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Rebuilding transaxle with Samba help! 091/1 (fun starts pg 4)
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old_man
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2020 8:43 am    Post subject: Re: Rebuilding transaxle with Samba help! 091/1 (fun starts pg 4) Reply with quote

It keeps getting cleaner and cleaner. I am on my last fill of my cheap stuff. I can either keep this stuff for a long/heavy trip coming up or swap it out for better stuff before. Not sure.


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?Waldo?
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2020 9:05 am    Post subject: Re: Rebuilding transaxle with Samba help! 091/1 (fun starts pg 4) Reply with quote

Looks good.
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IdahoDoug
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2020 9:35 am    Post subject: Re: Rebuilding transaxle with Samba help! 091/1 (fun starts pg 4) Reply with quote

I agree with Tom on the position that nobody looks at swarf (the machining leftovers in a new component) and the breakin dust and stuff like you are. I think it proves how logical and rational a couple changeouts to get rid of the abrasive crud really are.

From my past as a product planner for GM and Lexus, I have a parallel story. I bought a 1993 Toyota Landcruiser with factory front, center and rear lockers in 1992. Being of the Old Man/Tom school of clean fluids, I drained the diffs at about 5000 miles (recommended is 60k I think). I found some alarmingly large items about the size and shape of an infant's fingernail on the magnet from the front diff and bagged them with a sharpie note on miles on the bag. Did it again at 10k or so and barely anything.

One day the chief engineer for the 80 Series LandCruiser platform was in town from Japan and I was in a meeting with him. I brought my baggie and during a break pulled him aside. He assured me that it was normal swarf and that they'd done the same thing during testing and that even left in there it would not harm anything.

This is a massively built differential on a full floating axle and is built to an agricultural/mining level of service with no thought to minimize internal friction or control noise. Pure function.

The point I want to make is that while I'm sure it would not have changed the service life, there were clear benefits now that the Cruiser is 27 years old and has 235K on it. As a Cruiserhead, I'm in other 80 series' with other members and they often have this miles on them and the diffs put out a slight whine on the road. Mine are absolutely dead silent. So I believe I have significantly extended the service life of the components by draining out the breakin oil and continuing a policy of fresh gear oil as a cheap policy to enjoy it.

Another example might be the 97 LandCruiser our daughter has had at college for 4 years. Last week I flew to the Cruiser in Michigan and prepped it for a life in Texas. We bought this one at 120k and it had been mechanically well cared for as someone had painstakingly dabbed yellow paint on the diff drains to indicated they'd been serviced where typical owners often never drain the diffs as it's only indicated in severe service schedule. It now has 285k.

One service I performed is a fairly difficult and complex full front axle service to clean out the Birfields and the steering knuckles (the HD version of a CV joint - it's completely surrounded by steel vs a boot). These birfields often start clicking at 150k and of course mine have been coddled with correct repacks and synthetic grease since I got it so they don't at near twice the miles. I was pleased to note that the components of the Birfield (an internal star with huge ball bearings, an outer cage, and the "tulip" they live in looked unchanged from 160k ago.

The grease looked great, not dark with suspended metal, and the wear marks on the bits were not notably deeper. They're also silent in sharp turns. The reason I mention this is that I practice a service level on these birfs designed by Toyota for their life as mining vehicles in Australia - one of the largest buyers of these beasts. Typically, owners only service them when they start clicking or leaking. However there is an odd square plug atop the housing designed to insert the entire head of a grease gun in. As grease exits the assembly through huge 6" diameter sweep seals (it's designed to do this to keep contaminants out), I keep pace by putting fresh grease in the top annually - creating a slow motion "flow" of new grease coming in.

My log is full of references like "600 squirts each Birfield" and the like. So, a long way of saying this thread has been illustrative of the advantage of having fresh and clean fluid in any spinning assembly. I could go on and on about the Cruiser, which is still running on its ORIGINAL wheel bearings at 285k simply due to regular repacks and care.

So, keep 'em clean folks!!
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old_man
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2020 9:50 am    Post subject: Re: Rebuilding transaxle with Samba help! 091/1 (fun starts pg 4) Reply with quote

That's a good story Doug. At this point I think I am just going a little overboard with the changes. But...that stuff is cheap, this is science for the community, and, most importantly, I am moving soon and don't want to take the stuff with me.
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Sodo
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2020 2:29 pm    Post subject: Re: Rebuilding transaxle with Samba help! 091/1 (fun starts pg 4) Reply with quote

It's overboard if you are selling the van,
or if you wreck it,
or if changing the oil is difficult for you.

It's not overboard if you end up keeping it for 285k miles.
It's a pittance.

Aren't you glad you got that stuff out of there rather than making your beautiful, new, smooth, wonderful bearings ingest that same swarf particle 25,000 times?
For NO reason?
As one feller said "that stuff needs to get outta there". (member PCForno Wink )

This is not a "Tom" thing, this is a "Machinery Lubrication Journal" thing.
If you research what experts do - to extend the lifetime of over-driven, or aging machinery, and then do what they say, logic suggests you can realize a benefit.
One thing I like about the Machinery Lubrication Journal they "appear" to avoid oil advertising almost 100%.
Think for a moment the effort it would take to keep oil salesmen away.
And all their money, gifts, spiffs, and ignore their sirens song.
So much money in oil, but to let it in the door, would ruin the science, and their ability to actually SOLVE lubrication problems for their clients.
Do you expect genuine solutions from experts or from salesmen?

Current Vanagon 'custom' is to choose a gear oil by brand name, and renew the lubricant after the machinery makes noise.
Or start a proper maintenance after it's too late.

People buy into specialty oils with no proof whatsoever.
Not even WANTING proof, never even asking for it.
Logic cannot even touch that method. It's not logic it's "hope".
I do understand Hope, I employ it all the time running 173 HP thru my 82HP tranny.
Maintenance and proper lubrication while it's tight and quiet is the first and most important way.
Oil brands come second, and could help some, but their contribution is nothing compared to the ^^above^^ factor.

I've said this before and I'll say it again.
Experienced mechanics will tell you that steel in gear oil, is no problem, and they say a big fuzzy magnet looks fine.
But if they saw that magnet come out of an engine they built, they'd have to change their shorts.
Don't ask those mechanics questions about gear oil.
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Alan Brase
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2020 5:45 pm    Post subject: Re: Rebuilding transaxle with Samba help! 091/1 (fun starts pg 4) Reply with quote

Wow, Doug: you know how to take a vacation! Do your kids get involved with any part of this maintenance?
But really, any time spent with family is a blessing and good to help your daughter to the next stage of her life.
Old Man: Looking good on the magnet, at last! Seriously, I'd be pouring that low mile stuff thru coffee filters back into bottles. No really good way to recycle it that is easy.
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Projects: 67 sunroof bug, 67 Porsche 912 Targa, 70 Westy
Dec 1955 Single Cab pickup WANT 15" BUS RIMS dated 8/55, thru 12/55
To New owners: 1969 doublecab, 1971 Dormobile
Vanagons:
80 P27 Westy JUL 1979, 3rd oldest known US
83 1.6TD Vanagon, 87 Wolfie Westy daily driver, swap meet home
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2020 6:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Rebuilding transaxle with Samba help! 091/1 (fun starts pg 4) Reply with quote

Alan Brase wrote:
No really good way to recycle it that is easy.


Gravity is easier if you have the time (3 months) and the space to set gallon jugs.
And its 100%.
If you filtered the oil with coffee filters then had to store it 3 months you would be in the same place.

And the final step of decanting the purified oil off, leaving the sediment (steel & brass) on the bottom is still there, so why bother with the filter?

“Moving” during this time could add difficulty.
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'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb
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old_man
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2020 6:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Rebuilding transaxle with Samba help! 091/1 (fun starts pg 4) Reply with quote

Sodo wrote:
Alan Brase wrote:
No really good way to recycle it that is easy.


Gravity is easier if you have the time (3 months) and the space to set gallon jugs.
And its 100%.
If you filtered the oil with coffee filters then had to store it 3 months you would be in the same place.

And the final step of decanting the purified oil off, leaving the sediment (steel & brass) on the bottom is still there, so why bother with the filter?

“Moving” during this time could add difficulty.



I might consider that with the more expensive synthetic stuff but not this. It's $72 CAD for 20L. That's $54 US. That's $11/oil change. I get exactly 4 oil changes per pail.

Right now I take the old stuff in to get recycled. I don't really have any other use for it. I suppose I could spray the underside of vehicles with it but 1) there's better stuff and 2) it will wash off too easily and end up in the ground water. I know some people have waste oil heaters but I don't think I will bother with that.

Moving sucks for a variety of reasons. One of them is the movers won't take liquids. All the chemicals I own must be transported by me. It adds up to a lot.
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IdahoDoug
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2020 7:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Rebuilding transaxle with Samba help! 091/1 (fun starts pg 4) Reply with quote

Alan,

Yes, I've had them help with a few things, but I have so many vehicles that I love to work on, it's tough to bring them in when I'm trying to finish so I can go spend time with THEM. Heh. However I have logs on all my vehicles and you will find notes in there when I had one of them helping me with things. They're a bit of a journal as I even document "cleaned and lubricated sunroof track" and the like.

The proof's in the pudding as to Tom's lube comments and my experience. I took my family out into deep woods today in a 27 year old vehicle with nearly a quarter million miles on it. We parked it several miles from pavement on the Continental Divide, and climbed a snowy mountain. Later on the way home, I drove it across a runoff swollen creek with the differentials all locked to go way down a dirt trail and look for likely summer camping spots without even a thought of anything breaking. We got to see a moose from 30 feet in it and ran across a predator killed deer as reminders we were in the backcountry. Oddly, I feel slightly like my cars are horses and believe in the addage "If you take care of them, they'll take care of you". It's a slight sickness but I guess it keeps me passionate about maintenance, and in turn about life in general.

Whew - that got philosophical. So, change your gear oil (and all oils)!
_________________
1987 2WD Wolfsburg Vanagon Weekender "Mango", two fully locked 80 Series LandCruisers. 2017 Subaru Outback boxer. 1990 Audi 90 Quattro 20V with rear locking differential, 1990 burgundy parts Vanagon. 1984 Porsche 944, 1988 Toyota Supra 5 speed targa, 2002 BMW 325iX, 1982 Toyota Sunrader
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old_man
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2020 1:19 pm    Post subject: Re: Rebuilding transaxle with Samba help! 091/1 (fun starts pg 4) Reply with quote

So hopefully my final update. I swapped out that cheapo fluid for something synthetic. Nothing significant or noteworthy on the magnet.

My reasoning for synthetic is that I wanted something that would work in the colder weather. I decided on Red Line 75W90NS. My choice was because 1) It's easy to get local, 2) It was I use in my other transaxles so it's one less thing to stock, 3) It has the words 'transaxles that need hypoid-protection and smooth shifting', works for me.

What I found changing from fresh 80W90 conventional to equally fresh synthetic 75W90 is my problems shifting into second gear when first starting have largly gone. This was expected. I would not attribute this to the brand of fluid I used but rather just the synthetic grade.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 28, 2020 10:26 am    Post subject: Re: Rebuilding transaxle with Samba help! 091/1 (fun starts pg 4) Reply with quote

So, Old-Man, how's things going with the home-rebuilt transmission?

I saw that I posted early on in this Thread but seems notifications were not sent to my email address. So, I apparently forgot about it.

Anyway, I finally got the 4:13 from Weddle after almost a year wait. I was searching for those specialty tools to measure pinion depth, etc., and this Thread came up. Actually, I had planned to "make" those tools. But, it appears the paint method is the DIY go to for sure. My 4.13 shows a slight "wear" pattern on the teeth in the center section of the Ring Gear on both sides which I assume was the tech finding the quiet spot at the factory!

The 1980 DK I built over 84k miles ago and put in service in 8/2012 has always had a whine in 3rd and 4th (upgrade gears). So, even though I know there is a worn spot on one Pinion Tooth, it will be interesting to see what's been going on. I did do numerous break-in oil changes early on. I've been running synthetic for the last 20k miles or more!

Thanks in advance for an update!
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old_man
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 28, 2020 10:42 am    Post subject: Re: Rebuilding transaxle with Samba help! 091/1 (fun starts pg 4) Reply with quote

Hey,

So far it's working fine. Haven't changed the oil in a while so I don't know if there is death on the magnet. I pulled my type 3 with my Vanagon about 1000km this summer and nothing broke. Even did hills with it.

Just 2 days ago I had something funny happen. I was on the highway, first time in a long time, and if I pinned it in 4th a shutter developed. Almost like I was driving over the rumble/sleeper strips but not as intense. As soon as i let off the throttle it was fine. Doesn't do it in 3rd. It was only when I pressed extra hard on the throttle and the boost jumps from 12psi to 17psi. Slight step in resistance is felt on the pedal at that point as well as a audible change in engine tone, almost like an automatic dropping a gear when you step on it.

I'm hoping it's not transmission related. I'm think/hoping it's wastegate/turbo related. Other than that it's fne. I am puzzled by it though.

To answer your question, my gear had a bit of paint on it from the factory as well.
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Alan Brase
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 28, 2020 11:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Rebuilding transaxle with Samba help! 091/1 (fun starts pg 4) Reply with quote

You don't suppose it is the clutch slipping? that would shudder and occur more likely in higher gear than lower gear.
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Projects: 67 sunroof bug, 67 Porsche 912 Targa, 70 Westy
Dec 1955 Single Cab pickup WANT 15" BUS RIMS dated 8/55, thru 12/55
To New owners: 1969 doublecab, 1971 Dormobile
Vanagons:
80 P27 Westy JUL 1979, 3rd oldest known US
83 1.6TD Vanagon, 87 Wolfie Westy daily driver, swap meet home
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 29, 2020 5:38 am    Post subject: Re: Rebuilding transaxle with Samba help! 091/1 (fun starts pg 4) Reply with quote

Alan Brase wrote:
You don't suppose it is the clutch slipping? that would shudder and occur more likely in higher gear than lower gear.


I honestly don't think so. It's possible, I've never experienced a slipping clutch with a Dual Mass Flywheel.

The only time I experienced a slipping gear was in a normal flywheel car. All it did was rev like crazy.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2021 12:51 pm    Post subject: Re: Rebuilding transaxle with Samba help! 091/1 (fun starts pg 4) Reply with quote

Update.

I was in another city getting a root canal done when all of a sudden I had difficulty shifting it was making some weird noises as well. This was on a moderately warm drive train. It only did this shortly and it just went away.

On km 250 of my 350km ride home 4th gear just disapeared and was replaced by some awful, expensive sounding, grinding noises. I pulled over. I got get it to advance in 1st, 2nd, 3rd, but not 4th or R. I shut it down and got a tow home. As the driver is pulling it onto the flat deck it was making noises in neutral.

Coasting it into my garage it made noises if I did it in neutral but not if I had the clutch to the floor.

Exploratory surgery starts tomorrow. My only hope is that the R&P isn't damaged but at this point I think there is a good possibility there is nothing salvageable in that transmission. Only thing on my mind is did I assemble it incorrectly or was this just bad luck. Either way, I think if I had gotten a pro to do it I would not be here right now.

TL;DR: Transmission grenaded on the way home from a root canal.
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erste
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2021 1:32 pm    Post subject: Re: Rebuilding transaxle with Samba help! 091/1 (fun starts pg 4) Reply with quote

I'm really sorry to hear that...
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2021 3:06 pm    Post subject: Re: Rebuilding transaxle with Samba help! 091/1 (fun starts pg 4) Reply with quote

Sounds like the teeth were sheared off of one or both 4th gear set. Used gears could do that, no fault to you. A new gear set, I’d suspect the gear hardness. It’s hard to assemble one wrong and have it work at all. Experience gets expensive, but even the pros will reuse gear sets to keep some of the cost down.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2021 3:27 pm    Post subject: Re: Rebuilding transaxle with Samba help! 091/1 (fun starts pg 4) Reply with quote

MarkWard wrote:
Sounds like the teeth were sheared off of one or both 4th gear set. Used gears could do that, no fault to you. A new gear set, I’d suspect the gear hardness. It’s hard to assemble one wrong and have it work at all. Experience gets expensive, but even the pros will reuse gear sets to keep some of the cost down.


Honestly, that's what it felt like. Do you think the rest of the transmission (-bearings) is salvageable? When I reached underneath to see what was up the case was almost too hot to keep my hand on.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2021 3:54 pm    Post subject: Re: Rebuilding transaxle with Samba help! 091/1 (fun starts pg 4) Reply with quote

Yikes that sucks.
A Bluetooth snake camera can see 4th gear thru the oil filler hole.
Maybe a phone camera can peek in.
Put a tiny lightbulb inside the filler hole and maybe you can get a pic of 4th gear with your phone.

I suppose the drain magnet will tell some tales.
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'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2021 4:17 pm    Post subject: Re: Rebuilding transaxle with Samba help! 091/1 (fun starts pg 4) Reply with quote

If the Transmission has not been jumping out of 4th gear, I suspect teeth as Mark suggested.

So, why would teeth just strip off or begin the process of shearing off (based on your descriptions)? Either as Mark suggested, metal fatigue or the 4th gear bearing disintegrated allowing sloppy misalignment.

Either way, your trans will need to be completely disassembled, inspected and all the salvageable parts thoroughly cleaned, including the case, etc.

With 3rd gear being next door, gives thought that the front main shaft bearing could be the culprit. Of course, depending where it all started, other areas and bearings are likely affected.

Keep us updated!
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