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Niels911SC Samba Member
Joined: March 03, 2013 Posts: 38 Location: Sweden
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Posted: Thu Mar 26, 2020 9:16 am Post subject: Ball joint comparison: Meyle, Lemförder, Moog, SKF and Heyd |
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A couple of years ago the ball joints in our bus were replaced with febi joints. This resulted in stiff steering that never really went away.
I couldn't find a good consensus online about what would be a better replacement (none, probably) so I bought a couple to compare.
(I have already pressed in the Lemförder):
Moog and SKF are impossible to move by hand and very hard to move even with a wrench. All the others are hard to move by hand, with the lightest movement on the Meyle and the Lemförder (but still not light).
I have a 30T press and the correct VW tools, so I got started.
Pressed out three of the old febis so far, and guess what: when removed from the arms they suddenly move smooth as butter??
Pressed the Lemförder into the first arm which needed a lot of force (10T) and now that one feels harder to move and turn then before.
Continued with the Meyle, pressed it in (went in smooth with less force, maybe 4T), still seems the same (not harder to move), but still heavy as it was to begin with.
What shall we do next? I think I'll press in some more and see what happens.
Is it safe to remove a ball joint again, or is it useless after putting pressure on the backside?
To be continued... |
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Niels911SC Samba Member
Joined: March 03, 2013 Posts: 38 Location: Sweden
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Posted: Thu Mar 26, 2020 9:41 am Post subject: Re: Ball joint comparison: Meyle, Lemförder, Moog, SKF and Heyd |
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Heyd also pressed in:
Feels a tad heavier but mostly similar to the pressed in Meyle. |
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Zed999 Samba Member
Joined: March 04, 2018 Posts: 1247 Location: UK
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Posted: Thu Mar 26, 2020 9:55 am Post subject: Re: Ball joint comparison: Meyle, Lemförder, Moog, SKF and Heyd |
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You could get some comparable numbers if you lock nuts on them and find out how much torque is required to start them turning like they would steering. That must be measurable, I could drive mine in a tight circle no hands.
Many thanks for doing this and posting your findings. |
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deezal Samba Member
Joined: February 21, 2008 Posts: 138 Location: pike county
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Posted: Thu Mar 26, 2020 7:44 pm Post subject: Re: Ball joint comparison: Meyle, Lemförder, Moog, SKF and Heyd |
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I had luck with the delphi tc134 after the febis and lemforders gave me grief. |
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heimlich VWNOS.com
Joined: November 20, 2016 Posts: 6609 Location: Houston, Texas
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Posted: Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:26 pm Post subject: Re: Ball joint comparison: Meyle, Lemförder, Moog, SKF and Heyd |
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Once you press in a ball joint that is it. You do not want to remove it and press it in again. I'm sure people have done it. Maybe what you could do is test this. Take it out and tell how much pressure it took to press the ball joint in the second time and compare it to the original numbers. _________________ www.vwnos.com [email protected]
Classic Brands. Classic Quality.
Not all parts are made the same. NOS OE/OEM parts made mainly in West Germany, Early Germany, and Early Brazil are where VW produced the best quality parts and best fitting products.
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Bulli Klinik Samba Member
Joined: January 16, 2005 Posts: 2079 Location: Bulli Klinik, Colorado Springs
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Posted: Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:11 am Post subject: Re: Ball joint comparison: Meyle, Lemförder, Moog, SKF and Heyd |
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I wouldn't press them in and out more than you have to or you may need to get oversized ball joints. A bit of sacrificial material comes off every time the joint is pushed in and out of the trailing arm.
I was taught to burnish the inside of the seating surface of the trailing arm with a wire wheel before installing the new joints. _________________ I've never met a Bus I didn't like.
Mike K
Bulli Klinik
Colorado Springs |
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borninabus Samba R&D Dept.
Joined: May 18, 2006 Posts: 4538 Location: Arizona Highways
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Posted: Fri Mar 27, 2020 9:42 am Post subject: Re: Ball joint comparison: Meyle, Lemförder, Moog, SKF and Heyd |
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the problems with various ball joints is well documented and it is twofold:
1: the knurled surface of the joint is too big and causes internal collapse upon install.
2: the joint is constructed in a way that it cannot sufficiently support the loads placed upon it.
simple measurements will address issue one.
this is why VW peened them in place after install
issue 2 is also easily dealt with. only use ball joints that have a one piece machined "cap", not ones that have a stamped steel 2 piece cap.
check out the vanagon forum and van cafe's website for the low down.
let's see the tops of those ball joints, OP _________________ 88 Van WBX, A/T - 13 JSW TDI 6M/T - 2012 Touareg TDI Sport |
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orwell84 Samba Member
Joined: May 14, 2007 Posts: 2537 Location: Plattsburgh, New York
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Posted: Fri Mar 27, 2020 4:29 pm Post subject: Re: Ball joint comparison: Meyle, Lemförder, Moog, SKF and Heyd |
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Sometimes I wonder if all these companies with different colored boxes with different letters on them all get them from the same few factories in WhongGhong province. Sometimes they put out good batches and sometimes they are shitty and those are the differences in quality we are attributing to brand. I say this because I see threads that say these ball joints, door seals whatever are the cat’s ass. Sooner or later someone else comes along and says they tried those ball joints, cv joint boot etc and they sucked. I don’t know enough about manufacturing to even guess. |
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SGKent Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007 Posts: 41031 Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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Posted: Fri Mar 27, 2020 4:56 pm Post subject: Re: Ball joint comparison: Meyle, Lemförder, Moog, SKF and Heyd |
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orwell84 wrote: |
Sometimes I wonder if all these companies with different colored boxes with different letters on them all get them from the same few factories in WhongGhong province. Sometimes they put out good batches and sometimes they are shitty and those are the differences in quality we are attributing to brand. I say this because I see threads that say these ball joints, door seals whatever are the cat’s ass. Sooner or later someone else comes along and says they tried those ball joints, cv joint boot etc and they sucked. I don’t know enough about manufacturing to even guess. |
Many companies are just labels, and they bid the part each time they need it to their preferred manufacturer list. If the last company wants the job again, and they bid the right price they get it. If they are out of line on the price it goes to another company. I have a friend, retired now, who made things for several industries. They place the drawing, and specs, then several manufacturers would bid on it. If he did it last time he had the option of negotiating with them to match the lowest price, or convince them why they didn't want to do that. If he wasn't willing to match or come close then he lost the job to someone else. Then when the part is made it goes thru QC when they ship. Depending on the item they might inspect each item in detail, or they might pull random items every 500, etc.. Some companies make their own but that has gone out of favor the last 40 years or so. Too expensive with labor unions and pensions, etc.. I do know that back about 1981 I had balljoints on my 1971 replaced. I took the arms in and they replaced the joints I took them that I got from VW. They worked perfect and there was no weird steering like there was when I replaced the arms on this bus. If I had to do it over again I would have just replaced the boots because the ball joints weren't that bad. Stupid move on my part. _________________ “Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21518 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Fri Mar 27, 2020 7:58 pm Post subject: Re: Ball joint comparison: Meyle, Lemförder, Moog, SKF and Heyd |
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SGKent wrote: |
orwell84 wrote: |
Sometimes I wonder if all these companies with different colored boxes with different letters on them all get them from the same few factories in WhongGhong province. Sometimes they put out good batches and sometimes they are shitty and those are the differences in quality we are attributing to brand. I say this because I see threads that say these ball joints, door seals whatever are the cat’s ass. Sooner or later someone else comes along and says they tried those ball joints, cv joint boot etc and they sucked. I don’t know enough about manufacturing to even guess. |
Many companies are just labels, and they bid the part each time they need it to their preferred manufacturer list. If the last company wants the job again, and they bid the right price they get it. If they are out of line on the price it goes to another company. I have a friend, retired now, who made things for several industries. They place the drawing, and specs, then several manufacturers would bid on it. If he did it last time he had the option of negotiating with them to match the lowest price, or convince them why they didn't want to do that. If he wasn't willing to match or come close then he lost the job to someone else. Then when the part is made it goes thru QC when they ship. Depending on the item they might inspect each item in detail, or they might pull random items every 500, etc.. Some companies make their own but that has gone out of favor the last 40 years or so. Too expensive with labor unions and pensions, etc.. I do know that back about 1981 I had balljoints on my 1971 replaced. I took the arms in and they replaced the joints I took them that I got from VW. They worked perfect and there was no weird steering like there was when I replaced the arms on this bus. If I had to do it over again I would have just replaced the boots because the ball joints weren't that bad. Stupid move on my part. |
Sadly....virtually all of this is true. I work with more than a few automotive parts companies....including one of teh major "joints" players.
To add to that....while its true that blueprints and specs change hands to the manufacturer bidding on producing a part for a major supplier....its not just made to that spec.
No two companies unless they are making a fully machined part...can make the same part the same way unless they have 100% identical equipment, materials and skills.
So then the engineering "negotiating" begins...."if we change this...what is the effect on quality...and what is that factors effect on cost?" And....virtually "0" aftermarket supply companies can afford the same quality as the OEM part....even if its being made by the same company...because they will never have teh same per order volume to bargain with.
And by the way...VW ...NEVER...made any of their own joints. Most probably they did in the late 1930's and through WW2....but they never made ball joints joints and neither did BMW, Mercedes or any OEM that I know of. Its a specialty....and certain companies excelled at it and were more cost effective.
Ray |
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Niels911SC Samba Member
Joined: March 03, 2013 Posts: 38 Location: Sweden
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Posted: Sun Mar 29, 2020 2:05 am Post subject: Re: Ball joint comparison: Meyle, Lemförder, Moog, SKF and Heyd |
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I would concur that most of them are in fact different, from the stamped caps to the ribs to the material used and the cut-out at the top, almost all of them have subtle differences.
They are however almost all heavy to turn, some more so than others, so they probably use mostly the same processes.
I accidentally ordered a Meyle HD as well (which is the oversized version of the Meyle), not knowning that it was oversized. Curiously enough that is the only ball joint that seems to turn normally and has a reasonable amount of resistance! It doesn't 'fall' from one side to the other when shaking, but it can easily be moved (and turned!) by hand. I can't press that one in however since I have regular sized suspension arms. Makes me consider bringing them to a machine shop and have them reamed to the correct spec for oversized joints... but then I'm at the mercy of one brand only in the future
Does anyone have the spec for what the size the holes in oversized torsion arms should be? Just have it reamed/ honed to 0.3mm less than what it is now?
Based on a reaction above I also ordered the Delphi TC134. Waiting for the delivery.
Right now I have 3 Heyd pressed in and 1 Meyle. Of the four, 2 Heyds and 1 Meyle twist/move with about the same friction as before they were pressed in, but 1 Heyd has become noticeably harder to turn.
My hypothesis is that the outside shells are probably thinner then the original OEM ones, and when pressed in they sometimes deform and put more pressure on the ball. I'm definitely going to press that one out again and replace with another. |
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Niels911SC Samba Member
Joined: March 03, 2013 Posts: 38 Location: Sweden
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Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2020 9:56 am Post subject: Re: Ball joint comparison: Meyle, Lemförder, Moog, SKF and Heyd |
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Well so far it seems an absolute crapshoot.
I had 3 Heyd and 1 Meyle pressed in. 2 Heyds with reasonable turning resistance, Meyle a bit heavier and the 3rd Heyd was very heavy.
Got the delivery of the Delphis, 2 actually have great turning resistance (tight but not heavy), but 2 are extremely heavy to turn.
So now I pressed out one Heyd and the Meyle, and pressed in the two light Delphis. So 2 Heyd in the lower arms, 2 Delphi in the upper arms. Out of like a total of 16 ball joints from all sorts of different brands this seems the best I can do
And all I can conclude is that all brands seem to have quality differences between samples, even the top ones (Heyd, Meyle, Lemförder), so you basically have to order like 8 or 10, select the 4 best ones and send the rest back... |
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SGKent Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007 Posts: 41031 Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2020 12:23 pm Post subject: Re: Ball joint comparison: Meyle, Lemförder, Moog, SKF and Heyd |
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Quote: |
"and send the rest back..." |
so someone else can have ball joints that are pressed in prior. _________________ “Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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Nitramrebrab72 Samba Member
Joined: November 10, 2018 Posts: 485 Location: France
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Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2020 12:33 pm Post subject: Re: Ball joint comparison: Meyle, Lemförder, Moog, SKF and Heyd |
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Lemforder or TRW and sometimes Moog (when they working under liscence of lemforder) , stay away from all the others that have a shiny press galvanised cap, if it's not rough cast finish or machined cap they won't last 5 minutes.
The bottom one is a lemforder design (similar design to TRW) made under liscence by Moog beware Moog also made the cheap and nasty one as well. |
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Niels911SC Samba Member
Joined: March 03, 2013 Posts: 38 Location: Sweden
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Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2020 12:45 pm Post subject: Re: Ball joint comparison: Meyle, Lemförder, Moog, SKF and Heyd |
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SGKent wrote: |
Quote: |
"and send the rest back..." |
so someone else can have ball joints that are pressed in prior. |
Of course not. I mean non-pressed in ones. You would easily notice it by the way because the splines get deformed. And when I pay $20-30 a piece for a ball joint I can expect a supplier to send me non-defective parts, and as a consumer I have the right to send back defective parts. If that supplier then decides to re-ship those parts to another customer, that is entirely on him. |
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SGKent Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007 Posts: 41031 Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2020 3:58 pm Post subject: Re: Ball joint comparison: Meyle, Lemförder, Moog, SKF and Heyd |
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Niels911SC wrote: |
SGKent wrote: |
Quote: |
"and send the rest back..." |
so someone else can have ball joints that are pressed in prior. |
Of course not. I mean non-pressed in ones. You would easily notice it by the way because the splines get deformed. And when I pay $20-30 a piece for a ball joint I can expect a supplier to send me non-defective parts, and as a consumer I have the right to send back defective parts. If that supplier then decides to re-ship those parts to another customer, that is entirely on him. |
I spray them or tie something around them that is a pain to remove and write DEFECTIVE all over it and the box so if they do send it they look like idiots. _________________ “Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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Randy in Maine Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2003 Posts: 34890 Location: The Beach
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Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2020 4:57 pm Post subject: Re: Ball joint comparison: Meyle, Lemförder, Moog, SKF and Heyd |
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What Steve said above is right on the money.
If I might offer a suggestion for when all of a sudden things are not as they were......take your flashlight and just look around for something that looks a little different. A hose or a wire off or not well connected or a split in the S boot or something like that. Before you suspect the FI system, have a good look at the ignition system (points plugs, wires, condenser, cap) as that is more likely the cause.
Always carry some basic tools including a volt ohm meter, and timing light, and a dwell/tach. And your Bentley manual. Even if you decide not to fix it, a real mechanic will need those things to do it well.
Just saying.... |
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airschooled Air-Schooled
Joined: April 04, 2012 Posts: 12722 Location: on a bike ride somewhere
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Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2020 5:26 pm Post subject: Re: Ball joint comparison: Meyle, Lemförder, Moog, SKF and Heyd |
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I have a theory, but I want to ask first…
Has ANYONE here actually measured their old ball joints for play before replacing? What was the play? (Measure in thousandths, with the spindle removed.)
Robbie _________________ Learn how your vintage VW works. And why it doesn't!
One-on-one tech help for your Volkswagen:
www.airschooled.com |
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busdaddy Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2004 Posts: 51144 Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2020 5:39 pm Post subject: Re: Ball joint comparison: Meyle, Lemförder, Moog, SKF and Heyd |
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SGKent wrote: |
Niels911SC wrote: |
SGKent wrote: |
Quote: |
"and send the rest back..." |
so someone else can have ball joints that are pressed in prior. |
Of course not. I mean non-pressed in ones. You would easily notice it by the way because the splines get deformed. And when I pay $20-30 a piece for a ball joint I can expect a supplier to send me non-defective parts, and as a consumer I have the right to send back defective parts. If that supplier then decides to re-ship those parts to another customer, that is entirely on him. |
I spray them or tie something around them that is a pain to remove and write DEFECTIVE all over it and the box so if they do send it they look like idiots. |
Great thinking, that would prevent some of those surprises that come from RockAuto in the taped shut box with greasy fingerprints and one missing little seal inside. _________________ Rust NEVER sleeps and stock never goes out of style.
Please don't PM technical questions, ask your problem in public so everyone can play along. If you think it's too stupid post it here
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Слава Україні! |
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busdaddy Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2004 Posts: 51144 Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2020 5:47 pm Post subject: Re: Ball joint comparison: Meyle, Lemförder, Moog, SKF and Heyd |
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asiab3 wrote: |
with the spindle removed.) |
But if the joint gets moved from it's operating position the play may change. They would be better measured with everything in place while prying between the arms and spindle.
On some other vintage cars where new joints aren't even available you can pop the taper joint and rotate it 180 degrees to get the moving parts against non worn areas, I have never tried it on a bus, but it does help on cars that don't see a lot of miles (weekend cruisers). _________________ Rust NEVER sleeps and stock never goes out of style.
Please don't PM technical questions, ask your problem in public so everyone can play along. If you think it's too stupid post it here
Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery!
Слава Україні! |
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