Bodywork- gauge of sheet metal?

[CelestysWesty]

Big questions for big rust problems.

Hey everyone, finally doing the research to begin attacking the cancerous rust on my ‘86 Westfalia Vanagon.

For starters, does anyone recommend doing panel replacement with a gas less welder? Much cheaper to invest in one of these, but don’t want to buy a piece of crap that can’t handle the spot welds I’ll need to do to put the new panels in place.

Also voltage recommendations for the metal gauge size of the body on these Vanagon’s? What gauge metal is most of the body anyway?

Any great links or resources for removing panels and replacing would be most helpful!

Thanks in advance!

[hdenter]

WOW... In my book that's terminal cancer... Is there some sentimental connection to this specific van? From the questions you are asking it doesn't sound like you know a lot about body work and rust repair. Time is money and materials are money. Those would be much better spent on a van with a better body to work with. If the mechanicals on this van are in great shape either drive and camp as is(no need to worry about scrapes and dents on the trails) or buy a different van with a bad motor and transfer yours. A better project might be to purchase a cheap tin-top and swap the roof clip to make it a pop-top...

Hans
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'79 triple white convertible bug
'84 sunroof vanagon
'85 weekender

[MarkWard]

Wow, gasless mig requires flux wire. You need to chip as you go. Not worth it when you can add gas and weld as you go.

It appears that there were previous repairs. You are about to undertake a major project. I’d pass on one with much less rust. Search Ben’s Place. He’s got some of his rust projects in his gallery. Good luck.
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[Steve M.]

I do not know what your welding experience is and this is basically thin metal. The area around the water fill if you've never welded thin metal...practice and practice. It can warp out of shape and you cannot recover it back to flat.

You know what...
Sit down with a piece of paper and list every single rust spot as their own entity.
For each spot figure out how many hours it's going to take to repair/replace that spot. Not even going into the cost of materials.
Total up the cost of all the spots.

What is your hourly rate? If the salary your going to pay yourself to fix this Westy is close to buying another one with less rust...buy the other Westy!
What you would have is a spare mechanical parts van for the other Westy.
That's not a bad thing considering you have a complete wiring harness etc., etc.

If you see any bubbling of paint along a window rubber seal, 90% chance there is a hole under the seal.

This could be a task of gigantic proportions what your facing. With rust it really is just a can of worms.
If you have never done this before It might just be too much and I rather it not dampen your enthusiasm for the Westy's.
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This free advice is worth exactly what you paid for it.

There are seven days in a week. Someday is not one of them.

[MarkWard]

Something you might consider is taking an auto body class at a local trade school. Pick one spot and see it through with the help of an instructor. I did this when I was in my early 20s. I knew after that, that I was better suited to mechanical repairs.

Edit: or. https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=2356167

This one is in FL too. No affiliation.
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[4Gears4Tires]

My van was a similar level of rust. It's fixable. It just takes time, and money, and patience. And money. And more time. And more patience.

For how thin a lot of this metal is and for how much welding you're going to have to do, you probably want to go gas. There are different thicknesses of metal depending on where it is. For the panels, just buy whole replacement panels, for other areas, cut out the rusted area and go to home depot/lowes and check the thickness against what they have in stock.

That said, if you don't fully seam weld the panels, instead you just spot weld them every few inches and then cover everything with seam sealer, flux core mig will be ok. I've seen a few builds where they only glue in the panels too.

This is going to take you awhile. It's probably going to take you the better part of a year. Do you have a garage where you can cut the panels off and leave it like that for a bit?

I would save any spots, like the spot near the rear vent, that will have to be patched in for the end when you have gained experience.
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'87 Syncro
Ferric Oxyhydroxide Superleggera Edition

[CelestysWesty]

[CelestysWesty]

[MarkWard]

Safety First, Second, and Third. Life has a way of getting in the way of projects. If you want to use the van now, I would tackle one spot at a time. Primer is not a sealer, so a rattle can of paint will preserve your repairs as you go.

I would bet that with a new born and a full time job, if you strip the van down completely, it will take years to get it done. For every restored classic you see, there are 4 that have been put on the back burner. Good luck
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[Bulli Klinik]

Most exterior panels on a Vanagon are about 18 gauge. The bottom side, below the rockers, inner wheel wells are quite a bit thicker, 16-14 gauge. Replacement panels are generally 20 gauge.

I repaired a Florida Bus several years ago that wasn't quite as bad as yours, but close. It was a lot of work: https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipMcSOMXPLYDKr...d2ay1kN1B3

I can tend to be optimistic and ambitious about projects but I don't think I'd want to dig into yours. What you see on the surface is the tip of the iceberg. With rust that advanced, every panel is going to have to come apart. Your Bus would be well over 10K in metal repairs at my shop.

I have an 83 Westy for sale in the classified right now which caught fire but the body is in pretty good condition. A little rust in the common spots but far cleaner than what you're trying to work with. Original owner Bus with 60K miles for less than a grand. You would literally be years ahead starting with something cleaner.

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=2327880
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I've never met a Bus I didn't like.
Mike K
Bulli Klinik
Colorado Springs

[Bulli Klinik]

In response to the type of welder you should buy, flux-core welders can be used for bodywork but they are far from ideal.

MIG with an argon mix is generally what's used by VW restorers. The down side is that they require a lot of grinding on hard welds and they will leave a build up on the backside of the weld which will make metal finishing nearly impossible. I generally only use MIG when I can't access the back of a weld.

TIG and Oxy-Acetylene are preferable to use in sections that can be accessed from the backside to properly metal finish the panel. Panel fitment is critical and the weld is done with very little to no filler rod. Basically a fusion weld.

Example:
Fit patch, scribe and cut:

Tacked:

Welded with very little filler rod:

Then bumped, filed and finished:

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I've never met a Bus I didn't like.
Mike K
Bulli Klinik
Colorado Springs

[CelestysWesty]

[ledogboy]

Yes, MIG will be wildly easier and you are indeed making extra work for yourself. If you are going to go for this project, I would encourage you to make the jump!
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1986 Westy Weekender
Now a full camper
1.8t Syncro conversion
Some people call him Maurice...

[4Gears4Tires]

A cheap flux core welder is certainly making your work harder. Gas is a huge improvement. Doing tack welds and coating with seam sealer is completely acceptable. That's how car frames are put together in the factory. However, this method will not work on your D pillar near the rear vent. Don't forget to grind back your welds, just be careful to not go crazy because you can really thin the metal out.

Bulli, that is beautiful work.
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'87 Syncro
Ferric Oxyhydroxide Superleggera Edition

[CelestysWesty]

Hey everybody,

Thanks for the input.

Got myself a decent deal on a mig welder, pawn shop style, and it works!

Some further questions about the rear wheel arch-

I just cut off the badly rusted arch, and intend to weld on the larger wheel arch panel purchased from bus depot.

However, As I started cutting, I didn’t really see an under structure that would sustain the new panel ( maybe it was so badly rusted that it longer exists...?)

As I get ready to cut according to the new piece, 2 questions-
1) how do I accurately cut the section to create a perfect fit for the new section?

2) Is there an under structure that I need to be aware of. As in, drill and cut out spot welds according to the new panel?

Consult Samba twice, cut once!

Thanks all!

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'86 Westy (Canadian model)
Now she lives in Miami, teaching her about Sunshine.
Trying to remedy the rust of her past.

[The Carrot]

Mornin’

I’m no metal worker, but I have a couple of T3’s

If you are thinking of just attaching the wheel arch from that new panel, then you are going to have to fabricate a flange on the inner edge and spot weld it on. You need to consider how the Van was assembled at the factory. The wheel arch and wheel well were installed as one piece before the outer side panel. You would need pro skills like the poster above bulli klinik. Or watch what this guy is doing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqtnj5bZxzg

Download this free copy of the VW body manual from the samba:

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/manuals/vanagon_repair/Vanagon%20Body%20Repair%20Manual.pdf
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1990 Orly Blue Carat

[ledogboy]

I had to repair this area on the passenger side of my van recently. I decided it was easier to replace the entire quarter panel (https://www.vancafe.com/9557531-p/9557531.htm) following Ben’s helpful write-up:

http://www.benplace.com/panel1.htm

I had never done body work before this summer and I am very pleased with how it turned out.
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1986 Westy Weekender
Now a full camper
1.8t Syncro conversion
Some people call him Maurice...

[CelestysWesty]

[CelestysWesty]

[Bulli Klinik]

Personally, I don't care for the style of repair panel you are attempting to fit. The rear fender panel is available with the correct flanges from Bus Depot. Be prepared to rebuild the flange area as well as the area above it.

I truly believe that those repair panels without the flanges are meant to rivet over rusty bodies on Vanagons in third world countries, not for a proper restoration.

If you look closely through this photo album: https://photos.app.goo.gl/eLZ4bvP2MSh8KN1u7
Most of your questions will be answered.

Good luck!
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I've never met a Bus I didn't like.
Mike K
Bulli Klinik
Colorado Springs