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412 Front Spoiler or Air Dam
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greggearhead
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 16, 2020 9:08 am    Post subject: 412 Front Spoiler or Air Dam Reply with quote

Wondering what people have used/adapted for a front air dam? Not looking for radical, just something to help keep the air out from underneath and for a little period sport aesthetic.
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hulken
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2020 2:37 am    Post subject: Re: 412 Front Spoiler or Air Dam Reply with quote

Look up "Sander Hogenberg" on Facebook, he has an orange 412 stationwagon with a Kamei air dam.
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2020 7:47 am    Post subject: Re: 412 Front Spoiler or Air Dam Reply with quote

Also.....while working on the front end.....putting in the Audi strut mod with far better rebound control and the ability to at a minimum lower the nose-high front end to dead level with the rear already helps very slightly with static castor angle.

While working on the struts if you add in the castor adjustment mod (most important) and camber adjustments (a bonus because adding in enough castor does tweak the camber)......along with the better control and level nose mentioned above.....the castor adjustment pretty much gets rid of the need to worry about front end lifting and cross wind handling with these cars.

Thats the problem(s) with these cars handling wise. They have a very nice ride. They handle "pretty well" for their era. But.....they need as stated.....MUCH better rebound control in the front end. The stock oil shocks and even the aftermarket KYB, Boge and Monroe oil shocks....on rough pavement with a little wear.....had a tendency to start "jacking up".

Meaning....when the frequency of humps and bumps on the road.... plus your speed across it were enough.....the poor rebound valving allowed the oil to return to the underside of the piston too soon. The very strong strut spring....would slightly keep the strut rod jacked up....while the rear shocks were slowly jacking down.

Nose high position made worse.

And....add to that....good "rate" of rear sway bar on sedans.....just could use a little more of it.......and to add to the insanity Laughing .......the sedans had the help of the rear sway bars.....and for some crazy reason the wagons did not get them.

And yet....the wagons got gas assisted rear shocks from the factory....but the sedans got oil shocks Rolling Eyes . The sedans need both sway bars and gas shocks. The wagons need both sway bars and gas shocks. Neither got both from the factory.

The gas shocks at rear help keep it from "jacking down" on rough pavement....helping keep it level from front to rear and making the nose high stance less prominent.

The nose high stance.....is kind of an accident of design. The car has a massive trunk yo carry a lot of luggage. The front struts were designed for long travel for this.....but they did not have an internal stop to prevent over extension causing the nose high issue.

Add to that....the cars barely had 1 of castor angle from the factory. This was just not enough. If you can get the nose down level.....you get about 1.5 static castor.

Still not enough. Just not haging enough castor angle....alone....makes these cars very susceptible to "floating" in cross winds. Add in the nose high and stock oil struts and shocks....and slightly excessive roll in the rear end.....if you live in someplace like Oklahoma with year round high winds and 70 mph highway speeds.....they can be a lane to lane handful to drive.

Just increasing castor to about 3....and adding ahout 125 to 150 lbs of gear on the trunk to get the front end down by about 1".....gets rid of about 50-60%% of this problem....no kidding!
Along with that going to better front strut strut and rear shock rebound control...improves that about another 20%.
Adding the second rear sway bar mod....or at least a single facyory swaybar yo the rear of the wagon.....along with better overall control of the front Audi strut valving.....makes these excellent handling cars.

You will find that the castor and sway bar alone pretty much gets rid of the wind wnadering and takes away from the need for an air dam. Ray

Add to this rear sway and
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greggearhead
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2020 7:55 am    Post subject: Re: 412 Front Spoiler or Air Dam Reply with quote

Ray - I have Bill K's old car, so more development on the suspension, brakes, engine and trans have been done than on almost any other 412.

DO you have an answer for my question?
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1973 Porsche 911T
1973 VW 412
1982 VW Caddy
1991 Vanagon
2002 Eurovan (Manual Swap)


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greggearhead
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2020 10:17 am    Post subject: Re: 412 Front Spoiler or Air Dam Reply with quote

hulken wrote:
Look up "Sander Hogenberg" on Facebook, he has an orange 412 stationwagon with a Kamei air dam.


I am aware of his 412 - it's awesome. However, doesn't help me find an uber rare Kamei front spoiler.

What I'm trying to figure out if there is something that is readily available and easily adaptable to the 412 front sheetmetal.

The VW Golf 1 (USA Rabbit) had a short and long duck-bill spoiler available that is now cheap and has been used on lots of other different vehicles. Because of the curve on the front of the 412, I don't think it would fit well.

I had a BMW 320i E21 that I shortened the USA bumpers on to improve the looks, and then used the filler panel from the front bumper (no longer needed because there was no space to fill) as a similar duck bill spoiler.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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1972 Porsche 911E
1973 Porsche 911T
1973 VW 412
1982 VW Caddy
1991 Vanagon
2002 Eurovan (Manual Swap)


Period Lights, VW & Porsche wheels and Recaro/Scheel Seats for sale

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http://greggearhead.com/soco-swap---september-vw-swap-meet.html
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hulken
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2020 12:54 pm    Post subject: Re: 412 Front Spoiler or Air Dam Reply with quote

Fiberglass Kamei replica is available. https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F233275728398

Could you use the Golf airdam and fill up the gap with fiberglass?
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greggearhead
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2020 12:57 pm    Post subject: Re: 412 Front Spoiler or Air Dam Reply with quote

hulken wrote:
Fiberglass Kamei replica is available. https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F233275728398

Could you use the Golf airdam and fill up the gap with fiberglass?


I didn't realize he used a Super Beetle spoiler?? Interesting.

Re: the Golf duckbill - It wouldn't be very easy to fill in the gaps using fiberglass, IMO. I may order one to try, and if it doesn't work, use it on my Caddy.
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1972 Porsche 911E
1973 Porsche 911T
1973 VW 412
1982 VW Caddy
1991 Vanagon
2002 Eurovan (Manual Swap)


Period Lights, VW & Porsche wheels and Recaro/Scheel Seats for sale

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hulken
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2020 3:34 pm    Post subject: Re: 412 Front Spoiler or Air Dam Reply with quote

I'm quite shure it's a type 1, don't think there was one made for type 4
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greggearhead
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2020 3:37 pm    Post subject: Re: 412 Front Spoiler or Air Dam Reply with quote

I also didn't realize those spoilers attach to the bumper, which would make it much easier, unless I remove the bumpers of course.
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1972 Porsche 911E
1973 Porsche 911T
1973 VW 412
1982 VW Caddy
1991 Vanagon
2002 Eurovan (Manual Swap)


Period Lights, VW & Porsche wheels and Recaro/Scheel Seats for sale

https://www.facebook.com/greggearhead

http://greggearhead.com/soco-swap---september-vw-swap-meet.html
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yellrhd
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2020 3:46 pm    Post subject: Re: 412 Front Spoiler or Air Dam Reply with quote

The type -1 Kamei would probably be the best start
I cant seem to find the pic now
but I did see one on a Type-3 squareback and there is ample material to allow for it to be trimmed down. I've used one I cut completely in half (lengthwise) on an old Toyota once
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KTPhil
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2020 3:58 pm    Post subject: Re: 412 Front Spoiler or Air Dam Reply with quote

Type 3 application pic in this thread:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=733166
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2020 9:29 pm    Post subject: Re: 412 Front Spoiler or Air Dam Reply with quote

greggearhead wrote:
Ray - I have Bill K's old car, so more development on the suspension, brakes, engine and trans have been done than on almost any other 412.

DO you have an answer for my question?



Laughing Doubtful that it has any more "development" than mine....and half of what is used in in his...the Audi strut mod..... which his uses along with different springs...came from my years of work.

My point was....other than looking cool...its doubtful that it will be helpful or necessary in the handling of the car

But to answer your question...no. Where to find something that essentially bolts on and actually fits...is tough as you know due to the width and the sheet metal curve.

Back when I still thought I "needed" an air dam to stop the float in crosswind....I thought about taking an original dealer air conditioning condenser shroud and modeling a sheet metal wrap on that....and welding it to the front splash pan. The fit and look would have been excellent....however...in order to work it really needs to stream the air from center to ends and around the outside of the front fenders.....and needed some forward rake.

And after finding out that the car was missing about 2.5* of castor from the factory (one of the reasons why the very, very late replacement ball joints had castor adjustment...part # 411 412 165 E in case you need to look for some)......I realized that it had no need for an air dam so I quit looking for one.

One of the closest looking ones I found that you might look at is the air dam for teh Saab 900....mid 80's. Not the one with the whole kit like the Saab turbo which required side fender flares to attache to....but the 900 S I believe. About the same width and close to the same shape.

By the way....if your type 4 does not yet have fore/aft castor adjustment added at the subframe....it not developed enough Wink

Ray
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