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BusBerd Samba Member
Joined: November 19, 2005 Posts: 834 Location: Minneapolis, MN
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Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2020 8:19 am Post subject: Flywheel questions |
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Hey Guys! I'll try to make this concise. (Pics below)My questions are these:
1. Can I clean my flywheel in a parts cleaner without damaging it or the o-ring?
2. Should I replace the o-ring with a new one as a matter of practice, each time the flywheel is removed?
3. If the flywheel was not tightened to 80 ft lb, but rather just tightened as much as a regular wrench would allow, how would I notice? what sort of damage or difference would I see? What should I look for?
4. Is the o-ring that black inner seal that is hiding under the overhang just to the outside of the flywheel bolt holes?
5. Is there a bushing or felt o-ring for the center hole? if so, should this be changed as a matter of practice, as well?
Thanks!!
BusBerd
_________________ "The large print giveth and the small print taketh away."
1977 Westfalia Camper Bus 2.0L Fuel Injected Engine, Manual Transmission
Last edited by BusBerd on Wed Apr 08, 2020 4:26 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Manfred58sc Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2009 Posts: 3374
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Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2020 8:30 am Post subject: Re: Flywheel questions |
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Read your Bentley manual, all questions will be answered ( The torque value is NOT 250) _________________ Fat chick owner/operator |
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SGKent Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007 Posts: 41031 Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2020 8:57 am Post subject: Re: Flywheel questions |
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you can clean it with solvent then check the surface for cracks, then surface it with some alum oxide paper to cross hatch it, You must replace the o-ring. You will want to grease the pilot bearing or replace it if it is a manual trans. There is also a felt ring and holder ring if it is a manual trans. And like Manfred pointed out, read your Bentley first because you don't have the correct torque and it shows you are going into this blind as a bat. _________________ “Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50261
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Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2020 8:57 am Post subject: Re: Flywheel questions |
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You do not want to be in the same vehicle as one that has had the flywheel come loose at full rev. Buy or borrow a torque wrench.
You can get by by putting a thin smear of high temperature silicone on the o-ring.
You have the felt retainer in place, so just need the felt itself.
You should be replacing the pilot bearing if it has more than a few tens of thousands of miles on it, it is the weakest link in the VW clutch system typically being the first piece to fail so installing a new bearing whenever you have the opportunity is pretty much a requirement. |
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SGKent Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007 Posts: 41031 Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2020 9:02 am Post subject: Re: Flywheel questions |
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Wildthings wrote: |
You do not want to be in the same vehicle as one that has had the flywheel come loose at full rev. Buy or borrow a torque wrench.... . |
saw a car cut in half at the track one time by a loose flywheel. It went round and round like a cutoff wheel until it exited and the car was essentially in two parts. Saw a mazda one time a clutch disk exploded in. Looked like a hand grenade went off under the hood even with a scatter shield. There is a reason race cars have scatter shields. _________________ “Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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Vanapplebomb Samba Member
Joined: November 03, 2010 Posts: 5389 Location: Holland, MI
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Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2020 9:54 am Post subject: Re: Flywheel questions |
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BusBerd wrote: |
3. If the flywheel was not tightened to 250 ft pounds, but rather just tightened as much as a regular wrench would allow, how would I notice? what sort of damage or difference would I see? What should I look for? |
Uhhh... I think you got your engines confused. Type 1, and Type 4 flywheel to crankshaft connection is entirely different. You are thinking of a Type 1 with the large M28x1.5 gland nut at the center. The Type 4 M12 bolts should be torqued to 80ft*Lbs in a star pattern.
I personally take them all up to 20 Ft*Lbs first, then brint them all up to 80Ft*Lbs. Personal habit of mine with star patters is to start everything at about 25%, then finish it off full torque.
You will need a new lock plate, which goes between the flywheel and shoulder bolts. It is a softer material that the serrations on the shoulder bolts bite into. They are a one and done deal. Once the flywheel bolts are torqued, it can not be used again. _________________ 1800 Type 4 Berrien 295
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=487021 |
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21474 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2020 10:05 am Post subject: Re: Flywheel questions |
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Vanapplebomb wrote: |
BusBerd wrote: |
3. If the flywheel was not tightened to 250 ft pounds, but rather just tightened as much as a regular wrench would allow, how would I notice? what sort of damage or difference would I see? What should I look for? |
Uhhh... I think you got your engines confused. Type 1, and Type 4 flywheel to crankshaft connection is entirely different. You are thinking of a Type 1 with the large M28x1.5 gland nut at the center. The Type 4 M12 bolts should be torqued to 80ft*Lbs in a star pattern.
I personally take them all up to 20 Ft*Lbs first, then brint them all up to 80Ft*Lbs. Personal habit of mine with star patters is to start everything at about 25%, then finish it off full torque.
You will need a new lock plate, which goes between the flywheel and shoulder bolts. It is a softer material that the serrations on the shoulder bolts bite into. They are a one and done deal. Once the flywheel bolts are torqued, it can not be used again. |
Great listing of steps. In a pinch...you can flip the locking plate over....once. Yes...serrations on serrations on the same side is poor locking, but usually the back side surface is clean enough for good locking.
Ray |
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Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50261
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Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2020 10:51 am Post subject: Re: Flywheel questions |
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VW eliminated the lock plate on Vanagon WBXer engines, making the assumption that the Bay and Vanagon WBXer flywheels are identical, then VW has basically decided the lock plate is unnecessary.
Personally I like to Loctite the flywheel bolts and the clutch cover bolts. |
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BusBerd Samba Member
Joined: November 19, 2005 Posts: 834 Location: Minneapolis, MN
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Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2020 11:03 am Post subject: Re: Flywheel questions |
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Thank you gentlemen. I'll take the helpful suggestion along with the not-so-helpful ones.
Of course I will consult my beloved Bentley along with my other VW books too, as well as my post here (and other posts) on samba for further information before I begin this chapter of my project. I don't do this everyday so with most things, I tend to over-prepare each step before I begin. This post is a little part of that process.
I wanted to get it posted right away today. Sorry. I should have edited it before I opened it up to the wolves.
A sincere "thank you" to those that have been (and continue to be) generous and gracious with their time, knowledge, and experience. _________________ "The large print giveth and the small print taketh away."
1977 Westfalia Camper Bus 2.0L Fuel Injected Engine, Manual Transmission |
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Vanapplebomb Samba Member
Joined: November 03, 2010 Posts: 5389 Location: Holland, MI
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Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2020 12:38 pm Post subject: Re: Flywheel questions |
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Wildthings wrote: |
VW eliminated the lock plate on Vanagon WBXer engines, making the assumption that the Bay and Vanagon WBXer flywheels are identical, then VW has basically decided the lock plate is unnecessary.
Personally I like to Loctite the flywheel bolts and the clutch cover bolts. |
The Vanagons used socket head cap screws to hold the flywheel in place. If you use the serrated flanged bolts found on 79 and earlier Type 4 engines without the lock plate, it chews the snot out of the flywheel after torquing and removing a couple times. _________________ 1800 Type 4 Berrien 295
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=487021
Last edited by Vanapplebomb on Wed Apr 08, 2020 1:59 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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SGKent Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007 Posts: 41031 Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2020 12:57 pm Post subject: Re: Flywheel questions |
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Quote: |
before I opened it up to the wolves. |
so people trying to help you are wolves? _________________ “Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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BusBerd Samba Member
Joined: November 19, 2005 Posts: 834 Location: Minneapolis, MN
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Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2020 2:45 pm Post subject: Re: Flywheel questions |
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SGKent wrote: |
Quote: |
before I opened it up to the wolves. |
so people trying to help you are wolves? |
No, I don't think everyone is. Obviously. The vast majority are generous and gracious people, as I wrote above. But sometimes, in some of the posts I've read here in this forum over the years, I've needed to take an extra step just to separate the wheat from the chaff to end up with something helpful.
I don't mind. It is not something unique to samba. Just a fact of life. _________________ "The large print giveth and the small print taketh away."
1977 Westfalia Camper Bus 2.0L Fuel Injected Engine, Manual Transmission |
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halfassleatherworks Samba Member
Joined: December 09, 2018 Posts: 636 Location: Reno NV
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Posted: Mon Oct 05, 2020 5:52 pm Post subject: Re: Flywheel questions |
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So the type 4 flywheel bolts are torqued to 80, what about the flex plate with the automictic transmission are they the same bolts and torque and what is and were can you get the right size socket?? _________________ Halfass Leatherworks*****GOT LEATHER Made to order Leather crafts, you can find us on that face book thing
Belts, wallets, mouse pads, drink coasters, Engraving, most things made in leather.
personal items if you want it in leather in Reno Nv, ***** |
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busdaddy Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2004 Posts: 51057 Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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Posted: Mon Oct 05, 2020 5:57 pm Post subject: Re: Flywheel questions |
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Your local FLAPS or Amazon will have sets of triple square bits, the torque is listed in your Bentley manual, same bolts, different length IIRC. _________________ Rust NEVER sleeps and stock never goes out of style.
Please don't PM technical questions, ask your problem in public so everyone can play along. If you think it's too stupid post it here
Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery!
Слава Україні! |
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halfassleatherworks Samba Member
Joined: December 09, 2018 Posts: 636 Location: Reno NV
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Posted: Mon Oct 05, 2020 6:03 pm Post subject: Re: Flywheel questions |
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are triple square bits, in standard sizes or does vw use special size like some 16, or 18MM headed bolts and nuts? _________________ Halfass Leatherworks*****GOT LEATHER Made to order Leather crafts, you can find us on that face book thing
Belts, wallets, mouse pads, drink coasters, Engraving, most things made in leather.
personal items if you want it in leather in Reno Nv, ***** |
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busdaddy Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2004 Posts: 51057 Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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Posted: Mon Oct 05, 2020 6:23 pm Post subject: Re: Flywheel questions |
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halfassleatherworks wrote: |
are triple square bits, in standard sizes or does vw use special size like some 16, or 18MM headed bolts and nuts? |
Not on early models like a bus, the assortment the FLAPS has always works for me, also handy for CV's and fan hub bolts. That oddball stuff came along much later, I guess VW thought there were some tools languishing in drawers that weren't getting the attention they needed. _________________ Rust NEVER sleeps and stock never goes out of style.
Please don't PM technical questions, ask your problem in public so everyone can play along. If you think it's too stupid post it here
Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery!
Слава Україні! |
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jtauxe Samba Member
Joined: September 30, 2004 Posts: 5778 Location: Los Alamos, New Mexico
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Posted: Mon Oct 05, 2020 7:04 pm Post subject: Re: Flywheel questions |
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Vanapplebomb wrote: |
You will need a new lock plate, which goes between the flywheel and shoulder bolts. It is a softer material that the serrations on the shoulder bolts bite into. They are a one and done deal. Once the flywheel bolts are torqued, it can not be used again. |
It is my understanding that the Bentley says to use 5 new serrated flywheel bolts on each installation, too. _________________ John
"Travelling in a fried-out Kombi, on a hippie trail, head full of zombie..." - Colin Hay and Ron Strykert
http://vw.tauxe.net
1969 Transporter, 1971 Westfalia, 1976, 1977, 1976, 1977, 1971, 1973, 1977 Westfalias,
1979 Champagne Sunroof, 1974 Westfalia Automatic, 1979 Transporter, 1972 Sportsmobile, 1973 Transporter Wild Westerner, 1974 Westfalia parts bus, 1975 Mexican single cab *FOR SALE*, 1978 Irish 4-door double cab RHD
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halfassleatherworks Samba Member
Joined: December 09, 2018 Posts: 636 Location: Reno NV
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Posted: Mon Oct 05, 2020 7:17 pm Post subject: Re: Flywheel questions |
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thank you I have a Bentley coming, I have a 75 ED1800 with the automatic that I am about to split the case on. I pulled the #3 rod and from what I have seen it has standard factory bearings at lest on the rods look almost like new. _________________ Halfass Leatherworks*****GOT LEATHER Made to order Leather crafts, you can find us on that face book thing
Belts, wallets, mouse pads, drink coasters, Engraving, most things made in leather.
personal items if you want it in leather in Reno Nv, ***** |
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21474 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Mon Oct 05, 2020 9:56 pm Post subject: Re: Flywheel questions |
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jtauxe wrote: |
Vanapplebomb wrote: |
You will need a new lock plate, which goes between the flywheel and shoulder bolts. It is a softer material that the serrations on the shoulder bolts bite into. They are a one and done deal. Once the flywheel bolts are torqued, it can not be used again. |
It is my understanding that the Bentley says to use 5 new serrated flywheel bolts on each installation, too. |
Yep....but try finding new ones....at least exactly like stock. The closest I have seen that have the proper specs are these...but I do not think they have the serrations or flange heads...but they work.
https://lnengineering.com/hd-flywheel-bolt-set.html
AS I noted earlier....the plate you can flip over....once. Its just a surface softer than the flywheel for the bolt serrations to bite into....other than trying to bite into a cast flywheel which causes little chips.
Ray |
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SGKent Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007 Posts: 41031 Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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