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RWilliamsga Samba Member
Joined: August 22, 2019 Posts: 31
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Posted: Sat May 23, 2020 6:51 pm Post subject: Re: Stewartsoda's '72 Super Build Thread |
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Probably not good esp if valve hit piston may be it just pushed it back heads got to come off. |
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stewartsoda Samba Member
Joined: February 03, 2020 Posts: 88 Location: Treasure Valley, ID
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Posted: Tue Jun 02, 2020 6:08 am Post subject: Re: Stewartsoda's '72 Super Build Thread |
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Alright, we're doing this again? We're doing this again. Motor's out.
I messed up some of the front engine tin while I was getting it out. Oops.
I think that I found my "potential" exhaust leaks, too, based on the carbon pattern here.
Now I just have to start taking the engine apart... _________________ 1972 Super Build |
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stewartsoda Samba Member
Joined: February 03, 2020 Posts: 88 Location: Treasure Valley, ID
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Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2020 7:25 am Post subject: Re: Stewartsoda's '72 Super Build Thread |
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I got into the engine tonight, and what did I find?
Surprise 92mm pistons!
Oh, looks like #4 is not as good as I hoped...
Guess we're doing a rebuild now! _________________ 1972 Super Build |
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stewartsoda Samba Member
Joined: February 03, 2020 Posts: 88 Location: Treasure Valley, ID
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Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2020 7:33 am Post subject: Re: Stewartsoda's '72 Super Build Thread |
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Also, I can't help but think that this thing should have been doing a lot better than it was since it was an 1835cc motor. That Weber Progressive I think is all out of whack.
I hear clearancing a case for a 78mm crank is not too hard and can be easily done by the most hamfisted of shadetree mechanics who is halfway competent with a Dremel, especially if the case has been opened for larger pistons. Anyone have any experience or comments on the truth of that?
So far here's what I'm thinking. Here's the easy stuff:
92mm P&Cs
78mm counterweighted crank
Stock conrods
Probably stock heater boxes, but I need a new set so if it's not too many more $$$ for 1 1/2" with a matching exhaust then I might do that.
That's the easy part, now we get to talk about the hard stuff.
Heads? I've heard good things about Mofoco, 041 if I'm using stock heater boxes, 042 if I'm going bigger. Or CB Panchito 44s? Or somethign else?
Cam? I have no idea here, open to suggestions for something that would be driveable, probably more torquey than high-revving HP.
Carbs? Weber IDF seems to be the standard, but I'm cheap so maybe the Empi HPMX is okay? 40mm? 44mm? _________________ 1972 Super Build |
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stewartsoda Samba Member
Joined: February 03, 2020 Posts: 88 Location: Treasure Valley, ID
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Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2020 1:51 pm Post subject: Re: Stewartsoda's '72 Super Build Thread |
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I guess the other option is to say "screw it" and keep it as-is, get a gasket kit, ear it down, replace bearings as needed, and put the money into carbs, while saving up for my stroker build at some point in the future. _________________ 1972 Super Build |
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Buggeee Samba Member
Joined: December 22, 2016 Posts: 4419 Location: Stuck in Ohio
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Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2020 2:35 pm Post subject: Re: Stewartsoda's '72 Super Build Thread |
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stewartsoda wrote: |
I guess the other option is to say "screw it" and keep it as-is, get a gasket kit, ear it down, replace bearings as needed, and put the money into carbs, while saving up for my stroker build at some point in the future. |
I would think this is the way if it is going to be driven this summer. If it's going to be laid up until next year anyway then there is plenty of time for anything. Hello, by the way.
It looks like you scored a nice bug with lots of easy potential. Enjoy _________________ 1966 Sportsmobile Camper https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...mp;start=0
72 Super Duper http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=672387
(adopted out) 61 Turkis Pile https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=728764
SnowDaySyncro wrote: |
Every setback is an opportunity to learn stuff and to buy new tools. |
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stewartsoda Samba Member
Joined: February 03, 2020 Posts: 88 Location: Treasure Valley, ID
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Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2020 8:00 am Post subject: Re: Stewartsoda's '72 Super Build Thread |
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Okay, this project has sat for a long time while I cleared another project off my plate. That one isn't quite done, but the weather will put a hold on it. So now I'm back to the Bug.
Progress over the summer:
Scored a new/old hood at the local pick-and-pull which is a little rough in the rust department but at least it isn't all banged up in the front.
Found some heater boxes in better shape than the leaky ones I have.
Picked up some nice chrome rear ashtrays. I don't smoke, but the idea of ashtrays is fun to me.
Picked up a pair of new/old window regulators, cleaned the driver's side one up and replaced the crappy aftermarket one I had bought. Works much better!
Relocated the stereo from my old car (had to go buy a cheapie for my son who is driving it now) to the Bug.
Found out the speakers are trash. Gonna have to replace them all.
New door panels are on the way since the PO cut them to install speakers, but installed them where they are firing right into the base of the seat. Might work if I had ears in my hips or something.
Measured the case and found it has already been line bored .040 over. No thrust cut. Main bearings are still tight and look new. Crank looks in good shape.
Cam looked a bit flat on a couple of lobes. Some light pitting. Lifters looked pretty worn on their faces. Maybe the PO ran the wrong kind of oil without enough ZDDP?
CC'ed the heads. 60cc. That's bigger than I was hoping and will limit my cam choice due to low CR. They are some no-name casting. Sooty. Car must have been running super rich. Remember when I got it the choke was always on?
Measured the deck height with the 92mm AA pistons/cylinders that came with it. Somewhere between .045 and .050 with no spacers. PO had a .040 spacer installed, making a deck height of .090, which gives a CR of close to 7:1. He was running an EMPI 110 cam, which I think is better suited for higher CR. John at aircooled.net says for the Engle W110 (which is supposedly the same duration and lift as the EMPI copycat) to plan for 8.25:1-8.75:1, which the PO was nowhere near with that spacer and those huge combustion chambers.
So I'm rebuilding it with the following:
EMPI 69mm forged counterweighted crank that was in it
New AA 92mm jugs/pistons
SCAT C25 cam
SCAT lightweight followers
stock rods
~7.7:1 CR (no spacers)
No-name DP heads, stock size valves (with new HD springs)
Weber 32/36DFEV that was in it (have to check the jets, I think it was running pretty rich)
EMPI single quiet pack exhaust that I already have
I need a better intake manifold and to do an exhaust mod to make the manifold heat work better so my progressive will run right. The EMPI header just has the manifold heat tubes dump right into the header pipes (both high-pressure areas), I want to relocate one to the collector (a low-pressure area) so I get actual flow. I've read with the way it's set up now you just get kinda ... pulsing back and forth but the actual heat sucks.
Parts are on order and should get here in time for this to be my Christmas break project. Still have to get some odds and ends: the manifold heat riser gaskets, the heater box to heater accordion tube thingie seals, new jets for the carb, spark plug wires, etc. _________________ 1972 Super Build |
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AutoMechanic Samba Member
Joined: December 28, 2019 Posts: 483 Location: Roanoke Virginia
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Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2020 8:12 am Post subject: Re: Stewartsoda's '72 Super Build Thread |
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Great. Glad you were able to get a new hood for it and fix it up some more. |
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stewartsoda Samba Member
Joined: February 03, 2020 Posts: 88 Location: Treasure Valley, ID
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Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2020 8:54 pm Post subject: Re: Stewartsoda's '72 Super Build Thread |
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Tore in to the carb during lunch. It's a Weber 32/36DFEV. Jetting is stock from the factory:
Idle jets: 55/50
Main jets: 137/140
Air jets: 165/160
Compared to ACN's recommendations for my altitude with a poorly-heated intake:
Idle jets: 45/55 (leaner on the primary, a little richer on the secondary)
Main jets: 130/175 (a little leaner on the primary, richer on the secondary)
Air jets: 180/200 (quite a bit leaner on both)
This thing was probably running super rich when I would get into the main jets at higher RPMs. That would explain the very sooty combustion chambers, pistons, and exhaust ports.
New jets and a new better heated manifold on the way now. I'll try and find a local muffler shop to do the preheat modification I need on my exhaust manifold. If the preheat and new manifold work well I may have to drop down a size on the jets, we'll see. _________________ 1972 Super Build |
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stewartsoda Samba Member
Joined: February 03, 2020 Posts: 88 Location: Treasure Valley, ID
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Posted: Sun Dec 20, 2020 2:05 pm Post subject: Re: Stewartsoda's '72 Super Build Thread |
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Ugh, the better manifold was a bust. It's the kind that runs the heat up the manifold, not just along the base.
Unfortunately someone drilled right through the bottom so it's not really doing its job any better than the one I already have.
So maybe I'll run my oil line through the manifold instead of messing with my exhaust. I'll be getting dual carbs at some point down the road anyway, negating the need for external manifold heat. _________________ 1972 Super Build |
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stewartsoda Samba Member
Joined: February 03, 2020 Posts: 88 Location: Treasure Valley, ID
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Posted: Mon Mar 08, 2021 5:16 pm Post subject: Re: Stewartsoda's '72 Super Build Thread |
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So. Seat bushings. I ordered some new seat bushings from Jbugs (I think) and they are too thick or something. The seat binds when sliding it back on the mount.
I managed to force it and it broke out the end of the bushing from the bushing catching inside the track on the seat bottom.
So for now I have the driver's seat in a spot where I like it and won't be moving it for a while.
Not sure if there's an easy fix for this.
EDIT: This thread describes a fix. Shaving down the bottom of the bushing helps.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=721750&highlight=seat+bushings _________________ 1972 Super Build
Last edited by stewartsoda on Mon Mar 08, 2021 5:19 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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stewartsoda Samba Member
Joined: February 03, 2020 Posts: 88 Location: Treasure Valley, ID
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Posted: Mon Mar 08, 2021 5:17 pm Post subject: Re: Stewartsoda's '72 Super Build Thread |
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I got the right jets in the carb. The float setting was WAAAAAY off. I don't remember what it was, but it would have made the fuel level in the bowl way too low. This would have leaned out the mixture, maybe negating (partially) the over-jetting of the carb.
We'll see when I get the engine back together. _________________ 1972 Super Build |
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Buggeee Samba Member
Joined: December 22, 2016 Posts: 4419 Location: Stuck in Ohio
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Rome Samba Member
Joined: June 02, 2004 Posts: 9653 Location: Pearl River, NY
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Posted: Mon Mar 08, 2021 9:30 pm Post subject: Re: Stewartsoda's '72 Super Build Thread |
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Did you receive the parts you intended to order?
Quote: |
So I'm rebuilding it with the following:
EMPI 69mm forged counterweighted crank that was in it
New AA 92mm jugs/pistons
SCAT C25 cam
SCAT lightweight followers
stock rods
~7.7:1 CR (no spacers)
No-name DP heads, stock size valves (with new HD springs) |
The 92 cylinders on the original engine are most likely the thin wall 92's, whereby the head is bored to the same diameter as for 90.5 mm cylinders (1776 cc).
You could do any of 3 things with the new cylinders and new heads:
-Bore the heads for the 90.5 mm /92 mm size. Use new 90.5 mm cylinders.
-Bore the heads for 90.5 / 92 and buy new thin-wall 92 mm cylinders.
-Bore the heads for 94 mm cylinder size and buy THICK-wall 92 mm cylinders that fit into the same case opening as your original 92's. You still only end up with 1835 cc but the vast increase in cylinder thickness compared to thin-wall 92's is much more resistant to heat warpage. Though Cusser has used thin-wall 92's for decades in AZ. |
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stewartsoda Samba Member
Joined: February 03, 2020 Posts: 88 Location: Treasure Valley, ID
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Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2021 11:58 am Post subject: Re: Stewartsoda's '72 Super Build Thread |
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Rome wrote: |
Did you receive the parts you intended to order?
<snip>
The 92 cylinders on the original engine are most likely the thin wall 92's, whereby the head is bored to the same diameter as for 90.5 mm cylinders (1776 cc).
You could do any of 3 things with the new cylinders and new heads:
-Bore the heads for the 90.5 mm /92 mm size. Use new 90.5 mm cylinders.
-Bore the heads for 90.5 / 92 and buy new thin-wall 92 mm cylinders.
-Bore the heads for 94 mm cylinder size and buy THICK-wall 92 mm cylinders that fit into the same case opening as your original 92's. You still only end up with 1835 cc but the vast increase in cylinder thickness compared to thin-wall 92's is much more resistant to heat warpage. Though Cusser has used thin-wall 92's for decades in AZ. |
Yeah, the case is already bored for 90.5mm/92mm. Cusser and a few locals influenced my decision to go with the 92 thin walls, I'll be running full tin, and this isn't my "forever engine" so I figure I'll see how it goes.
The other option is to sell the 92mm jugs and pistons and buy some 92TWs, I would have done that but I was originally planning on reusing my heads when I bought all the parts. Now that I need new heads ... I'm still noodling on this one.
And then I think "well I'll just get the case bored and decked for 94s and build a 1915." It's a slippery slope _________________ 1972 Super Build |
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stewartsoda Samba Member
Joined: February 03, 2020 Posts: 88 Location: Treasure Valley, ID
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Posted: Mon Mar 15, 2021 7:34 am Post subject: Re: Stewartsoda's '72 Super Build Thread |
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Mofoco 041 heads on order now.
Aircooled.net says I should target 7.5-8:1 CR with the Scat C25 camshaft. With the 55cc Mofoco heads that means I need .060 deck or I'm gonna be too high. Guess I need some spacers.
The engine came with .035 spacers (at least measured by my cheap calipers), that would put me at 7.8:1, assuming the new pistons and cylinders give me the same deck height as the old set I measured.
I got the crankshaft together over the weekend. The main bearings looked pretty good, but I replaced them anyway. Couldn't get the cam gear off so I didn't replace #3. Three our of four ain't bad, right?
I weighed and balanced the rods (they were pretty close), and the pistons. One of the rods was a little heavy, one of the pistons was a little light, I balanced them so the heavy rod and light piston were on the same side of the engine as the lightest combo, it should be within a gram of the total weight of the other side. Trying to keep things balanced from a lateral motion perspective. I know there will be a slight yaw moment due to the skew in weight, but the weight difference is within tolerances (under 5g).
The thing I'm currently noodling on is how to deal with the pickup tube extension for my deep sump. the larger extension tube slips nicely over the existing pickup, but then I can't use the screen because the socket that tube fits in is too small. The smaller tube fits nicely in the screen, but I'd have to use the larger tube as a sleeve to connect it to the pickup. I guess that's what I'll do.
My Scat lifters have the oiling hole it looks like. I'm excited that they are the light ones (72g vs 90something), but that oiling hole has a burr on a few of the lifters so I think I'll have to stone it off with a fine diamond file or something. My lifter bores seem in pretty good shape.
For the exhaust I have an el-cheapo EMPI header and single quiet pack muffler. I was reading about how Vintage Speed manifold preheat works and I think I'm going to try welding some little scoops on the inside of the header near the preheat tubes. One just upstream on one side to create a low pressure area, one just downstream on the other to create a high pressure area. That should help crossflow better than the current setup which I've read just pulses back and forth.
Round two of upgrades is a while off but will probably be dual carbs and maybe a new exhaust, then I won't be worrying about preheat anyway. _________________ 1972 Super Build |
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stewartsoda Samba Member
Joined: February 03, 2020 Posts: 88 Location: Treasure Valley, ID
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Posted: Mon Mar 15, 2021 7:44 am Post subject: Re: Stewartsoda's '72 Super Build Thread |
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I keep thinking about the engine's old setup: a CR of 7.3ish:1 (too low for the cam), Empi 110 cam (with worn out lobes and lifters), and a Weber 32/36DFEV with the float level and the jetting all wrong and the choke stuck on (!!) this car probably ran like absolute trash and I didn't even know any better. I'm excited to get it running well. _________________ 1972 Super Build |
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stewartsoda Samba Member
Joined: February 03, 2020 Posts: 88 Location: Treasure Valley, ID
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Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 7:32 am Post subject: Re: Stewartsoda's '72 Super Build Thread |
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Alright, this weekend's work was on the front end. I knew I had to get the spare tire out so I could get to the steering damper mount. Problem: spare tire was crunched in place in the PO's front end accident. The spare tire well was smashed in a bit in the front.
(bad pic, but you can see where the apron is smooshed and the tire well was as well)
I aired up the tire to 45PSI to try to bend it back a bit (didn't do much). Then I released the air and started to get after it with a pry bar. It took a little elbow grease but I got it out.
Hey, look at that destroyed steering damper bushing!
So I replaced the damper and the bushing, next I'm going after the idler arm. I also discovered that my bearings need adjusting on the right front, so I'll get that done, too. Then comes black urethane bushings from Energy Suspension on the control arms and swaybar.
Still waiting on my heads. I am not a patient man. _________________ 1972 Super Build |
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Rome Samba Member
Joined: June 02, 2004 Posts: 9653 Location: Pearl River, NY
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Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 9:54 am Post subject: Re: Stewartsoda's '72 Super Build Thread |
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Quote: |
The spare tire well was smashed in a bit in the front. |
An idea came to me on how you can reshape the spare tire well. Use a scissor jack placed horizontally so that the jack pad moves frontward. Build a form out of layered plywood so that it resembles a donut that's cut across the diameter of the center hole so that you end up with 2 curved sections/"crescents".
Find some 1" thick plywood sheets that are at 2' wide. Trace your inflated spare tire on one; the inflated diameter is approx. 25.5" for a stock tire. Make a straight cut across the plywood approx. 9" up so that you end up with a crescent. Make 7 more sheets, then screw 4 each together so that you have two 4" tall crescents. Lay one at the back of the well so that the cut edge is transverse to the car. Lay the scissor jack in sideways, then place the other crescent into the well. The rear crescent will spread the cranking force around a large contact area of the well's vertical face. Crank open the jack so that the pad and the base are touching the crescents, then start cranking more for the jack to move. The front crescent should push against the bent well and start to move it frontwards. The more you crank and the more the well starts getting reshaped at the front, the closer the well contour will conform to the crescent shape.
Note that under the front of the car, between the front apron and the front of the spare tire well, is a sturdy "crash box" which lends rigidity to the front for front impact absorption. Maybe that box was only installed in later Supers... That box is likely mangled and cannot be easily straighened; it'll need replacement. Try to get that box out, or at least remove any fasteners that hold it front to back so that your scissor jack cranking is not fighting the sturdy metal of that box.
If this works and you are close to getting the spare tire well shape back close to original, keep pressure on the scissor jack. Then take a hammer and dolly to work down that upward bend of the sheetmetal to the right of the well. The bend should already start to get lowered as you reshape the spare tire well, but having the well and that sheetmetal under tension should help with pounding down the bend close to level.
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stewartsoda Samba Member
Joined: February 03, 2020 Posts: 88 Location: Treasure Valley, ID
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Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 10:06 am Post subject: Re: Stewartsoda's '72 Super Build Thread |
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Rome wrote: |
Quote: |
The spare tire well was smashed in a bit in the front. |
An idea came to me on how you can reshape the spare tire well.... |
That sounds like a good plan, I was thinking something along those lines if I could cut out some ... uhhh ... arches? Not quite semicircles, like the outside part of a circle subtended by a chord, is that called an arc? Whatever, like a D shape. Crescents, like you said.
Then gradually expanding it with a scissor jack.
Thanks for the tip on the crash box. I'll have to go look and see what's under there, I thought there wasn't anything between the front of the well and the backside of the apron but it did get crunched pretty good so I might have missed it.
I'll get on that after I finish the suspension work. After the engine work. After the door panels. After the speaker box. After the electrical work.
Always something to do..... _________________ 1972 Super Build |
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