New CDI $250, Coil $90, you can have $700 in this stuff and not everyone can afford that. |
I really doubt the person buying a ignition system like this is putting it on a stock engine. So lets assume it will be put on a performance engine. One with dual carbs, so unless with a floor sweeper engine, they most likely have $4000+ into it. So now spending $700 doesn't seem that unreasonable.
Also all the MSD copies i've seen have linear advance where the Bosch units have an actual curve where the increase in advance changes over the rpm range. Linear might be good for the drag strip but not on the street.
BTW.. nice display. _________________ Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
Member #1009
#BlueSquare |
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norris Samba Member
Joined: November 25, 2009 Posts: 501 Location: Texas
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Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2020 5:59 am Post subject: Re: Chinese MSD Distributor Tips and Tricks + Complete Ignition Demo |
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Very cool demo....I’d run it! I’ve got close to a grand in the ign in my ‘54.
Bosch 010 (perfectly rebuilt) is currently over $500! Add a Winterburn and coil....you’re over a grand in a hurry!.....if you want high quality “old school”. And the spark is not near this hot.
Great job Jeff!
Thanks |
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fl59bug Samba Member
Joined: November 23, 2005 Posts: 1976 Location: North Carolina
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Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2020 7:25 am Post subject: Re: Chinese MSD Distributor Tips and Tricks + Complete Ignition Demo |
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Thanks jpaull - your hands-on mentality is very impressive. I don't even think about the cool setups you come up with until I see you build them. You are very creative. Me - I'm just a bunch of dusty cobwebs upstairs, lol!
I appreciate the comparisons and write-ups on these distributors, as I will be needing all the components you provided this interesting information about, when my 2332 gets to that point. I didn't even know there were Chinese MSD 8485 distributor copies, nor was I aware of the tiered quality levels!
Take care - Ted |
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Glenn Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001 Posts: 76760 Location: Sneaking up behind you
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Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2020 7:29 am Post subject: Re: Chinese MSD Distributor Tips and Tricks + Complete Ignition Demo |
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I the reluctor trigger wheel rigid to the mainshaft or does it also rotate with the rotor as the advance kicks in? _________________ Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
Member #1009
#BlueSquare |
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rayjay Samba Member
Joined: March 26, 2008 Posts: 1501 Location: Buford GA
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Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2020 8:00 am Post subject: Re: Chinese MSD Distributor Tips and Tricks + Complete Ignition Demo |
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For $100 or less you could have a brand new GM HEI module and a suitable E-core ign coil and do everything the MSD set up will do.
Once you have the mag impulse distributor then it's simple to have a "modern" [ circa early 70's ] electronic ign . If you ever need a replacement module any local auto parts store has one in stock. Heck, if you are a worry wart like me it would be cheap to have a spare one in the car.
ETA - any decent electronic ign should specify .045 or larger point gap.
https://www.streetmusclemag.com/tech-stories/spark...to-gm-hei/ |
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j-dub Samba Member
Joined: November 09, 2003 Posts: 865 Location: Phoenix, AZ
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Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2020 8:24 am Post subject: Re: Chinese MSD Distributor Tips and Tricks + Complete Ignition Demo |
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Jpaull,
Very interesting and quite a unique test stand, great job as always!
When you have a chance, can you comment on how much scatter a single terminal has when you rev the engine up? Also, how many degrees difference does each cylinder vary between each other. I typically find two or three degrees between the cylinders is common on these type of pickups, I have tried to bend the ears on the reluctor wheel with no success because they end up breaking. The one I have seems to be made of a sintered metal.
Ignition points to worry about:
spark energy
spark scatter and variance between cylinders
advance matches your engine
overall reliability _________________ 1957 Oval rag
"POLICE STATION TOILET STOLEN ... Cops have nothing to go on." |
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DerrickfromNC1 Samba Member
Joined: October 24, 2008 Posts: 1293 Location: North Carolina
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Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2020 8:37 am Post subject: Re: Chinese MSD Distributor Tips and Tricks + Complete Ignition Demo |
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I see MSD 6als on Craigslist all the time....how can I tell if it’s an original oldskool model or a new copy? |
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chrisflstf Samba Member
Joined: February 10, 2004 Posts: 3413 Location: San Diego
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Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2020 8:59 am Post subject: Re: Chinese MSD Distributor Tips and Tricks + Complete Ignition Demo |
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Very cool . The video says alot about the spark |
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Bruce Amacker Samba Member
Joined: December 26, 2007 Posts: 1786 Location: Cleveland, Ohio
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Howard 111 Samba Member
Joined: July 09, 2005 Posts: 1827 Location: Virginia
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Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2020 9:54 am Post subject: Re: Chinese MSD Distributor Tips and Tricks + Complete Ignition Demo |
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I run a turbo, and an all MSD ignition, all made in USA. The only thing I've changed is the distributor cap, because a grey one looked better with my engine than the red one. _________________ 1973 Karmann Ghia
Turbocharged, Fuel Injected
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=531270 |
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King_vw61 Samba Member
Joined: February 03, 2018 Posts: 1383 Location: Southern California
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Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2020 9:56 am Post subject: Re: Chinese MSD Distributor Tips and Tricks + Complete Ignition Demo |
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DerrickfromNC1 wrote: |
I see MSD 6als on Craigslist all the time....how can I tell if it’s an original oldskool model or a new copy? |
Search on here or google how to tell the fake/copy msd. They have 2 or 3 things that you would only notice once someone pointed them out. Here is one I searched.
"Just came accross my desk that their are Counterfeit MSD 6AL boxes. The easiest way to tell is all of them have the serial number 682013. Here are some other tell tale signs:
All REAL MSD boxes have torx head screws, the counterfeits have phillips.
All REAL MSD boxes heat fins should measure no more then .150", the counterfeits vary and are larger.
This was old and i'm sure there are more things to look for now.
All REAL MSD boxes on the end the mag input is on the left and tach output is on the right, the counterfeits are reversed.
These are in packaging that look like MSD and it is hard to tell. Please beware of a "DEAL" on these items" |
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jpaull Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2005 Posts: 3456 Location: Paradise, Ca
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Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2020 10:14 am Post subject: Re: Chinese MSD Distributor Tips and Tricks + Complete Ignition Demo |
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ivkings4 wrote: |
DerrickfromNC1 wrote: |
I see MSD 6als on Craigslist all the time....how can I tell if it’s an original oldskool model or a new copy? |
Search on here or google how to tell the fake/copy msd. They have 2 or 3 things that you would only notice once someone pointed them out. Here is one I searched.
"Just came accross my desk that their are Counterfeit MSD 6AL boxes. The easiest way to tell is all of them have the serial number 682013. Here are some other tell tale signs:
All REAL MSD boxes have torx head screws, the counterfeits have phillips.
All REAL MSD boxes heat fins should measure no more then .150", the counterfeits vary and are larger.
This was old and i'm sure there are more things to look for now.
All REAL MSD boxes on the end the mag input is on the left and tach output is on the right, the counterfeits are reversed.
These are in packaging that look like MSD and it is hard to tell. Please beware of a "DEAL" on these items" |
Great points. Also, all the new MSD boxes are digital. Even the genuine MSD digital that costs $250 might have issues, and for this reason is why I mentioned the older analog boxes are a great value. The digiatal boxes are what gave MSD a bad name. All the failers are with the digitals. The older analog 6A, 6AL, etc last forever.
The MSD 6ALN is the one analog Nascar version still sold new today. Or if on a budget, buy used for 120-150.
The Crane HI6N nascar has a bit more power then the MSD6ALN and can drive a more powerfull coil like the LX/PX 92. Also lots of these used for $150. I would trust ANY of these used analog CDI boxes over brand new digital stuff. |
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AlteWagen Troll
Joined: February 23, 2007 Posts: 8498 Location: PNW
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Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2020 10:30 am Post subject: Re: Chinese MSD Distributor Tips and Tricks + Complete Ignition Demo |
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Howard 111 wrote: |
I run a turbo, and an all MSD ignition, all made in USA. The only thing I've changed is the distributor cap, because a grey one looked better with my engine than the red one. |
I thought MSD moved all its production to China a decade ago which is why reliability has suffered so much. _________________ Grapes of Wrath $200 Engine Rebuild
Official Dual Carb Thread
Cylinder Head Quick Reference Sheet |
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21474 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2020 11:03 am Post subject: Re: Chinese MSD Distributor Tips and Tricks + Complete Ignition Demo |
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herbie1200 wrote: |
I do not agree with the advance system of this distributor.
Two different springs are used, but they act on the same distance, so they are unuseful.
The correct arrangement is when one of the springs has a longer hook, so its force is applied only at higher rpms.
Springs in the distributor in the photo instead have the same hook, so they start their counter-force at the same time... as if they where a single spring.
If you dismantle a good Bosch unit you will find one of the spring with a "U" shaped hook with the result that the advance curve has 2 different slopes, giving a better approximation of an advance parabolic "curve". |
This is normal. Virtually all fuel injected type 3 and 4 Bosch distributors from the factory have asymmetrical springs on otherwise symmetrical weights.
Its designed this way so that advance kicks in in two stages. Ray |
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Glenn Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001 Posts: 76760 Location: Sneaking up behind you
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Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2020 11:33 am Post subject: Re: Chinese MSD Distributor Tips and Tricks + Complete Ignition Demo |
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raygreenwood wrote: |
herbie1200 wrote: |
I do not agree with the advance system of this distributor.
Two different springs are used, but they act on the same distance, so they are unuseful.
The correct arrangement is when one of the springs has a longer hook, so its force is applied only at higher rpms.
Springs in the distributor in the photo instead have the same hook, so they start their counter-force at the same time... as if they where a single spring.
If you dismantle a good Bosch unit you will find one of the spring with a "U" shaped hook with the result that the advance curve has 2 different slopes, giving a better approximation of an advance parabolic "curve". |
This is normal. Virtually all fuel injected type 3 and 4 Bosch distributors from the factory have asymmetrical springs on otherwise symmetrical weights.
Its designed this way so that advance kicks in in two stages. Ray |
_________________ Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
Member #1009
#BlueSquare |
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Alstrup Samba Member
Joined: July 12, 2007 Posts: 7183 Location: Videbaek Denmark
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Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2020 11:38 am Post subject: Re: Chinese MSD Distributor Tips and Tricks + Complete Ignition Demo |
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herbie1200 wrote: |
I do not agree with the advance system of this distributor.
Two different springs are used, but they act on the same distance, so they are unuseful.
The correct arrangement is when one of the springs has a longer hook, so its force is applied only at higher rpms.
Springs in the distributor in the photo instead have the same hook, so they start their counter-force at the same time... as if they where a single spring.
If you dismantle a good Bosch unit you will find one of the spring with a "U" shaped hook with the result that the advance curve has 2 different slopes, giving a better approximation of an advance parabolic "curve". |
Don´t know with that thing above, but a Mallory or Pertronix do the same, only both springs get active much sooner due to the size and weight of the distributor head.
Wrt the 6ALN. What I DON´T like about those boxes are that they need chips for rpm liimits. and when they get old they begin to make noise. Very annoying if it is installed in the rear baggage tray or under the back seat which most are. Also, I must have been lucky, because I hav yet to see the first failiure on a digital unit. Many years ago a customer of mine had a Mallory VII that began to make noise. Did´nt die, just became noisy. So when winter came we sent it back to Mallory for repair. It actually came back with no charge eventhough it was more than 2 years old. Good customer service. |
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heimlich VWNOS.com
Joined: November 20, 2016 Posts: 6558 Location: Houston, Texas
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Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2020 12:10 pm Post subject: Re: Chinese MSD Distributor Tips and Tricks + Complete Ignition Demo |
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raygreenwood wrote: |
This is normal. Virtually all fuel injected type 3 and 4 Bosch distributors from the factory have asymmetrical springs on otherwise symmetrical weights.
Its designed this way so that advance kicks in in two stages. Ray |
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