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1st gear pop out on lift off
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mcmscott
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 25, 2020 9:03 am    Post subject: Re: 1st gear pop out on lift off Reply with quote

2 drain plugs is pre 1970, single is 1970 and later.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 25, 2020 6:20 am    Post subject: Re: 1st gear pop out on lift off Reply with quote

Yes I've heard about that trick of removing the the worn teeth.

My box is an AO with the 2 drain plugs. Is this considered a late one?

Thanks for the info.
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mcmscott
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 24, 2020 8:47 am    Post subject: Re: 1st gear pop out on lift off Reply with quote

balljoint wrote:
Got ya there gears.


mcmscott wrote:
"the problem is the engagement teeth with the contact of the operating sleeve."


In a case like this is it recommended to change both 1st gear and the operating sleeve?



Commen practice on rebuilds is to remove the worn teeth, sounds odd. VW gears run in "sets" like 2 sets of 5 teeth, 2 of 3, 3 of 3, 3 of 5. Depending on the year of the gear. Removing the worn sets leaves new sets. This and inspection of the slider will tell if the slider needs replacement. Also early boxes didn't move the slider as far as later boxes. When I build an early box I use a later shift rail and iether machine the slider or use a later one.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 24, 2020 6:35 am    Post subject: Re: 1st gear pop out on lift off Reply with quote

Got ya there gears.


mcmscott wrote:
"the problem is the engagement teeth with the contact of the operating sleeve."


In a case like this is it recommended to change both 1st gear and the operating sleeve?
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mcmscott
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2020 4:30 pm    Post subject: Re: 1st gear pop out on lift off Reply with quote

gears wrote:
Photos might help:

Here's an unworn flank (yeah OEM sometimes isn't that pretty)
Note the slight wear on tip and corner ..
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


.. while on this gear, tip & corner have about the same wear, yet the flank is toast. So, you can't judge condition of the engagement teeth based on tips alone. (sorry for fuzzy)
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



Damn! I wish I could take pics like that.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2020 12:39 pm    Post subject: Re: 1st gear pop out on lift off Reply with quote

Photos might help:

Here's an unworn flank (yeah OEM sometimes isn't that pretty)
Note the slight wear on tip and corner ..
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


.. while on this gear, tip & corner have about the same wear, yet the flank is toast. So, you can't judge condition of the engagement teeth based on tips alone. (sorry for fuzzy)
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2020 12:00 pm    Post subject: Re: 1st gear pop out on lift off Reply with quote

"the problem is the engagement teeth with the contact of the operating sleeve."
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2020 11:48 am    Post subject: Re: 1st gear pop out on lift off Reply with quote

Scott, you seem to know what you are doing.

How about helping the OP?

Focus your energy on actually helping.

Just a suggestion.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2020 7:39 am    Post subject: Re: 1st gear pop out on lift off Reply with quote

Ohio Tom wrote:
mcmscott wrote:
Ohio Tom wrote:
Yes, the fork should hold the slider home. That's how you know you have it adjusted correctly. When it holds the slider all the home for both 1st and 2nd gear, you got it right.
It's like splitting hairs.
A fuzz too far one way, and it pops out of one gear; too far the other and it pops out of the other gear...
A 1/32" of an inch can make a difference...



Sorry in advance for the reply because it is gonna be harsh,, but this is dead wrong. This person obviously has no idea how a vw transmission works.
If the fork held the operating sleeve against the gear it would scream and wear out very early. There is movement around the fork when the operating sleeve is in its coresponding gear, the operating sleeve can, and does move away from that gear. Normal operation. The only thing 32nd of an inch would do is cause noise and a worn fork.
Transmissions are "held" in gear by the angle on the engagement teeth on the gear x the condition of the operating sleeve.
Not saying that fork adjustment is not important, but if it was so bad as to pull it out of gear it would scream in the next gear. If that was the case then keep driving because the oppisite side of the fork will waer down and allow it to engage first gear all the way... But that is not the case. The engagement teeth on first gear are worn, the builder didn't catch it or thought the wear was "acceptable".


Sorry for the rant, but Ohio dude is so wrong we might as well call him Dale or Ray.


At least you can address me by my name... Tom... It's OK to do that...
I don't know Dale or Ray anyways... I hope that wasn't meant as an insult, because I didn't get it..

As stated before, I have done 2 trans fixes this winter alone just for "popping out of gear" that were built by others. Plus plenty of other boxes as well. More than 30 under my belt.
I can't tell you how many boxes I get that were built by someone else, then come to me to get fixed.

Stock, HOt street, drag race, Pro-Mod, Pro-Stock.. I have done them all...
Mediola, 6-rib, T-1, Mitsubishi...

Good news:... none of them pop out of gear, or wear out prematurely.

Can't be that wrong....

I really wish we could have had an intelligent conversation about this.
While I hear what you are saying, the fact is you cannot adjust the fork so far that it wears out one side, while having it work fine for the opposing gear.
It won't stay in the opposing gear (thus popping out).
So, not only will it pop out of one gear, I agree that it has the potential to wear out the fork in the other gear.
However, Most folks don't get that far. They pull the trans because it pops out of gear.
So, if you have it set correctly, it won't pop out of gear, and it won't wear stuff out...
Can we agree on that?





2 fixes this winter? I'm on my second complete this week, got a 002 and a 67 to do also this week. I have well over 1000 t-1s alone under my belt. I'm the only Mendeola dealer in the central valley of Ca. Trust me when I say that that little out of adjustment is not the problem and the problem is the engagement teeth with the contact of the operating sleeve. So if it is set correctly, it def. can pop out of gear and wear other parts out.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2020 7:05 am    Post subject: Re: 1st gear pop out on lift off Reply with quote

No need to apologize and I value everyone's input. If everyone had the same opinion and ideas this place would be boring right! Laughing

According to "the book" the fork should be centralized in the groove of the operating sleeve both when the gear is selected and when in neutral. So we could safely assume the the fork or pressure from the fork does not hold the gear in place.

I do believe the fork is out of adjustment because it is definitely hard up against the sleeve on the second gear side but of course this might be only part of the problem.

Mcmscott have you seen the vid I posed with the first gear dogs? I am new to this but from what I have researched the peak on them seems defined and does not have a whole lot of wear.
I also tried to get a look at the teeth in the 1/2 sleeve but was only able to get it on the 2nd gear side....I'm assuming first gear side will be more or less in the same condition. See vid below.
Aren't those on the sleeve supposed to be pointed?..its not from what I see??

https://youtu.be/GrmDW3KRLAE

Thanks guys.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2020 7:04 am    Post subject: Re: 1st gear pop out on lift off Reply with quote

mcmscott wrote:
Ohio Tom wrote:
Yes, the fork should hold the slider home. That's how you know you have it adjusted correctly. When it holds the slider all the home for both 1st and 2nd gear, you got it right.
It's like splitting hairs.
A fuzz too far one way, and it pops out of one gear; too far the other and it pops out of the other gear...
A 1/32" of an inch can make a difference...



Sorry in advance for the reply because it is gonna be harsh,, but this is dead wrong. This person obviously has no idea how a vw transmission works.
If the fork held the operating sleeve against the gear it would scream and wear out very early. There is movement around the fork when the operating sleeve is in its coresponding gear, the operating sleeve can, and does move away from that gear. Normal operation. The only thing 32nd of an inch would do is cause noise and a worn fork.
Transmissions are "held" in gear by the angle on the engagement teeth on the gear x the condition of the operating sleeve.
Not saying that fork adjustment is not important, but if it was so bad as to pull it out of gear it would scream in the next gear. If that was the case then keep driving because the oppisite side of the fork will waer down and allow it to engage first gear all the way... But that is not the case. The engagement teeth on first gear are worn, the builder didn't catch it or thought the wear was "acceptable".


Sorry for the rant, but Ohio dude is so wrong we might as well call him Dale or Ray.


At least you can address me by my name... Tom... It's OK to do that...
I don't know Dale or Ray anyways... I hope that wasn't meant as an insult, because I didn't get it..

As stated before, I have done 2 trans fixes this winter alone just for "popping out of gear" that were built by others. Plus plenty of other boxes as well. More than 30 under my belt.
I can't tell you how many boxes I get that were built by someone else, then come to me to get fixed.

Stock, HOt street, drag race, Pro-Mod, Pro-Stock.. I have done them all...
Mediola, 6-rib, T-1, Mitsubishi...

Good news:... none of them pop out of gear, or wear out prematurely.

Can't be that wrong....

I really wish we could have had an intelligent conversation about this.
While I hear what you are saying, the fact is you cannot adjust the fork so far that it wears out one side, while having it work fine for the opposing gear.
It won't stay in the opposing gear (thus popping out).
So, not only will it pop out of one gear, I agree that it has the potential to wear out the fork in the other gear.
However, Most folks don't get that far. They pull the trans because it pops out of gear.
So, if you have it set correctly, it won't pop out of gear, and it won't wear stuff out...
Can we agree on that?


Last edited by Ohio Tom on Wed Apr 22, 2020 7:14 am; edited 1 time in total
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mcmscott
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2020 7:20 pm    Post subject: Re: 1st gear pop out on lift off Reply with quote

Ohio Tom wrote:
Yes, the fork should hold the slider home. That's how you know you have it adjusted correctly. When it holds the slider all the home for both 1st and 2nd gear, you got it right.
It's like splitting hairs.
A fuzz too far one way, and it pops out of one gear; too far the other and it pops out of the other gear...
A 1/32" of an inch can make a difference...



Sorry in advance for the reply because it is gonna be harsh,, but this is dead wrong. This person obviously has no idea how a vw transmission works.
If the fork held the operating sleeve against the gear it would scream and wear out very early. There is movement around the fork when the operating sleeve is in its coresponding gear, the operating sleeve can, and does move away from that gear. Normal operation. The only thing 32nd of an inch would do is cause noise and a worn fork.
Transmissions are "held" in gear by the angle on the engagement teeth on the gear x the condition of the operating sleeve.
Not saying that fork adjustment is not important, but if it was so bad as to pull it out of gear it would scream in the next gear. If that was the case then keep driving because the oppisite side of the fork will waer down and allow it to engage first gear all the way... But that is not the case. The engagement teeth on first gear are worn, the builder didn't catch it or thought the wear was "acceptible".


Sorry for the rant, but Ohio dude is so wrong we might as well call him Dale or Ray.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2020 3:55 pm    Post subject: Re: 1st gear pop out on lift off Reply with quote

Ahhhh....One more thing to add to the list. I love these cars!
Thanks again.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2020 6:36 am    Post subject: Re: 1st gear pop out on lift off Reply with quote

Yes, the fork should hold the slider home. That's how you know you have it adjusted correctly. When it holds the slider all the home for both 1st and 2nd gear, you got it right.
It's like splitting hairs.
A fuzz too far one way, and it pops out of one gear; too far the other and it pops out of the other gear...
A 1/32" of an inch can make a difference...
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2020 5:44 am    Post subject: Re: 1st gear pop out on lift off Reply with quote

Ohio Tom wrote:
Yep, bad adjustment..

Thanks for the reply.

Yup I was thinking it would be bad fork adjustment as the fork is hard up against the groove on the 2nd gear side..

One question though....Is the gear on the slider supposed to be kissing 1st gear permanently when engaged and adjusted properly as shown in this pic?


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2020 9:16 am    Post subject: Re: 1st gear pop out on lift off Reply with quote

Yep, bad adjustment..
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 19, 2020 3:17 pm    Post subject: Re: 1st gear pop out on lift off Reply with quote

I'm 99% sure a jig wasnt used to start with.

So I had some fun with my endoscope, the results :

1st gear dogs

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Vid here

https://youtu.be/OezD1d0Bnjw

When I engage 1st via the shifter (and yes it's going all the way) the slider and 1st gear faces kisses but as I let off the shifter it moves away a bit.


Also if I go between 1st and neutral, only some times it goes all the way home. It goes all the way more often when I go to 2nd and then straight to 1st but still not all the time.

You can also see in the vid when I wiggle the shifter back and forth gently in 1st, the gears come apart but does not pop out.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Vid
https://youtu.be/7VORvz-hirM

Below Vid of second gear engaged and move the shifter back and forth. Notice no play on the gear until 20sec mark where I actually was pulling for it to come out of gear.

https://youtu.be/Y1o3FLqvTdU

Below Vid of first gear engaged and the shifter moved back and forth while in 1st viewed from the fork side

https://youtu.be/PaTO60gphSo

Thoughts?
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2020 12:31 pm    Post subject: Re: 1st gear pop out on lift off Reply with quote

Really sounds like the builder didn't set up the shift forks correctly in the jig.

Very common if not 100% competent in doing this.

I have repaired 2 trans this year for popping out of gear issues.
All from improper adjusted shift forks.

You could..
Take the the gear box apart and push the gear stack out and just box that up and ship it to someone with a jig, then get it back and re-assemble.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2020 12:16 pm    Post subject: Re: 1st gear pop out on lift off Reply with quote

If you decide to take it apart yourself, I would consider purchasing this book
If it applies to your ride.

http://www.lulu.com/shop/tim-marshall/t1-irs-transaxle-book/paperback/product-24055997.html

Rick
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2020 4:57 pm    Post subject: Re: 1st gear pop out on lift off Reply with quote

Casting Timmy wrote:
I'd wonder what the slider and 1st gear teeth look like at this point in time.

You can also unhook the shaft through the tunnel from the coupler and see if it moves about the same from 1st to neutral and then neutral to 2nd. I'd probably put the shifter in first and undo the bolt and see if the trans wants to pull the hcokey stick in or out and that would tell you the shifter is set right as well as the shift rail wants to sit in it's detent.

There is also an IRS trans rebuild there here on thesamba if you start taking it apart you can follow along with that to put it back together. You can use an old cut up case as a trans jig and I know one builder that actually prefers it that way.


From what I understand you can see the 1/2 slider from through the fill hole, will this be good enough to get a look to diagnose? That is my next plan.

When I shift into all the gears I can definately feel when they fall into the indents and have a little play back and forth in each one with and without the shifter connected.

When going into gear, if I push it to where I get resistance then into gear and pull back to get resistance as if pulling it out of gear the distance the hockey stick travels is about 8.6mm.

This is the same for all gears with the shifter connected... I dont know how accurate this is for gauging shifter fork adjustment??
Hope you understand...
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