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swissarmychainsaw Samba Member
Joined: March 02, 2019 Posts: 279 Location: San Francisco
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Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2020 10:23 am Post subject: Tiico repair and smog in CA |
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Hello!
I've been shopping for Vanagons a bit, and I have found a couple that have Tiico conversions. I'm trying to figure out if the Tiico is worth the trouble before me.
Both of the ones I'm interested in have broken exhaust flanges.
One of them WAS in CA but is now out of state.
I called Chris at FAS and he said they don't sell the old style exhaust anymore and that I'd have to upgrade the cradle for the new style (making this a $2,000-ish repair).
I've been told by a reputable Vanagon repair/engine change shop that the Tiico executive order is messed up and getting a Tiico past smog could be a real challenge.
My question:
1. Anyone in California fix their broken Tiico exhaust successfully, and how?
(I'm assuming most have had something fabricated)
2. Anyone have Tiico smog experience in CA to share? Easy? Difficult?
Worth the trouble?
Thanks!
--Nick
Last edited by swissarmychainsaw on Sat Apr 18, 2020 9:54 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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khughes Samba Member
Joined: July 13, 2013 Posts: 747 Location: Phoenix AZ
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Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2020 11:36 am Post subject: Re: Tiico repair and smog in CA |
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swissarmychainsaw wrote: |
Hello!
I've been shopping for Vanagons a bit, and I have found a couple that have Tiico conversions. I'm trying to figure out if the Tiico is worth the trouble before me.
Both of the ones I'm interested in have broken exhaust flanges.
One of them WAS in CA but is not out of state.
I called Chris at FAS and he said they don't sell the old style exhaust anymore and that I'd have to upgrade the cradle for the new style (making this a $2,000-ish repair).
I've been told by a reputable Vanagon repair/engine change shop that the Tiico executive order is messed up and getting a Tiico past smog could be a real challenge.
My question:
1. Anyone in California fix their broken Tiico exhaust successfully, and how?
(I'm assuming most have had something fabricated)
2. Anyone have Tiico smog experience in CA to share? Easy? Difficult?
Worth the trouble?
Thanks!
--Nick |
Well, whether it's worth it or not is kind of your call. I don't have any experience in CA on the Tiico situation, although I did have my broken flange welded up in SF during the last major trip I took with mine. All of them either have been, are, or will be broken. Just a major design flaw.
However, Chris may not have discussed it with you, but you'd get much more with the whole cradle conversion than just a header repair. You'd get rid of most of the - IMO/IME - miserable vibrations from the Tiico, and with some work on the air filter you can reduce the loud annoying drone the original setup has.
Tiicos are all over the map as to how they perform and how reliable and long-lived they are. Some people love theirs, I hated mine for 13 years. The little extra power was nice, but that was it for me. I might've just gone with the FAS cradle conversion for mine, but after 55K the rings in #1 were heading South in big way (20% leakdown vs 3-5% on the other three) so I ditched it for a FAS GenV. The cradle conversion would've made the ergonomics much better (same setup the GenV has) but I had the coin so... _________________ '86 Westy FAS GenV Turbo (Marvin) |
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MarkWard Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2005 Posts: 17155 Location: Retired South Florida
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Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2020 11:41 am Post subject: Re: Tiico repair and smog in CA |
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Nick, it would be nice to see the broken exhaust. That’s probably not possible. If the cast iron exhaust manifold is broken, someone that specializes in cast iron welding can probably fix it. The rest of the exhaust is mild steel and is weldable.
The Tiico name is sort of like the word Kleenex. It describes a 4 vw in-line conversion. I have zero experience with CA emission testing, but from reading you need the CARB sticker. Otherwise it’s like peeing up a rope to get the van legal in CA.
So, offer accordingly. It could be quite a few headaches before you are able to use it. If that doesn’t scare you off go for it. Otherwise look to get one that is CA legal and plan to pay a little more up front. This will bump your post. _________________ ☮️ |
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khughes Samba Member
Joined: July 13, 2013 Posts: 747 Location: Phoenix AZ
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Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2020 12:00 pm Post subject: Re: Tiico repair and smog in CA |
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MarkWard wrote: |
The Tiico name is sort of like the word Kleenex. It describes a 4 vw in-line conversion. |
Some may use it that way, but the Tiico was a complete conversion kit from South Africa. It didn't use the diesel mounting system or bell housing. It's a 2LR motor not sold here - a 1.8L block and head with a 2.0L crankshaft and rods, with 2.5L pistons to compensate for the rod length and maintain deck height. It has a Motronic 9.0 FI system also never sold here in the US.
It's a *totally* different beast, and is not an engine configuration VAG ever produced. Built by Remtec, a rebuilder in SA. Hence why some are OK, some are trash, and some have gone 100s of K miles. Luck of the draw. _________________ '86 Westy FAS GenV Turbo (Marvin) |
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MarkWard Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2005 Posts: 17155 Location: Retired South Florida
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Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2020 12:27 pm Post subject: Re: Tiico repair and smog in CA |
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khughes wrote: |
MarkWard wrote: |
The Tiico name is sort of like the word Kleenex. It describes a 4 vw in-line conversion. |
Some may use it that way, but the Tiico was a complete conversion kit from South Africa. It didn't use the diesel mounting system or bell housing. It's a 2LR motor not sold here - a 1.8L block and head with a 2.0L crankshaft and rods, with 2.5L pistons to compensate for the rod length and maintain deck height. It has a Motronic 9.0 FI system also never sold here in the US.
It's a *totally* different beast, and is not an engine configuration VAG ever produced. Built by Remtec, a rebuilder in SA. Hence why some are OK, some are trash, and some have gone 100s of K miles. Luck of the draw. |
Kleenex is also a product. My point is the word Tiico gets thrown around alot when describing a 4 cylinder vw inline conversion, but may not be a Tiico or CARB legal. So buyer beware. I believe Kennedy Engineering had a CA legal inline 4 vw conversion at one time. No idea if FAS has a CARB legal kit. _________________ ☮️ |
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swissarmychainsaw Samba Member
Joined: March 02, 2019 Posts: 279 Location: San Francisco
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Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2020 12:43 pm Post subject: Re: Tiico repair and smog in CA |
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MarkWard wrote: |
Kleenex is also a product. My point is the word Tiico gets thrown around alot when describing a 4 cylinder vw inline conversion, but may not be a Tiico or CARB legal. So buyer beware. I believe Kennedy Engineering had a CA legal inline 4 vw conversion at one time. No idea if FAS has a CARB legal kit. |
This is actually a very good point. I believe ONE of them is "Tiico Kit" and the other is an ABA 2.0 with 1.8 heads from a Jetta. Which is similar, but not the same (?) I now very little about these right now. |
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khughes Samba Member
Joined: July 13, 2013 Posts: 747 Location: Phoenix AZ
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Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2020 12:48 pm Post subject: Re: Tiico repair and smog in CA |
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MarkWard wrote: |
Kleenex is also a product. My point is the word Tiico gets thrown around alot when describing a 4 cylinder vw inline conversion, but may not be a Tiico or CARB legal. So buyer beware. I believe Kennedy Engineering had a CA legal inline 4 vw conversion at one time. No idea if FAS has a CARB legal kit. |
I've never heard it used that way personally. The point is that Tiico and any VAG in-line conversion are totally different beasts. VAG inlines are factory engines, the Tiico is not, and it has a host of issues that VAG factory engines don't.
I would not be surprised if Tiicos are having CARB issues now since if you read the EO "approving" them, the parts used in the kit (Manifolds and ECU) are not the parts approved in the EO - the approved parts are Audi P/Ns. Do the look for that? I don't know, never had to go through the CA inspection so maybe some CA Tiico owners will chime in.
Tiico has been out of business for quite a while now, although FAS will still sell parts and/or rebuilds for the 2LR platform. FAS doesn't have a CARB certified kit at this time although from what I hear their diesel conversions could probably be waivered in CA. I think Stephens Autohaus has the only truly CARB certified I-4 with their 1.8T conversion. _________________ '86 Westy FAS GenV Turbo (Marvin) |
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MarkWard Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2005 Posts: 17155 Location: Retired South Florida
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Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2020 12:55 pm Post subject: Re: Tiico repair and smog in CA |
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A common DIY conversion was to swap out a 1.6 diesel engine with a 1.8 GTI engine. Most of the parts swapped over. It utilized the diesel bellhousing, mounting system as well as the exhaust. It was fairly straight forward.
Problem was there were a limited number of diesel powered vanagons sold in the US. So I believe Kennedy was one of the first to use a pancake engine bellhousing and starter with an adapter plate and flywheel.
There is a company no affiliation in CA that sells a 1.8 Turbo kit that they did get CARB approved. I believe the company is Stephens or something similar. That's probably more of a sure thing. Plus it would be a heck of a ride. From reading Subaru 2.2 from Kennedy is CARB approved. Not so sure about the Ford Zetec or Bostig conversion.
As I said, you need to do your homework and may have to jump some hurdles. I also must emphasize I have no experience getting a vanagon conversion legal in CA. I would be suspect if the seller said something like, "its really no big deal". Sort of like when the add says has AC, but needs a charge. You read through older threads and there are plenty of stories getting a stock Vanagon to pass smog. Good luck. _________________ ☮️ |
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Vanagon Nut Samba Member
Joined: February 08, 2008 Posts: 10379 Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
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Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2020 12:56 pm Post subject: Re: Tiico repair and smog in CA |
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It's too bad this hinges on CARB. I'm pretty sure a 1.8 8V exhaust manifold would bolt up to the Tiico head. If so, that plus a custom downpipe, 2.1 WBX cat, 1.9 WBX muffler might be more cost effective and/or less hassle over the long term VS repairing the original Tiico exhaust.
I thought maybe FAS had dropped this product but it seems they are offering it again:
http://www.foreignautosupply.com/parts-accessories...ptYBHeZOV4
Neil. _________________ 1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA
1988 West DIY 50º ABA
VE7TBN |
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khughes Samba Member
Joined: July 13, 2013 Posts: 747 Location: Phoenix AZ
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Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2020 1:02 pm Post subject: Re: Tiico repair and smog in CA |
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Vanagon Nut wrote: |
It's too bad this hinges on CARB. I'm pretty sure a 1.8 8V exhaust manifold would bolt up to the Tiico head. If so, that plus a custom downpipe, 2.1 WBX cat, 1.9 WBX muffler might be more cost effective and/or less hassle over the long term VS repairing the original Tiico exhaust.
I thought maybe FAS had dropped this product but it seems they are offering it again:
http://www.foreignautosupply.com/parts-accessories...ptYBHeZOV4
Neil. |
They did Neil. If you look at the second picture it says the original one is NLA and shows the new style that's built for the FAS mounting system. _________________ '86 Westy FAS GenV Turbo (Marvin) |
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82westyrabbit Samba Member
Joined: March 02, 2015 Posts: 969 Location: Ma
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Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2020 1:09 pm Post subject: Re: Tiico repair and smog in CA |
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Hi swissarmychainsaw. I installed a used Ticco engine in my van a few years. I don’t think I go that route again. It was easy for me and got my van running a lot sooner than if I had gone a different route. Compared to the 1.8 golf engine I removed the engine has a lot more vibration at certain rpm’s. FAS in Maine dose wonderful support for this conversation but when it comes to the fuel injection they are the only game. I my case I just custom made my complete exsust using a golf exsust manifold myself. I don’t think I would play the Ticco game in California. Your van is a turbo diesel now if I am correct ? Is there a problem with that engine other than power. Despite my negativity I am pretty happy with the Ticco engine in my van. If you decided to go this route their are a few of us here that have a experience with them to help you out. John |
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Jake de Villiers Samba Member
Joined: October 24, 2007 Posts: 5911 Location: Tsawwassen, BC
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Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2020 1:49 pm Post subject: Re: Tiico repair and smog in CA |
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MarkWard wrote: |
There is a company no affiliation in CA that sells a 1.8 Turbo kit that they did get CARB approved. I believe the company is Stephens or something similar.
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Stephan's Autohaus in Sacramento got an EO for the 1.8T. _________________ '84 Vanagon GL 1.9 WBX
'86 Westy Weekender Poptop/2.5 Subaru/5 Speed Posi/Audi Front Brakes/16 x 7 Mercedes Wheels - answers to 'Dixie'
@jakedevilliersmusic1
http://sites.google.com/site/subyjake/mydixiedarlin%27
www.crescentbeachguitar.com
www.thebassspa.com |
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Vanagon Nut Samba Member
Joined: February 08, 2008 Posts: 10379 Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
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Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2020 2:04 pm Post subject: Re: Tiico repair and smog in CA |
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khughes wrote: |
They did Neil. If you look at the second picture it says the original one is NLA and shows the new style that's built for the FAS mounting system. |
Ha. In bold print no less. Ok. Don't know why they show that image beside "in stock". Anyhow......
I was an "early" adopter of the single outlet manifold. Of course others have used it, use it, e.g. like the diesel manifold on the early swaps Mark referenced, but FAS obviously figured that stuff out way beyond what I was capable of. i.e. in my case, sheer desperation over failures with previous fetid versions I'd made provided real incentive to experiment further with a simpler design.
I sure like FAS' work.
Neil. _________________ 1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA
1988 West DIY 50º ABA
VE7TBN |
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Zeitgeist 13 Samba Member
Joined: March 05, 2009 Posts: 12115 Location: Port Manteau
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Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2020 2:25 pm Post subject: Re: Tiico repair and smog in CA |
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If I were in CA, I'd buy a Tiico van and just use its install bits to swap over to a TDI engine, and be done with CARB once and for all. _________________ Casey--
'89 Bluestar ALH w/12mm Waldo pump, PP764 and GT2052
'01 Weekender --> full camper
y u rune klassik? |
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termuehlen Samba Member
Joined: May 02, 2012 Posts: 994 Location: Redwood City
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Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2020 2:41 pm Post subject: Re: Tiico repair and smog in CA |
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There is an approved Executive Order for a Tiico conversion in California. More information about that here...
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=637404&highlight=tiico
In theory, if your conversion complies with the executive order, and it is still accepted by the State, you should be able to get it smogged in California. _________________ 1988 Westfalia automatic Subaru OBD1
1986 syncro tintop wbx |
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khughes Samba Member
Joined: July 13, 2013 Posts: 747 Location: Phoenix AZ
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Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2020 3:49 pm Post subject: Re: Tiico repair and smog in CA |
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Like I said earlier, I don't know how closely the smog shops look at things, but that EO specifies the Audi ECU part number 893 907 404 whereas the Tiico is actually an RSU 906 258.
Something the OP might want to know before deciding... _________________ '86 Westy FAS GenV Turbo (Marvin) |
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khughes Samba Member
Joined: July 13, 2013 Posts: 747 Location: Phoenix AZ
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Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2020 4:01 pm Post subject: Re: Tiico repair and smog in CA |
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Vanagon Nut wrote: |
khughes wrote: |
They did Neil. If you look at the second picture it says the original one is NLA and shows the new style that's built for the FAS mounting system. |
Ha. In bold print no less. Ok. Don't know why they show that image beside "in stock". Anyhow......
I was an "early" adopter of the single outlet manifold. Of course others have used it, use it, e.g. like the diesel manifold on the early swaps Mark referenced, but FAS obviously figured that stuff out way beyond what I was capable of. i.e. in my case, sheer desperation over failures with previous fetid versions I'd made provided real incentive to experiment further with a simpler design.
I sure like FAS' work.
Neil. |
I do to, the design and machining are top notch. I absolutely love my setup now. Like a different vehicle altogether being able to move seamlessly with traffic on and off the highways.
Never get CARB buy-in in a hundred years, even though it's way cleaner than my WBX ever was. With almost twice the power, and better mileage - but no, not good enough. CARB has done some great work, and the air in CA shows it, big time, but some of their rules just don't make sense. If it's cleaner on a dyno test, why should it matter what's in there? That I don't get.
Seems to me I mentioned that pic of the 6-bolt header to Jon quite some time ago, but it's still there. Fooled me when I first looked at it too _________________ '86 Westy FAS GenV Turbo (Marvin) |
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Vanagon Nut Samba Member
Joined: February 08, 2008 Posts: 10379 Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
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Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2020 4:42 pm Post subject: Re: Tiico repair and smog in CA |
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khughes wrote: |
Seems to me I mentioned that pic of the 6-bolt header to Jon quite some time ago, but it's still there. Fooled me when I first looked at it too |
It occurred to me later that it might just be good marketing. A sort of lost leader if you will. Tiico owner sees it, then they see the sexy set up below it.
swissarmychainsaw: as mentioned, if you can post pics of the exhaust issue, sure would help. You never know. You may get lucky with a repair to patch it up. I know squat about cast iron welding but someone here likely will. All I know is that it's a bit of a "black art" in part requiring pre heating..... via breath of a unicorn or some other voodoo.
Neil. _________________ 1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA
1988 West DIY 50º ABA
VE7TBN |
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khughes Samba Member
Joined: July 13, 2013 Posts: 747 Location: Phoenix AZ
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Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2020 4:52 pm Post subject: Re: Tiico repair and smog in CA |
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Vanagon Nut wrote: |
khughes wrote: |
Seems to me I mentioned that pic of the 6-bolt header to Jon quite some time ago, but it's still there. Fooled me when I first looked at it too |
It occurred to me later that it might just be good marketing. A sort of lost leader if you will. Tiico owner sees it, then they see the sexy set up below it.
swissarmychainsaw: as mentioned, if you can post pics of the exhaust issue, sure would help. You never know. You may get lucky with a repair to patch it up. I know squat about cast iron welding but someone here likely will. All I know is that it's a bit of a "black art" in part requiring pre heating..... via breath of a unicorn or some other voodoo.
Neil. |
They almost always crack in the actual down pipe, at the manifold flange. Mine did the same. They just like to keep cracking next to the weld, kinda depends on how good of shape they're in. Mine had zero rust, living here in the desert, so just metal fatigue from vibrations. The more rust, the less successful repairing would be is my guess. A lot of folks have built their own, or had them built which is cheaper than the FAS approach, but the FAS hydraulic system also gets rid of other issues as well for the extra coin. _________________ '86 Westy FAS GenV Turbo (Marvin) |
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swissarmychainsaw Samba Member
Joined: March 02, 2019 Posts: 279 Location: San Francisco
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Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2020 8:30 pm Post subject: Re: Tiico repair and smog in CA |
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khughes wrote: |
Tiico has been out of business for quite a while now, although FAS will still sell parts and/or rebuilds for the 2LR platform. FAS doesn't have a CARB certified kit at this time although from what I hear their diesel conversions could probably be waivered in CA. I think Stephens Autohaus has the only truly CARB certified I-4 with their 1.8T conversion. |
I talked to FAS and they said they no longer sell the original exhaust, and that you can buy new hanger, mounts and then an exhaust, which totalled something like 2K. At that money, I'd be all over subaru.
MarkWard wrote: |
...
There is a company no affiliation in CA that sells a 1.8 Turbo kit that they did get CARB approved. I believe the company is Stephens or something similar. That's probably more of a sure thing. Plus it would be a heck of a ride. From reading Subaru 2.2 from Kennedy is CARB approved. Not so sure about the Ford Zetec or Bostig conversion.
... |
Yep that's Stephans Autohaus in Sacramento. I called and talked with him, really good guy. He made me think the Tiico route is not where to put your money (at this point)
82westyrabbit wrote: |
.... Your van is a turbo diesel now if I am correct ? Is there a problem with that engine other than power. Despite my negativity I am pretty happy with the Ticco engine in my van. If you decided to go this route their are a few of us here that have a experience with them to help you out. John |
Yes, my Van has a TD, but the one I was looking at is a syncro.
I am really liking my van, but I do some remote family camping (with my suburban) and a 4wd Van seems like a great idea (except for the price).
I'm really beginning to love the little diesel. I could use more power for hills for sure, but I got 25mpg out of my last tank, and I ... well, I like life at 55mph!
Vanagon Nut wrote: |
...
swissarmychainsaw: as mentioned, if you can post pics of the exhaust issue, sure would help. You never know. You may get lucky with a repair to patch it up. I know squat about cast iron welding but someone here likely will. All I know is that it's a bit of a "black art" in part requiring pre heating..... via breath of a unicorn or some other voodoo.
Neil. |
It's a good point, but I don't have access to either of the vans I'm looking at.
I am just trying to figure out if "this is the kind of trouble I want in my life" LOL |
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