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Ulu Samba Member
Joined: April 21, 2020 Posts: 711 Location: CenCal
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Posted: Mon Apr 17, 2023 8:53 pm Post subject: Re: SS100 "replica" Kit Kar |
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In the past few days I have spent a lot of time setting this chassis up on jacks to level it and figure out where it is goofy.
And it is goofy for sure.
When I get this in the broad light of day and I really look at it, it becomes apparent to me that this chassis took a hit on the driver side nose at some point.
There’s also a considerable amount of weld draw on the driver’s side of the backbone, and it is drawing the frame head to the driver side and down slightly.
When I finally got some good measurements of the chassis in an untwisted state (which does not mean a relaxed state) I found it was shorter on the driver’s side wheelbase by 1/2 inch.
Ooooof!
I’ve come up with a demolition plan but it’s pretty sketchy. I’ll see if I can straighten this thing and weld it back together without making it worse. _________________ SS100 kit kar
1600cc DP |
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oprn Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016 Posts: 12633 Location: Western Canada
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Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2023 6:35 am Post subject: Re: SS100 "replica" Kit Kar |
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I often wonder about these kit cars and fiberglass Buggies how square the frames come out after all the cutting and hacking is done. To start with an improperly accident repaired pan is an even bigger handicap.
I used to have a dimension sheet for a stock pan but I doubt if I could find it now. I don't know where you are taking your measurements from but you need to pick points that are going to be consistent and accurate. A wheel base measurement may not be the best. While in the final outcome it really does matter you have to take into account that VW's way of correcting the toe in/toe out is that the spring plates are slotted and the wheels then move forward and back for that adjustment. That right there changes the wheel base.
The front wheels can only be depended on only if the front beam is straight and the trailing arms and spindles have never been tweaked in an accident.
If it were me I would fond a piece of nice straight pipe or conduit the same diameter as the front beam, bolt it up in place of the beam find the center, mark equal distance out from that and take all measurements from those points to the rear torsion bar housing. That would allow you to true up the pan without any interference from sketchy suspension parts or adjustments. _________________ We had the stone age, the bronze age, the industrial age and now we are in the age of mass deception and mind control for corporate profit. (The mass media age)
Last edited by oprn on Tue Apr 18, 2023 6:46 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Dale M. Samba Member
Joined: April 12, 2006 Posts: 20366 Location: Just a tiny bit west of Yosemite Valley
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Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2023 6:46 am Post subject: Re: SS100 "replica" Kit Kar |
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Full dimensions.... But marked for cut if done for FG buggy....
_________________ “Fear The Government That Wants To Take Your Guns" - Thomas Jefferson.
"Kellison Sand Piper Roadster" For Street & Show.
"Joe Pody Sandrover" Buggy with 2180 for Autocross (Sold)
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All suggestions and advice are purely my own opinion. You are free to ignore them if you wish ... |
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oprn Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016 Posts: 12633 Location: Western Canada
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Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2023 6:54 am Post subject: Re: SS100 "replica" Kit Kar |
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Dale M. wrote: |
Full dimensions.... But marked for cut if done for FG buggy....
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That is a good one Dale M but no diagonal measurements are shown. Not problem though as identical points on the pan should be the same when measured diagonally. Very important to keep the car from "dog tracking" on the road but I am sure Ulu understands that. _________________ We had the stone age, the bronze age, the industrial age and now we are in the age of mass deception and mind control for corporate profit. (The mass media age) |
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Ulu Samba Member
Joined: April 21, 2020 Posts: 711 Location: CenCal
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Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2023 10:24 am Post subject: Re: SS100 "replica" Kit Kar |
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Thank you fellows for your efforts. Before I do any welding I will set it up set it up so that I can detect the measurements correctly.
The method with the long pipe pipe through the axle mount is one I will certainly use before I do any welding. I’m not going to do that with the axle attached.
The front axle appears to be in remarkably good condition, because it came from a 1974 car and not this ‘73.
I took measurements off of that beam axle, and not from the hubs. I found the car was ~3/8 of an inch short on the driver side and I estimated it was over a half inch out at the hubs.
The chassis was as flat as I could get it before I took the length measurements and diagonal measurements, and all my measurements and told me what my eyes told me when I looked at this:
There is much draw where Somebody tried to patch this rust. They only got so far before they gave up.
I am going to cut way the bottom 1 inch of this headframe and foretunnel. I don’t wanna peel the entire bottom of the tunnel, & based on what I see through the holes it’s not gonna be necessary. A good scraping and rust treatment will be sufficient considering what else is going to happen with this car.
With a roadster body that has no overhead cage, it is a flying flivver. it’s gonna twist up right through the door openings no matter what.
To mitigate this I’m going to add additional frame rails (that I have not shown yet) under the car, which is going to lose me some clearance. This is not a Baja. I don’t care about clearance as much. r
I’m going to ditch the flimsy seat rails, and build a box frame structure that extends forward from the rear of the pan to the front of the seat and then tapers down to the floor at the front crossmember of the runningboard subframe. This will tie together the tunnel and the new upper frame rails.
It’s also going to have a cowl hoop and simple rollbar structure behind the seat, that will connect together with the door bars. Those door bars will be non-removable. _________________ SS100 kit kar
1600cc DP |
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oprn Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016 Posts: 12633 Location: Western Canada
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Posted: Wed Apr 19, 2023 11:33 am Post subject: Re: SS100 "replica" Kit Kar |
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My fiberglass street Buggy is also a bit too weak in the front/rear twist plane. Most guys these days put in a full roll cage and that is the end of that problem. I am loath to do that because in my mind you lose the original nostalgic look of a fun car and it turns it into... I don't know... something far more serious than Bruce ever intended them to be.
Most topless cars had some sort of frame reinforcement from the factory. Even the topless Beetle had a pair of extra reinforcing members under the pan. Yes they lost a bit of ground clearance too. I am thinking of trying something similar on my Buggy pan. _________________ We had the stone age, the bronze age, the industrial age and now we are in the age of mass deception and mind control for corporate profit. (The mass media age) |
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Ulu Samba Member
Joined: April 21, 2020 Posts: 711 Location: CenCal
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Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2023 8:01 pm Post subject: Re: SS100 "replica" Kit Kar |
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This car is just too small in the passenger compartment to put a tube steel frame around the windshield, and the ragtop is not tall enough to have overhead rails.
I decided to adjust the rear suspension and I found out today that I could not extract the left rear torsion bar. I didn’t try hammering on it with a sledge hammer yet, but I’m pretty sure the torsion bar is rusted into the splines.
I wonder if I can drift that one through from the back if I can remove the other torsion bar?
I still have the torsion bar suspension I took out of the back of a 72 bus. It’s pretty much the same as this but with tube steel arms and forged hub carriers.
I doubt if any of these parts are interchangeable. But that bus came apart readily and this car does not. Also the steel bushing covers were pretty rusty on the back side. These will want replacing, and I’m hoping the whole rear torsion tube is not junk. I banged on the frame with a hammer and everything in the back seems real solid. _________________ SS100 kit kar
1600cc DP |
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Dale M. Samba Member
Joined: April 12, 2006 Posts: 20366 Location: Just a tiny bit west of Yosemite Valley
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Posted: Tue Apr 25, 2023 6:26 am Post subject: Re: SS100 "replica" Kit Kar |
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Ulu wrote: |
This car is just too small in the passenger compartment to put a tube steel frame around the windshield, and the ragtop is not tall enough to have overhead rails.
I decided to adjust the rear suspension and I found out today that I could not extract the left rear torsion bar. I didn’t try hammering on it with a sledge hammer yet, but I’m pretty sure the torsion bar is rusted into the splines.
I wonder if I can drift that one through from the back if I can remove the other torsion bar?
I still have the torsion bar suspension I took out of the back of a 72 bus. It’s pretty much the same as this but with tube steel arms and forged hub carriers.
I doubt if any of these parts are interchangeable. But that bus came apart readily and this car does not. Also the steel bushing covers were pretty rusty on the back side. These will want replacing, and I’m hoping the whole rear torsion tube is not junk. I banged on the frame with a hammer and everything in the back seems real solid. |
IF you can get one bar out and the other is rusted in, you can use long rod and drive the rusted bar out from side that you can remove.... _________________ “Fear The Government That Wants To Take Your Guns" - Thomas Jefferson.
"Kellison Sand Piper Roadster" For Street & Show.
"Joe Pody Sandrover" Buggy with 2180 for Autocross (Sold)
============================================================
All suggestions and advice are purely my own opinion. You are free to ignore them if you wish ... |
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Ulu Samba Member
Joined: April 21, 2020 Posts: 711 Location: CenCal
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Posted: Tue Apr 25, 2023 6:39 am Post subject: Re: SS100 "replica" Kit Kar |
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Dale M. wrote: |
IF you can get one bar out and the other is rusted in, you can use long rod and drive the rusted bar out from side that you can remove.... |
Thank you, Dale. This is exactly what I’m hoping is possible, but I’ve never tried it before. _________________ SS100 kit kar
1600cc DP |
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oprn Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016 Posts: 12633 Location: Western Canada
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Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2023 5:44 am Post subject: Re: SS100 "replica" Kit Kar |
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I made the mistake of using the whole rear suspension out of a '68 Bus on my sand rail to change it over to IRS with a 002 transaxle. The Bus torsions bars are brutally stiff, they were designed to take a load up to 1 ton. The only way I could drive the thing afterward without back pain, kidney damage and chipped teeth was to put 10" wide ATV tires on the back and run them at 6 psi!
I kid you not! It's brutal! My Dr says I have a stress fractured vertebrae from falling off a ladder but the only thing I can think of that jarred me that bad was riding in this Buggy before I changed tires. _________________ We had the stone age, the bronze age, the industrial age and now we are in the age of mass deception and mind control for corporate profit. (The mass media age) |
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Ulu Samba Member
Joined: April 21, 2020 Posts: 711 Location: CenCal
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Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2023 6:03 am Post subject: Re: SS100 "replica" Kit Kar |
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I can’t imagine using the bus springs! Just the arms, but I have no idea if even they would fit. Anyhow I’m mostly just cleaning up the chassis and trying to decide my next move. _________________ SS100 kit kar
1600cc DP |
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Ulu Samba Member
Joined: April 21, 2020 Posts: 711 Location: CenCal
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Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2023 2:39 pm Post subject: Re: SS100 "replica" Kit Kar |
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Today I picked up the special 12 point Bit so I can get my IRS axles off. I bought new rubber bellows but the old ones just need cleaning up. They are not rotten as you might imagine, but quite flexible. I did not intend to disassemble the axles but only remove them from the car for cleaning purposes.
I’m going to disassemble the passenger side spring plate and see if I can get it off. I did a fair amount of prying on the other side, Without results. But I didn’t pry really hard. I’m afraid to crack this ancient German casting.
Of course I have no idea whether the inner splines or outer splines will pop loose first. I am thinking I might drill the end caps on the spring plates and drive a punch in there against the torsion bar.
I know this is worth the effort because the ride height was off From left to right in the back. I don’t have a way to measure the preload of the springs but that might be the thing to do first. _________________ SS100 kit kar
1600cc DP |
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oprn Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016 Posts: 12633 Location: Western Canada
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Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2023 5:44 am Post subject: Re: SS100 "replica" Kit Kar |
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The Bus torsion bars are a different diameter on the ends so no the spring plates will not fit the Beetle bars. I wonder though if you could cut the extreme ends off both plates, overlap them and drill them for a couple bolts. The 944 spring plates are like that and one bolt is eccentric allowing the ride height to be adjusted to some extent without disassembling anything. I will take a photo for you later to show how they did that.
The next thing you will discover is that the Bus CV joint is larger than the Beetle CV joint so you will need the Bus one on the outside of the axle and the Beetle one on the inside. Yes the splines on the axles are the same.
I always disassemble my CVs, clean and repack them with wheel bearing grease when they are out. Not hard to do at all. They come apart fairly readily of you turn the inner to the extreme and pop the balls out with a screwdriver. Then you can inspect them for wear. _________________ We had the stone age, the bronze age, the industrial age and now we are in the age of mass deception and mind control for corporate profit. (The mass media age) |
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oprn Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016 Posts: 12633 Location: Western Canada
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Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2023 9:15 am Post subject: Re: SS100 "replica" Kit Kar |
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Here is the 944 spring plate. The big bolt is the adjustable one. It should not be too hard to duplicate that by cutting up both spring plates and combining them.
This is the size difference for the CV joints.
_________________ We had the stone age, the bronze age, the industrial age and now we are in the age of mass deception and mind control for corporate profit. (The mass media age) |
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Ulu Samba Member
Joined: April 21, 2020 Posts: 711 Location: CenCal
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Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2023 11:04 pm Post subject: Re: SS100 "replica" Kit Kar |
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I didn’t get around to messing with spring plates today. I made some repairs to my awning due to the foul march weather. Also I made two sleeves and four new braces, to replace the old tail end braces (which were interfering with the axles.) Now I will have full articulation without smacking frame when the beast squats. I need to make two short braces and install them, and then I will take a photograph of the new arrangement. _________________ SS100 kit kar
1600cc DP |
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Ulu Samba Member
Joined: April 21, 2020 Posts: 711 Location: CenCal
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Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2023 6:54 am Post subject: Re: SS100 "replica" Kit Kar |
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So this is the new brace arrangement for the back of the frame. There is now plenty of clearance to the axles so they won’t strike the frame as they travel.
It’s all so much sturdier than the previous two brace arrangements, and does not put extra forces into the top of the shock towers. _________________ SS100 kit kar
1600cc DP |
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Ulu Samba Member
Joined: April 21, 2020 Posts: 711 Location: CenCal
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Posted: Wed May 03, 2023 8:04 pm Post subject: Re: SS100 "replica" Kit Kar |
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Still working to get the rear framing squared away. This was the arrangement I used to clamp the square frame rails to the rear torsion housing.
This is the welded bracket I am expecting to do.
I decided that the front end needed to come off so I could check the condition of the beam and get a better idea of how much twist is in the chassis.
Hoisting off the beam axle.
The adapter or appliance.
Checking for out-of-square and twist. It’s got both.
_________________ SS100 kit kar
1600cc DP |
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oprn Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016 Posts: 12633 Location: Western Canada
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Posted: Wed May 03, 2023 9:11 pm Post subject: Re: SS100 "replica" Kit Kar |
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Well, ain't that handy! _________________ We had the stone age, the bronze age, the industrial age and now we are in the age of mass deception and mind control for corporate profit. (The mass media age) |
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Ulu Samba Member
Joined: April 21, 2020 Posts: 711 Location: CenCal
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Posted: Thu May 04, 2023 2:12 am Post subject: Re: SS100 "replica" Kit Kar |
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Handy, perhaps, but not 100% dandy.
The chassis is visibly twisted, but the digital level tells me it’s only off 1/2 degree down at the left front. I am surprised how much that looks like over the width of the front track.
It is also back about 3/8” at the left front hub vs right.
I will put some indicators on the chassis, then cut a relief notch (or maybe six) and see how much it springs back.
A little bit of that appears to be in the appliance, and in the worst direction, contributing to the twist a bit. _________________ SS100 kit kar
1600cc DP |
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MrGoodtunes Samba Member
Joined: May 14, 2012 Posts: 849 Location: South Florida
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Posted: Thu May 04, 2023 9:15 am Post subject: Re: SS100 "replica" Kit Kar |
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Ulu wrote: |
... A little bit of that appears to be in the appliance, and in the worst direction, contributing to the twist a bit.
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Could you rotate the front of the appliance 180° so that its warp might compensate? It appears to be symetrical (theoretically). |
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