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BusBerd
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2020 8:19 am    Post subject: Flywheel questions Reply with quote

Hey Guys! I'll try to make this concise. (Pics below)My questions are these:

1. Can I clean my flywheel in a parts cleaner without damaging it or the o-ring?

2. Should I replace the o-ring with a new one as a matter of practice, each time the flywheel is removed?

3. If the flywheel was not tightened to 80 ft lb, but rather just tightened as much as a regular wrench would allow, how would I notice? what sort of damage or difference would I see? What should I look for?

4. Is the o-ring that black inner seal that is hiding under the overhang just to the outside of the flywheel bolt holes?

5. Is there a bushing or felt o-ring for the center hole? if so, should this be changed as a matter of practice, as well?

Thanks!!
BusBerd

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Manfred58sc
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2020 8:30 am    Post subject: Re: Flywheel questions Reply with quote

Read your Bentley manual, all questions will be answered ( The torque value is NOT 250)
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SGKent Premium Member
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2020 8:57 am    Post subject: Re: Flywheel questions Reply with quote

you can clean it with solvent then check the surface for cracks, then surface it with some alum oxide paper to cross hatch it, You must replace the o-ring. You will want to grease the pilot bearing or replace it if it is a manual trans. There is also a felt ring and holder ring if it is a manual trans. And like Manfred pointed out, read your Bentley first because you don't have the correct torque and it shows you are going into this blind as a bat.
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Wildthings
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2020 8:57 am    Post subject: Re: Flywheel questions Reply with quote

You do not want to be in the same vehicle as one that has had the flywheel come loose at full rev. Buy or borrow a torque wrench.

You can get by by putting a thin smear of high temperature silicone on the o-ring.

You have the felt retainer in place, so just need the felt itself.

You should be replacing the pilot bearing if it has more than a few tens of thousands of miles on it, it is the weakest link in the VW clutch system typically being the first piece to fail so installing a new bearing whenever you have the opportunity is pretty much a requirement.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2020 9:02 am    Post subject: Re: Flywheel questions Reply with quote

Wildthings wrote:
You do not want to be in the same vehicle as one that has had the flywheel come loose at full rev. Buy or borrow a torque wrench.... .

saw a car cut in half at the track one time by a loose flywheel. It went round and round like a cutoff wheel until it exited and the car was essentially in two parts. Saw a mazda one time a clutch disk exploded in. Looked like a hand grenade went off under the hood even with a scatter shield. There is a reason race cars have scatter shields.
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Vanapplebomb
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2020 9:54 am    Post subject: Re: Flywheel questions Reply with quote

BusBerd wrote:

3. If the flywheel was not tightened to 250 ft pounds, but rather just tightened as much as a regular wrench would allow, how would I notice? what sort of damage or difference would I see? What should I look for?


Uhhh... I think you got your engines confused. Type 1, and Type 4 flywheel to crankshaft connection is entirely different. You are thinking of a Type 1 with the large M28x1.5 gland nut at the center. The Type 4 M12 bolts should be torqued to 80ft*Lbs in a star pattern.

I personally take them all up to 20 Ft*Lbs first, then brint them all up to 80Ft*Lbs. Personal habit of mine with star patters is to start everything at about 25%, then finish it off full torque.

You will need a new lock plate, which goes between the flywheel and shoulder bolts. It is a softer material that the serrations on the shoulder bolts bite into. They are a one and done deal. Once the flywheel bolts are torqued, it can not be used again.
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2020 10:05 am    Post subject: Re: Flywheel questions Reply with quote

Vanapplebomb wrote:
BusBerd wrote:

3. If the flywheel was not tightened to 250 ft pounds, but rather just tightened as much as a regular wrench would allow, how would I notice? what sort of damage or difference would I see? What should I look for?


Uhhh... I think you got your engines confused. Type 1, and Type 4 flywheel to crankshaft connection is entirely different. You are thinking of a Type 1 with the large M28x1.5 gland nut at the center. The Type 4 M12 bolts should be torqued to 80ft*Lbs in a star pattern.

I personally take them all up to 20 Ft*Lbs first, then brint them all up to 80Ft*Lbs. Personal habit of mine with star patters is to start everything at about 25%, then finish it off full torque.

You will need a new lock plate, which goes between the flywheel and shoulder bolts. It is a softer material that the serrations on the shoulder bolts bite into. They are a one and done deal. Once the flywheel bolts are torqued, it can not be used again.


Great listing of steps. In a pinch...you can flip the locking plate over....once. Yes...serrations on serrations on the same side is poor locking, but usually the back side surface is clean enough for good locking.

Ray
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Wildthings
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2020 10:51 am    Post subject: Re: Flywheel questions Reply with quote

VW eliminated the lock plate on Vanagon WBXer engines, making the assumption that the Bay and Vanagon WBXer flywheels are identical, then VW has basically decided the lock plate is unnecessary.

Personally I like to Loctite the flywheel bolts and the clutch cover bolts.
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BusBerd
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2020 11:03 am    Post subject: Re: Flywheel questions Reply with quote

Thank you gentlemen. I'll take the helpful suggestion along with the not-so-helpful ones.

Of course I will consult my beloved Bentley along with my other VW books too, as well as my post here (and other posts) on samba for further information before I begin this chapter of my project. I don't do this everyday so with most things, I tend to over-prepare each step before I begin. This post is a little part of that process.

I wanted to get it posted right away today. Sorry. I should have edited it before I opened it up to the wolves.

A sincere "thank you" to those that have been (and continue to be) generous and gracious with their time, knowledge, and experience.
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Vanapplebomb
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2020 12:38 pm    Post subject: Re: Flywheel questions Reply with quote

Wildthings wrote:
VW eliminated the lock plate on Vanagon WBXer engines, making the assumption that the Bay and Vanagon WBXer flywheels are identical, then VW has basically decided the lock plate is unnecessary.

Personally I like to Loctite the flywheel bolts and the clutch cover bolts.


The Vanagons used socket head cap screws to hold the flywheel in place. If you use the serrated flanged bolts found on 79 and earlier Type 4 engines without the lock plate, it chews the snot out of the flywheel after torquing and removing a couple times.
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SGKent Premium Member
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2020 12:57 pm    Post subject: Re: Flywheel questions Reply with quote

Quote:
before I opened it up to the wolves.


so people trying to help you are wolves?
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BusBerd
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2020 2:45 pm    Post subject: Re: Flywheel questions Reply with quote

SGKent wrote:
Quote:
before I opened it up to the wolves.


so people trying to help you are wolves?


No, I don't think everyone is. Obviously. The vast majority are generous and gracious people, as I wrote above. But sometimes, in some of the posts I've read here in this forum over the years, I've needed to take an extra step just to separate the wheat from the chaff to end up with something helpful.
I don't mind. It is not something unique to samba. Just a fact of life.
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halfassleatherworks
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2020 5:52 pm    Post subject: Re: Flywheel questions Reply with quote

So the type 4 flywheel bolts are torqued to 80, what about the flex plate with the automictic transmission are they the same bolts and torque and what is and were can you get the right size socket??
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busdaddy
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2020 5:57 pm    Post subject: Re: Flywheel questions Reply with quote

Your local FLAPS or Amazon will have sets of triple square bits, the torque is listed in your Bentley manual, same bolts, different length IIRC.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2020 6:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Flywheel questions Reply with quote

are triple square bits, in standard sizes or does vw use special size like some 16, or 18MM headed bolts and nuts?
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busdaddy
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2020 6:23 pm    Post subject: Re: Flywheel questions Reply with quote

halfassleatherworks wrote:
are triple square bits, in standard sizes or does vw use special size like some 16, or 18MM headed bolts and nuts?

Not on early models like a bus, the assortment the FLAPS has always works for me, also handy for CV's and fan hub bolts. That oddball stuff came along much later, I guess VW thought there were some tools languishing in drawers that weren't getting the attention they needed.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2020 7:04 pm    Post subject: Re: Flywheel questions Reply with quote

Vanapplebomb wrote:
You will need a new lock plate, which goes between the flywheel and shoulder bolts. It is a softer material that the serrations on the shoulder bolts bite into. They are a one and done deal. Once the flywheel bolts are torqued, it can not be used again.

It is my understanding that the Bentley says to use 5 new serrated flywheel bolts on each installation, too.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2020 7:17 pm    Post subject: Re: Flywheel questions Reply with quote

thank you I have a Bentley coming, I have a 75 ED1800 with the automatic that I am about to split the case on. I pulled the #3 rod and from what I have seen it has standard factory bearings at lest on the rods look almost like new.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2020 9:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Flywheel questions Reply with quote

jtauxe wrote:
Vanapplebomb wrote:
You will need a new lock plate, which goes between the flywheel and shoulder bolts. It is a softer material that the serrations on the shoulder bolts bite into. They are a one and done deal. Once the flywheel bolts are torqued, it can not be used again.

It is my understanding that the Bentley says to use 5 new serrated flywheel bolts on each installation, too.


Yep....but try finding new ones....at least exactly like stock. The closest I have seen that have the proper specs are these...but I do not think they have the serrations or flange heads...but they work.

https://lnengineering.com/hd-flywheel-bolt-set.html

AS I noted earlier....the plate you can flip over....once. Its just a surface softer than the flywheel for the bolt serrations to bite into....other than trying to bite into a cast flywheel which causes little chips.

Ray
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2020 11:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Flywheel questions Reply with quote

Might check with these folks:

https://www.busdepot.com/n0143351

https://bus-ok.nl/T2-T3-Flywheel-Bolt-1700-2000cc-or-Waterboxer-Manual-N0143351

https://kieftenklok.nl/shop/en/front-page/t2-1968-...-82-detail

https://www.serial-kombi.com/en-GB/transporter-t25-t3-petrol-engine-/-mechanical-parts-n312597

https://www.wagenteile.de/shop_de/no-0143351-schraube-n0143351.html
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