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Dropping from subframe on 412
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greggearhead
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2020 9:15 am    Post subject: Dropping from subframe on 412 Reply with quote

Any tips/tricks or things to look out for when dropping the front subframe on a 412? I need to replace the fuel filler hoses so have to drop it. While out I need to look at the hubs/wheel bearings because of a wobble too, so good time to do it.

Thanks.
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2020 11:53 am    Post subject: Re: Dropping from subframe on 412 Reply with quote

greggearhead wrote:
Any tips/tricks or things to look out for when dropping the front subframe on a 412? I need to replace the fuel filler hoses so have to drop it. While out I need to look at the hubs/wheel bearings because of a wobble too, so good time to do it.

Thanks.


Which hoses?

You mean the large diameter one coming from the gas cap....the gas filler hose?

No...you do not need to drop the subframe. That is accessible from the right fender well. Yes...its tight fit and you will do some cursing.....but I have changed the filler neck hose twice without having to remove more than the wheel....and....if memory serves....the idler arm bracket

Now...if you want to clean out the gas tank...and make it easier to reach and replace the vent hoses....which have access ports under the carpet on the deck (and those are a pain similar to the filler neck...you need hands like a 3 year old)....then yes you "could" remove the subframe.

Bear in mind...if you look closely ...its not really much easier to reach the clamp connection to the gas tank with the suspension out of the way though having the idler bracket out of the way helps.

Put the car on stands and take off both front wheels. You MUST do this because we are not taking out the struts....and you do not want excess weight hanging on the mounts. If you cannot get around the right side strut easily....when all else is off its three nuts to pull the strut out.

The easiest way.....simplest...not quite easy.....is to

1. Unbolt the swaybar outer links from the control arms.

2. swing the sway bar forward on its chassis mounts

3. Unbolt the three bolts from each ball joint...leave the ball joints in the arms.

4. Disconnect the centerlink from the idler arm and the pitman arm. You will need a pickle fork. 90% of the time you will find that your centerlink is actually shot. Replace it or rebuild it....see my how to for that.
In fact.....you will usually find your idler bushing is shot....its defective as the factory made it anyway. Buy the bronze bushing (same price) and replace it while you are here.

5. Disconnect the steering damper from the subframe...single bolt.

6. The subframe is fairly light by itself...like 25-30 lbs max. The control arms are about
15 lbs each. You are looking at about 55 lbs of metal. Put a stack of wood blocks or cinder blocks or a jack up to within an inch or two of the subframe.

Mark where the subframe is from side to side with relation to the body. This is your castor split adjustment so do not forget.

Remove the rear bolt.....then the two side bolts. The subframe will drop down and then you can lower it out of the way.

CAUTION!!!!!

IF ANY OF THESE THREE BOLTS ACT LIKE THEY ARE RUSTED OR FREEZING UP....STOP!

All three of these bolts are screwing into captive nuts that slide in grooves within the chassis to affect alignment. These nuts are inaccessible. If you strip one out.....you are SCREWED. Yes there is a fix but you need to be crafty.

On the side nuts...if they are semi-frozen....look inside of the fender well....just parallel with where the bolt is. There is a hump of sorts. Drill a small hole in that sheet metal and spray penetrating oil in. Same for the rear. You can plug these holes with seam sealer and undercoat and they will never be a problem.

If you break off bolt on either of the front two sides......the crafty thing...is to take a dremel and cut a slot in that hump.....to see the flanged nut inside. Make the hole large enough....pull out the nut and bolt remnant....get a large metric or SAE grade 8 flanged nut...and with a grinder and files....replicate the tongue on the bottom of the new nut. You do not have to do this but it helps.

Slip the nut in...use a ton of anti-seize on everything.....and then tack weld a small flat, sheet metal cover over the hole and undercoat it. I have done this.

I am not sure how to do the one in the rear because I have never had to do it.

If you are pulling the subframe....in my opinion and experience....do it all.

Control arm bushings...new boots for teh ball joints from how racing, gaskets for teh ball joints, grease fittings for ball joints, new control arm bushings, new or rebuilt centerlink, centering rings on the radius arms, clean the gas tank, new vent and filler hoses and new bronze idler bushing.

Bronze idler arm bushing information:

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=607049&highlight=idler+arm

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=621850&highlight=idler+arm

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=618853&highlight=idler+bushing

Steering dampener information (good mod)

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=656691&highlight

Gas flap while you are at it:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=656055&highlight

Gas tank filler neck components:

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=645335&highlight

Center link rebuild:

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=628219&highlight

There are more links somewhere. I have photos of making all of the control arm bushings and doing the alignment mods for castor and camber on the subframe and refurbishing the subframe and gas tank ...just cannot remember if I did write ups yet.
Ray

Ray
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KTPhil
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2020 11:59 am    Post subject: Re: Dropping from subframe on 412 Reply with quote

If it's like the Types 1 & 3, the actual sealing of the thick stiff hose is done by thin "wrist bands" fitted at the ends inside the big hose. It's tricky to get the big hoses to slide over the bands without tearing or folding them, leading to leaks. I used "spa lube" but any rubber-safe lube gel should work.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2020 1:49 pm    Post subject: Re: Dropping from subframe on 412 Reply with quote

KTPhil wrote:
If it's like the Types 1 & 3, the actual sealing of the thick stiff hose is done by thin "wrist bands" fitted at the ends inside the big hose. It's tricky to get the big hoses to slide over the bands without tearing or folding them, leading to leaks. I used "spa lube" but any rubber-safe lube gel should work.


Nope....doesn't have those...oddly...and seems to seal just fine. Ray
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2020 2:06 pm    Post subject: Re: Dropping from subframe on 412 Reply with quote

That's an improvement. Maybe the big hose has an inner liner built-in?
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2020 2:38 pm    Post subject: Re: Dropping from subframe on 412 Reply with quote

KTPhil wrote:
That's an improvement. Maybe the big hose has an inner liner built-in?


No. Its just a hose. Same material as type 1 and 3. It probably is due to the shape of the nipple on the tank and maybe a better clamp.

I have not yet seen any viable reason for the liner sleeve on type 3.

The hose has no pressure. As long as its the right material....why would it be leaking?

The only thing I can think of is that is the hose on the type 3 tank puts it in a strain or had excessive vibration....it may weaken the joint and cause links. Ray
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Lars S
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 11, 2020 11:19 am    Post subject: Re: Dropping from subframe on 412 Reply with quote

Maybe I have missed something here, excuse me if so, but there is a round service panel in the front luggage under the carpet just above where the big hose attaches to the fuel tank.
Just changed my hose all the way from the filler cap to the tank...no need to do anything from under the car.
Pls se no 11 in this diagram:

https://www.volkswagen-classic-parts.de/catalogues/Typ4/html5.html#/250

/Öars S
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 11, 2020 12:48 pm    Post subject: Re: Dropping from subframe on 412 Reply with quote

raygreenwood wrote:
I have not yet seen any viable reason for the liner sleeve on type 3.

The hose has no pressure. As long as its the right material....why would it be leaking?


On the Type 3, the lower clamp is fully immersed when the tank is full. Not sure about the type 4.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 11, 2020 2:24 pm    Post subject: Re: Dropping from subframe on 412 Reply with quote

Lars S wrote:
Maybe I have missed something here, excuse me if so, but there is a round service panel in the front luggage under the carpet just above where the big hose attaches to the fuel tank.
Just changed my hose all the way from the filler cap to the tank...no need to do anything from under the car.
Pls se no 11 in this diagram:

https://www.volkswagen-classic-parts.de/catalogues/Typ4/html5.html#/250

/Öars S


The round panel your diagram shows....on my car...and all of the US cars that I have worked on...is only 3" in diameter. It allows access to the tank vent line connection.

On my car virtually all of the gas cap to tank is under the fender. I will see if I can get pictures in the next day or so.

KTOhil....if you look at the pictures of the 411/412 gas tan in the link to filler neck components I posted above...you can see the fuel sender unit (same as type 3 almost) and the filler neck connection in the upper right. In the 411/412 car the filler neck nipple is in the upper 1/10th of the tank. Ray
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 11, 2020 10:51 pm    Post subject: Re: Dropping from subframe on 412 Reply with quote

raygreenwood wrote:

The round panel your diagram shows....on my car...and all of the US cars that I have worked on...is only 3" in diameter. It allows access to the tank vent line connection.

..... Ray



Im not at my car for some days so I can not take any measurements or pictures at the moment ... dont remember the size of the hole but I had no problems in fitting the hose to the tank with one hand...of course with some fiddeling...however my hands are quite small.

The tubing under the fender on my car is a steel tube which reaches from the fuel cap just into the body where it by a hose connects to the J-steel tube which in turn connects to a short hose and than the tank inlet. Just like the picture below. So to change the hoses one has to work from under the fender and through the upper service hole.

The service hole is visible on this image just under the "c".

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

/Lars S
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2020 7:28 am    Post subject: Re: Dropping from subframe on 412 Reply with quote

Lars S wrote:
raygreenwood wrote:

The round panel your diagram shows....on my car...and all of the US cars that I have worked on...is only 3" in diameter. It allows access to the tank vent line connection.

..... Ray



Im not at my car for some days so I can not take any measurements or pictures at the moment ... dont remember the size of the hole but I had no problems in fitting the hose to the tank with one hand...of course with some fiddeling...however my hands are quite small.

The tubing under the fender on my car is a steel tube which reaches from the fuel cap just into the body where it by a hose connects to the J-steel tube which in turn connects to a short hose and than the tank inlet. Just like the picture below. So to change the hoses one has to work from under the fender and through the upper service hole.

The service hole is visible on this image just under the "c".

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

/Lars S


Laughing
This is what I love about,these cars......no matter how long you work on them....you always learn something new!

So the only two times I have had the filler neck hose off of my car.....once to replace all but (oddly)....the short tank connector piece....I simply went through either the 3" hole up near the fire wall with a screwdriver to push the clamp around.....but for the most part the clamp was angled to access from below.

Other than being a bit fiddly and tedious.....it was not that big of a deal.

However....I have never even had the trunk liner pulled down and exposed that far in my car or anything ai have worked on. Rolling Eyes Laughing ......yes......went out this morning and pulled back the trunk liner......and there it is!!!!.....access plate!.....just as Lars described!......and.....I have spent hours under this car with the tandlk out...grinding away under coating.....and somehow missed noting this lid from below!

Learn something every day! Thank you Lars!

Very Happy
Ray
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2020 10:00 am    Post subject: Re: Dropping from subframe on 412 Reply with quote

raygreenwood wrote:

...
Learn something every day! Thank you Lars!

Very Happy
Ray


Its my pleasure Ray!
Do I get the Nobel price for this discovery? probably not - your satisfaction is enough!


/Lars S
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2020 10:42 am    Post subject: Re: Dropping from subframe on 412 Reply with quote

Lars S wrote:
raygreenwood wrote:

...
Learn something every day! Thank you Lars!

Very Happy
Ray


Its my pleasure Ray!
Do I get the Nobel price for this discovery? probably not - your satisfaction is enough!


/Lars S


The noble prize of type 4!...what would that award look like?

The crazy thing is that LARGE access plate would have REALLY helped a bit in replacing the vent lines. That miserable little 3" pop out plate just aft of the large access plate.....is not ideal for working on the vent lines. The vent lines I have found actually need to be replaced far more often than the gas tank filler hose.

Ray
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 15, 2020 10:31 am    Post subject: Re: Dropping from subframe on 412 Reply with quote

Alright!

Thanks for all the replies and info. Looks like I won't be dropping the subframe (yeah!) but I still need to pull the struts to have the custom bearing setup remachined a bit (BillK's old 412 with 944 hubs).

At least I can order the hoses and start pulling stuff now.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 16, 2020 7:19 am    Post subject: Re: Dropping from subframe on 412 Reply with quote

Just want to finish with some pics showing the acess plate IRL Smile

///Lars S

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 16, 2020 7:53 am    Post subject: Re: Dropping from subframe on 412 Reply with quote

Thanks Wally!
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 16, 2020 7:56 am    Post subject: Re: Dropping from subframe on 412 Reply with quote

Cool!

Ray
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 19, 2020 6:04 pm    Post subject: Re: Dropping from subframe on 412 Reply with quote

Well, my 412 has a different fuel filler setup than any of the pics I've seen online, so thought I would share.

It has a long metal piece and one short hose to the tank. There is a long accordion section that allows for a fair amoutn of flex. Looks all factory.

I tried to replace the old hose by putting it on the long piece and feeding it down onto the tank section, but I just couldn't get it to start, so put it on the tank and fed the long piece into it. Still was a bitch, but did go on.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 19, 2020 8:15 pm    Post subject: Re: Dropping from subframe on 412 Reply with quote

The metal parts are normal. This one is factory right before I stripped it apart.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Here are the parts cleaned up and painted
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



Its all in this link...measurements of old hose sections and new ones.

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=645335&highlight

But...while thats not factory....I think its a pretty good solution as long as its viton rubber (seems to be holding up). I am betting thats a Bill K mod.

Have to dig back through his posts and see what it came from. The inner stub hose looks stock.

I am wondering....maybe a rack and pinion inner joint bellows? It would be teh right material.

Cool! Ray
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 26, 2020 8:23 am    Post subject: Re: Dropping from subframe on 412 Reply with quote

It's actually metal bellows - and looked to be soldered to the metal tubing. That's why I suspected it is factory. No supporting info, but didn't look home done or anything, and the hose was so bad, I don't think it was new enough for Bill K to have done. Not sure, though.
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