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Loss of all Automatic Gear Function: FIXED!
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jlrftype7
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 14, 2020 8:02 am    Post subject: Loss of all Automatic Gear Function: FIXED! Reply with quote

Well, we just got stranded in Springfield MO this morning .
Moved the Vanagon from our hotel to a stop at Walgreen’s. Nothing appeared wrong at this point.
On restart, nothing, no gear engagement. Engine is not being pulled down by trans, so I thought, oh no, we lost our Flex Plate? Or something else...
Removed the hatch, started the engine, Torque Converter is turning with the engine .
Got under the Vanagon, shift cable and new circlip are still there , with lever moving with correct gear selection like normal.
Checked trans fluid with engine running, correct level and nice color and condition, so our GoWesty cooler has been doing its job on this long trip.

So, did I lose the D/R clutch with no warning, oil pump shaft broke?
Even in 1, I have nothing.
I actually have the tools to drop the pan and valve body with us, along with a sealable oil/fluid drain pan, so if push came to shove, I could investigate further.
We’re more of the mindset to get a rental vehicle , transfer our load, and have the Vanagon flatbedded to my work while we continue home with the rental vehicle .
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'67 Type 3 Fastback, my 2nd car- gone
'69 Semi-Auto Stick Shift Beetle-gone
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Butcher
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 14, 2020 8:21 am    Post subject: Re: Loss of all Automatic Gear Function Reply with quote

That's what I would do. You've done the basics.
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MarkWard
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 14, 2020 8:56 am    Post subject: Re: Loss of all Automatic Gear Function Reply with quote

Did you watch the CV shafts? A broken CV and you won't move. Also, a disconnected CV in case the bolts weren't properly torqued last time the joints were serviced.
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BulliBill
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 14, 2020 9:28 am    Post subject: Re: Loss of all Automatic Gear Function Reply with quote

Bummer! I'm no expert in auto transmissions (but I own one in my '87 Westy) so I'm both interested in and baffled by your symptoms. I hope that you get her rolling again, and I assume you are headed from Springfield, MO back up I-44 thru St. Louis to Chicago? I'm in a western burb of STL if you're passing and get into more trouble. Hopefully you'll sort it out and get your Vanagon back home just fine...

Bill Bowman
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jlrftype7
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 14, 2020 9:31 am    Post subject: Re: Loss of all Automatic Gear Function Reply with quote

MarkWard wrote:
Did you watch the CV shafts? A broken CV and you won't move. Also, a disconnected CV in case the bolts weren't properly torqued last time the joints were serviced.

Ah, forgot about the CV /loss of drive issue. I doubt that’s it though since the trans won’t load the engine at all when a gear is engaged and your foot is still on the brake( that’s why I was worried about Flex Plate at first- we’re getting it towed, now raining pretty hard and cold too. Wife is at Enterprise getting a rental.
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'67 Type 3 Fastback, my 2nd car- gone
'69 Semi-Auto Stick Shift Beetle-gone
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‘84 Tin Top - Hilga....Auto
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blackglasspirate
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 14, 2020 2:23 pm    Post subject: Re: Loss of all Automatic Gear Function Reply with quote

I had something similar happen recently with my auto. Out of nowhere it did not want to engage and wasn't loading the engine at all no matter what gear the shifter was in. If I revved really high it would catch just enough to move it but not very well (not sure if you're experiencing that as well).

In the end it was a clogged pressure regulator valve in the valve body. It had just enough gunk in there (which wasn't much) to make it stick open.

Hopefully yours is that simple.
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jlrftype7
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 14, 2020 7:35 pm    Post subject: Re: Loss of all Automatic Gear Function Reply with quote

blackglasspirate wrote:
I had something similar happen recently with my auto. Out of nowhere it did not want to engage and wasn't loading the engine at all no matter what gear the shifter was in. If I revved really high it would catch just enough to move it but not very well (not sure if you're experiencing that as well).

In the end it was a clogged pressure regulator valve in the valve body. It had just enough gunk in there (which wasn't much) to make it stick open.

Hopefully yours is that simple.
. Thanks, I hope it’s that simple. Tow truck arrives later tonight at my work to drop off the Vanagon- I’ll drop the pan and valve body next week and try to figure it out.
It was the sudden loss that threw us- Moved one minute, then 20 min later after restart, nada.... Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes
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'68 Westy- my first VW and vehicle/Bus- long gone.- sold it to a traveling Swiss couple....
'67 Type 3 Fastback, my 2nd car- gone
'69 Semi-Auto Stick Shift Beetle-gone
2017 MINI Coopers, our current DDs
‘84 Tin Top - Hilga....Auto
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jlrftype7
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 16, 2020 11:11 am    Post subject: Re: Loss of all Automatic Gear Function Reply with quote

BulliBill wrote:
Bummer! I'm no expert in auto transmissions (but I own one in my '87 Westy) so I'm both interested in and baffled by your symptoms. I hope that you get her rolling again, and I assume you are headed from Springfield, MO back up I-44 thru St. Louis to Chicago? I'm in a western burb of STL if you're passing and get into more trouble. Hopefully you'll sort it out and get your Vanagon back home just fine...

Bill Bowman
We ended up getting it towed[ whoa Nelly, large bill on that one... Shocked ]
And moving almost all items over to the Dodge Minivan. The drive home was , ahem, much faster than it would have been in the Vanagon even when it was moving on its own power. BUT, our LED headlights in the Vanagon are actually nicer and brighter than the rental car was...
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'68 Westy- my first VW and vehicle/Bus- long gone.- sold it to a traveling Swiss couple....
'67 Type 3 Fastback, my 2nd car- gone
'69 Semi-Auto Stick Shift Beetle-gone
2017 MINI Coopers, our current DDs
‘84 Tin Top - Hilga....Auto
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edgood1
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2020 2:39 pm    Post subject: Re: Loss of all Automatic Gear Function Reply with quote

Sorry to hear about your troubles. I've dissected two vanagon automatic tranaxles with your described situation and both had serious internal problems. On one the oil pump drive gear broke into 3 pieces and on another the drive shaft somehow got stuck and stripped itself to uselessness. I hope it's not anything like that. Sad
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jlrftype7
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2020 5:34 pm    Post subject: Re: Loss of all Automatic Gear Function Reply with quote

edgood1 wrote:
Sorry to hear about your troubles. I've dissected two vanagon automatic tranaxles with your described situation and both had serious internal problems. On one the oil pump drive gear broke into 3 pieces and on another the drive shaft somehow got stuck and stripped itself to uselessness. I hope it's not anything like that. Sad

When you mentioned drive shaft, which one . Your Oil pump shaft or the Outer Turbine Shaft coming from the Torque Converter?
I’m hopeful that it’s a valve body issue since it powered itself quietly with no bad noises to the Parking Spot where we discovered the loss of all gears about 20 minutes later
Oil Pump snapping quietly I guess I could see happening , oil pump jamming , not sure.
Either way, I hope to drop the pan tomorrow and see what it looks like inside.
Oil pump shaft will be easy to check once the fluid fitting for the GoWesty Trans Cooler is removed off the nose of the trans since it’s visible through the threaded hole.
Then I’ll need to turn the engine by hand to see if the pump and shaft turn with it.
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'68 Westy- my first VW and vehicle/Bus- long gone.- sold it to a traveling Swiss couple....
'67 Type 3 Fastback, my 2nd car- gone
'69 Semi-Auto Stick Shift Beetle-gone
2017 MINI Coopers, our current DDs
‘84 Tin Top - Hilga....Auto
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MarkWard
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2020 5:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Loss of all Automatic Gear Function Reply with quote

Shameless plug I have a pump shaft with drive foot in the classifieds. I also have a turbine shaft listed. There is a pressure port for testing the automatic prior to disassembly covered in the Bentley manual. Easier to check prior to dropping the pan.
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jlrftype7
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2020 7:35 pm    Post subject: Re: Loss of all Automatic Gear Function Reply with quote

MarkWard wrote:
Shameless plug I have a pump shaft with drive foot in the classifieds. I also have a turbine shaft listed. There is a pressure port for testing the automatic prior to disassembly covered in the Bentley manual. Easier to check prior to dropping the pan.
Shhhh, I’ve been meaning to contact you about those parts.... ixnay on the partsa in public.... Wink
I actually bought a Trans Gauge set a few weeks ago, so this would be the time to break it out and test at the port.... Think Think
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'67 Type 3 Fastback, my 2nd car- gone
'69 Semi-Auto Stick Shift Beetle-gone
2017 MINI Coopers, our current DDs
‘84 Tin Top - Hilga....Auto
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pburkeame
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PostPosted: Fri May 01, 2020 10:39 pm    Post subject: Re: Loss of all Automatic Gear Function Reply with quote

I’m also experiencing Auto trans problems. I fixed an ongoing engine problem and I was out for a test run when all of a sudden the transmission started making a high pitched noise and then stopped working. After a 15 minute cool down it worked again. It did this 2 more times until I could it get it home.

I did have a stock cooler fail last fall. The coolant was contaminated, but the ATF was clean and continues to be clean. At the moment, I don’t have a cooler, just a length of hose from fitting to fitting.

Sounds like we have different problems. If I find anything I’ll pass it on.
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jlrftype7
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PostPosted: Sat May 02, 2020 6:10 am    Post subject: Re: Loss of all Automatic Gear Function Reply with quote

pburkeame wrote:
I’m also experiencing Auto trans problems. I fixed an ongoing engine problem and I was out for a test run when all of a sudden the transmission started making a high pitched noise and then stopped working. After a 15 minute cool down it worked again. It did this 2 more times until I could it get it home.

I did have a stock cooler fail last fall. The coolant was contaminated, but the ATF was clean and continues to be clean. At the moment, I don’t have a cooler, just a length of hose from fitting to fitting.

Sounds like we have different problems. If I find anything I’ll pass it on.
. My issue was shearing of the oil pump driveshaft probably due to needle bearing failure at the end of the oil pump.
Oil pump looks okay after disassembly and turns easily, but I have other things to repair and check while I have the transmission apart.
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'68 Westy- my first VW and vehicle/Bus- long gone.- sold it to a traveling Swiss couple....
'67 Type 3 Fastback, my 2nd car- gone
'69 Semi-Auto Stick Shift Beetle-gone
2017 MINI Coopers, our current DDs
‘84 Tin Top - Hilga....Auto
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jlrftype7
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2020 6:29 pm    Post subject: Re: Loss of all Automatic Gear Function- Repaired Reply with quote

A big thanks to MarkWard and Kourt for their help and encouragement with me repairing our Automatic Trans.
I bought an end plate for the oil pump from Porsche to repair the gouges in it.
I had a needle bearing fall apart , it sits at the end of the nose on the pump assembly, to support clutch assemblies mounted there.
I then had to drill and install a helicoil for one of the pump bolts . It neatly pulled out threads as I was hand tightening it using a 1/4” hand ratchet.
I also needed a Sprag Clutch assembly, the plastic ring on mine kept breaking the more I tried to reassemble it.

Kourt sent me a spare, so that fixed that issue. While all of this was going on, the Torque Converter seal started to leak when I was moving the Vanagon around the lot at work, limping on the weak spare transmission I originally had to begin with. So that meant more Van Cafe parts to order before I could drop the whole transaxle and swap out the now rebuilt 2nd transmission that I finished in my basement.

Today was the day, Transaxle came out, TC seal replaced, Rear Main Engine Seal replaced , and transmission swapped out from the rear of the Transaxle.
New Converter bolts courtesy of McMaster Carr, rounded out the parts list.
Happy to say that Hilga is back on the road with all 3 speeds working and no more leaks .
Long Saga is over.....
Now on to all the other I need to do to the Vanagon... Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes
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'68 Westy- my first VW and vehicle/Bus- long gone.- sold it to a traveling Swiss couple....
'67 Type 3 Fastback, my 2nd car- gone
'69 Semi-Auto Stick Shift Beetle-gone
2017 MINI Coopers, our current DDs
‘84 Tin Top - Hilga....Auto
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jlrftype7
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2020 6:32 pm    Post subject: Re: Loss of all Automatic Gear Function- Repaired Reply with quote

Can the mods change the title to reflect current status of this older post?
Thank you
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'67 Type 3 Fastback, my 2nd car- gone
'69 Semi-Auto Stick Shift Beetle-gone
2017 MINI Coopers, our current DDs
‘84 Tin Top - Hilga....Auto
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2020 8:50 am    Post subject: Re: Loss of all Automatic Gear Function: FIXED! Reply with quote

Great to hear! Congratulations on a job well done.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2020 9:01 am    Post subject: Re: Loss of all Automatic Gear Function: FIXED! Reply with quote

I was wondering? Did you by any chance trace the fluid path of the cooler when you had the pump out of the case? Mark
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jlrftype7
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2020 9:28 am    Post subject: Re: Loss of all Automatic Gear Function: FIXED! Reply with quote

MarkWard wrote:
I was wondering? Did you by any chance trace the fluid path of the cooler when you had the pump out of the case? Mark

Upper port does appear to be feed back/return into the pump due to where the case hole lines up with the pump gears.
I’ll take a picture of the old Pump backing/face plate and post it , the wear marks on the plate from the pump, and where that upper hole and plate align will be good info for all of us.
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'67 Type 3 Fastback, my 2nd car- gone
'69 Semi-Auto Stick Shift Beetle-gone
2017 MINI Coopers, our current DDs
‘84 Tin Top - Hilga....Auto
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jlrftype7
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2020 7:23 pm    Post subject: Re: Loss of all Automatic Gear Function: FIXED! Reply with quote

Here you go Mark, the upper hole /cooler port is the return, as there is no way to build pressure with the gaping hole in the cover plate, and the fact that your driveshaft and drive button or ‘flower’ piece that is splined to the driveshaft are sitting out in the open, behind that big hole.
Pressure can only come out the bottom /port hole, I’m adding a few pictures. And yes, my cover plate was pretty messed up.... Razz Embarassed
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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'68 Westy- my first VW and vehicle/Bus- long gone.- sold it to a traveling Swiss couple....
'67 Type 3 Fastback, my 2nd car- gone
'69 Semi-Auto Stick Shift Beetle-gone
2017 MINI Coopers, our current DDs
‘84 Tin Top - Hilga....Auto
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