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Very strange "no power" phenomenon with '89 2.1 (SOLVED)
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Vanagon Nut
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 07, 2020 1:58 pm    Post subject: Re: very strange "no power" phenomenon with '89 2.1 Reply with quote

ourv12 wrote:
Vanagon Nut wrote:

It sure is nice to be able to confirm if the replaced or repaired part was the cause of a fault.

Yes I had checked all ignition wires and they are fine. The coil ohm resistance between terminals 4 + 15 (secondary) was 4.0400 ohms. and according to the Bentley it should be between 2.4-3.5 ohms. Mine was out of spec by more than .500 ohms.


Nice! Well, as you wrote, "solved".

Neil.
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floodwood
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2021 3:52 am    Post subject: Re: Very strange "no power" phenomenon with '89 2.1 (SOLVED) Reply with quote

Hi all,

I am currently having this issue which started out of nowhere about a week ago. I have a 91 GL tintop with the 2.1L engine.

The van will startup just fine, then runs rough for about 5 minutes with no or intermittent power to the throttle. There appears to be some mold backfiring / sputtering from the back. Once I give it some heavy juice (usually bouncing it once off redline), it runs fine for the duration of my drive. The issue seems to come back after the van has been turned off and sits.

From reading here it seems like this could be a fuel delivery issue, either electrical or due to restricted flow - either from the fuel tank or injectors.

Can anyone advise as to where my problem might lay? Thank you for the assistance!
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djkeev
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2021 4:11 am    Post subject: Re: very strange "no power" phenomenon with '89 2.1 Reply with quote

bettingonvans wrote:
I agree with DanHoug, you should try replacing your coil. It would not be a bad idea for you to carry a spare anyway.

I had a very similar problem a couple years ago on a very long trip. Started great every morning. Problems would start when we'd sit in traffic for a bit or stop for a short while (not long enough to cool off, maybe 5-10 minutes) before restarting.

It got worse and worse until I showed up at Art's Import Workshop in Hailey, ID where he took a couple looks and decided the coil was too hot. We replaced it with the spare I was carrying and it has run well since.

Mostly well, anyway.


Hmmmmm........ my 90 runs great!
But
If I hit traffic and idle for quite awhile, such as at a really busy intersection with a VERY short green light....... when it is time for me to finally go, it will at times stumble and hesitate as I slowly chug along and pick up speed.
I now dread any sort of traffic tie up.
The misfire occurrence is never in the type of situation where one can safely pull over and take measurements of the coil!
Honestly in 8,500 miles it has only happened three times.
I tend to avoid crowds!

I've been thinking the plugs were loading up at a prolonged idle and then misfiring.
The heat soaked coil never occurred to me.

Thank you Dan!
I'll be swapping coils soon and then look forward to my next traffic jam!

Dave
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2021 6:04 am    Post subject: Re: Very strange "no power" phenomenon with '89 2.1 (SOLVED) Reply with quote

I happen to have a spare ignition coil so I will swap that in. How /what do I test for on my current ignition coil just to do a comparison?

Additionally, is there any credence to the fuel delivery issue or is this more of a matter of electrical / spark- since the backfiring is due to unburnt fuel would that mean fuel delivery is ok?
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Vanagon Nut
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2021 5:16 pm    Post subject: Re: Very strange "no power" phenomenon with '89 2.1 (SOLVED) Reply with quote

bloodwood wrote:


I am currently having this issue which started out of nowhere about a week ago. I have a 91 GL tintop with the 2.1L engine.

The van will startup just fine, then runs rough for about 5 minutes with no or intermittent power to the throttle. There appears to be some mold backfiring / sputtering from the back. Once I give it some heavy juice (usually bouncing it once off redline), it runs fine for the duration of my drive. The issue seems to come back after the van has been turned off and sits.



If the issue is consistent (repeatable), try to determine under what conditions it happens. e.g. does it happen when engine is cold or fully warmed up or at any temp?

Does it it idle ok after first start? After you get it to run ok, does it run ok at highway speeds and stop/go traffic?

Neil.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2021 5:51 pm    Post subject: Re: Very strange "no power" phenomenon with '89 2.1 (SOLVED) Reply with quote

Ignition coils are high voltages devices and do not always responded to low voltage resistance tests. In the broadcast world where tube transmitter can run 10,0000 volts plate voltage, a ‘high pot’ tester that tests at rated voltage is necessary. Ignition coils run even higher. The tar like schmoo that fills old coils is susceptible to all sorts of high voltage evils. When in doubt, replace or test with cool high voltage scopes.
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floodwood
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2021 6:04 pm    Post subject: Re: Very strange "no power" phenomenon with '89 2.1 (SOLVED) Reply with quote

Thanks - I will definitely replace my coil this week and report back. In the meantime, to answer the prior question, the condition happens whether the engine is warm or cold, on any startup, and the issue seems to have gotten worse - I used to idle at 900 rpm even and now am seeing the idle fluctuate between 700-800 in a rhythmic pattern. Additionally I’m having a lot of trouble even getting the van started - starter is known to be good as I just replaced it last month and it works fine.

Would the coil going bad also cause this condition?
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Vanagon Nut
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2021 8:55 am    Post subject: Re: Very strange "no power" phenomenon with '89 2.1 (SOLVED) Reply with quote

flood wood wrote:
.... the condition happens whether the engine is warm or cold, on any startup, and the issue seems to have gotten worse - I used to idle at 900 rpm even and now am seeing the idle fluctuate between 700-800 in a rhythmic pattern. Additionally I’m having a lot of trouble even getting the van started -


I'd look at the idle control system (maybe clean idle control valve first?) or for a vacuum leak at intake first.

Neil.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2021 3:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Very strange "no power" phenomenon with '89 2.1 (SOLVED) Reply with quote

I cleaned my idle control valve a few months ago and it buzzes and seems to operate properly. However, I do have an extra I can swap in.

Can you provide any other information about the vacuum leak at intake and what to check? Are you referring to leaks at the intake manifold? Are there seals / gaskets there that wear out?

I will be replacing the coil this weekend and checking the aforementioned and will report back.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2021 4:57 pm    Post subject: Re: Very strange "no power" phenomenon with '89 2.1 (SOLVED) Reply with quote

I have three coils on hand.
But they are all old.
I’m going to order a new one from FCP and install it
I’ll keep my current coil as my travel known good spare.
I’ll see if the new one cures my hot idle heat sink stumble.
If it does, I’ll order a 2nd new one to carry and toss the old ones.

Dave
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2021 9:18 am    Post subject: Re: Very strange "no power" phenomenon with '89 2.1 (SOLVED) Reply with quote

If some of you replace the coil... be aware that's a difference in size of the 2 spade connectors. On the new coil it's shorter (10mm vs 18mm) so your white plastic connector won't fit, you have to remove the old connector and put it on the new coil.
Note: the new coil is from our regular vendor.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2021 5:19 pm    Post subject: Re: Very strange "no power" phenomenon with '89 2.1 (SOLVED) Reply with quote

My new coil and plug wires are in the mail. In typical Vanagon fashion, my running issues completely disappeared this week. Probably 2-3 hours of run time around town / highway. Go figure. Regardless, I thought it prudent to also check my distributor and found the following arcing on the rotor and contacts in the cap (below).

I have already replaced the cap and rotor twice since i purchased the van 2.5 years ago. Can anyone advise the following?

1. Could the bad condition of my distributor cap/rotor cause my running issues?
2. What could be causing this condition in my distributor?
3. Is it worth replcaing my entire distributor (not just a new cap and rotor)?


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2021 7:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Very strange "no power" phenomenon with '89 2.1 (SOLVED) Reply with quote

Bad battery? Bad battery cables, terminal connections?
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 4:27 pm    Post subject: Re: Very strange "no power" phenomenon with '89 2.1 (SOLVED) Reply with quote

Floodwood- your cap and rotor pictures are fine. no sign of carbon arcing. there's always crusty schmoo on the electrodes.

several questions... you have a resistance rotor, i assume resistance plug wire ends, are you also using resistor plugs? if so, that's a no-no. too much total resistance.

is your coil bakelite tower CLEAN?

i'd suggest to you some diagnostic tools that are inexpensive... get a timing light, it tells you when the spark drops out. get a Noid light, it tells you when the injector signal drops out. knowing whether you have an ignition or injector problem is a huge step towards effective troubleshooting.

and you can make this... it tells you whether your distributor signal is good. between the 3 tests, Bob's Your Uncle.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=701391&highlight=
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 5:38 pm    Post subject: Re: Very strange "no power" phenomenon with '89 2.1 (SOLVED) Reply with quote

Is an ignition coil that have sleep for over ten years (was pretty good when it get to sleep) can still be good enough as a reliable spare part ?
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 5:42 pm    Post subject: Re: Very strange "no power" phenomenon with '89 2.1 (SOLVED) Reply with quote

Heat and high voltage wear them out, sleeping should be fine!
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 6:22 pm    Post subject: Re: Very strange "no power" phenomenon with '89 2.1 (SOLVED) Reply with quote

DanHoug wrote:
Floodwood- your cap and rotor pictures are fine. no sign of carbon arcing. there's always crusty schmoo on the electrodes.

several questions... you have a resistance rotor, i assume resistance plug wire ends, are you also using resistor plugs? if so, that's a no-no. too much total resistance.

is your coil bakelite tower CLEAN?

i'd suggest to you some diagnostic tools that are inexpensive... get a timing light, it tells you when the spark drops out. get a Noid light, it tells you when the injector signal drops out. knowing whether you have an ignition or injector problem is a huge step towards effective troubleshooting.

and you can make this... it tells you whether your distributor signal is good. between the 3 tests, Bob's Your Uncle.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=701391&highlight=


Thank you sir. Never heard of a NOID light - I will rent or pick up a local set in addition to a timing light. Reading through your hall test thread now as well.

To clarify your point about resistance rotor / plug wire ends / spark plugs - you are referring to the electrical resistance through the ignition sytem being too high, correct? I am replacing the plug wires and coil, but how else should I ensure resistance is not too high?
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 7:58 pm    Post subject: Re: Very strange "no power" phenomenon with '89 2.1 (SOLVED) Reply with quote

you'll need the BOSCH2 noid light... too cheap to rent, just buy one.

your rotor will have a resistance bridge in it that is OEM. your plug wire should measure 5k ohms resistance from end to end, with the resistance coming from an end resistor built into the spark plug connector. that is ALL the resistance your ignition system should have... meaning do NOT use a resistor plug, typically anything with an "R" in the plug number.

the current favorite plug is the NGK BP6ET which is a NON resistor plug with 3 ground electrodes.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2021 1:58 am    Post subject: Re: Very strange "no power" phenomenon with '89 2.1 (SOLVED) Reply with quote

That’s not enough to cause the heat soak issue, you would have to look with an oscope to see the waveform change.

Plenty of cars run fine on out-of- spec coils.

I find half of new parts don’t meet specs out of box.

Resistance is good for resistors, but little else. The number of bits wasted in the internet trying to ohm out cam sensors….
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2021 4:05 am    Post subject: Re: Very strange "no power" phenomenon with '89 2.1 (SOLVED) Reply with quote

It isn’t your running problem but on your distributor photos I don’t see a dust cap below the rotor.
If you look closely at the installed distributor cap without the dust cap installed there will Be play….. side to side rotational wiggle in the cap.
The alignment slot on the distributor body is milled Wider that the molded tang on the distributor cap.
It isn’t much but can affect your timing a fraction either way.

Dave
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