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8V 1.8L conversion with cooling fan issue
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Googledave
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 28, 2020 3:51 pm    Post subject: 8V 1.8L conversion with cooling fan issue Reply with quote

Hi all, my wife bought a 1982 diesel westy that was converted in California to gas. They used a 1992 fox motor and computer. Everything works except for the cooling fan. I checked the fan and both low and high speed work. How can I check the cooling fan switches. And if they do work and still no fan(assuming they work with the computer) how do I wire a manual switch to turn it on? Also, what coolant hoses do I order? I see, what looks to be a couple of y hoses and there’s a coolant hose that comes off the back of the cylinder head... are these all custom hoses or just standard vw parts? Thanks all
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 28, 2020 6:15 pm    Post subject: Re: 8V 1.8l in diesel cooling Reply with quote

You said the fan works on both high/low speeds, so I assume the fan resistor is good?

Like most other auto thermoswitches, yours simply open/close an electrical circuit when their temperature rises/falls past a set point. Page 19.5 in the Vanagon Bentley manual specifies what those open/close temps are. They can be tested in situ by simply running the van up to temp, or removed and tested in the kitchen by immersing the 'wet' side in a pan of hot water of known temperatures.

To test, apply 12V to one spade on a thermoswitch, and a test light from the other spade to ground. The circuit should close when the switch reaches the specified temp.

I don't know if the fan switches interact with the computer on a Fox gasser; they don't on a stock diesel Vanagon (there isn't one!) A look at the circuit diagram for a gas Fox would tell you this. Maybe the ECU is looking for a missing signal from the thermoswitches in order to activate the fan?

I'd certainly first try making the stock stuff work before jerry-rigging a manual switch, but to do so would only require applying 12V to the fan via a three-way toggle switch (off, low, high), with an inline resistor on the low circuit.
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Last edited by Jeffrey Lee on Sat Mar 28, 2020 6:27 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Jeffrey Lee
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 28, 2020 6:23 pm    Post subject: Re: 8V 1.8l in diesel cooling Reply with quote

As for the hoses, it's hard to say what you have--some pix would help. The VW 8-valve inline gassers are very similar in general configuration to the diesels, so the installer may very well have used many of the stock Vanagon diesel hoses. But, PO's being PO's, you could have anything in there.

In stock configuration, the hose coming off the back of the cylinder head (located on the very END of the head, nearest the FRONT of the van) is the heater supply hose. It runs all the way up to the heater core in the dash; a separate return line follows a similar path back to the engine compartment.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2020 5:04 am    Post subject: Re: 8V 1.8l in diesel cooling Reply with quote

It’s unlikely they are using the engine ECU to run the radiator fan. First step would be to remove the grill and see if you have the original 82 diesel radiator with 2 fan switches or a later radiator with one switch. They are located on the driver’s side of the radiator tank.


Coolant must flow through the radiator for the fan switch to operate. So with the engine running the radiator should eventually get hot starting at the bottom. Have you bled the radiator or checked for air?
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2020 9:13 am    Post subject: Re: 8V 1.8l in diesel cooling Reply with quote

From a slightly different perspective, I highly doubt the Fox ECU has any control over the rad fan circuit in the Fox.

To echo whats been said, aside from any custom coolant hose designs or such, the Fox engine will use the Vanagon cooling system design. e.g. use the Vanagon rad switch, rad relay.

My Bentley Fox manual (up to 1989) shows a thermoswitch in radiator (radiator fan switch) that looks very similar to the thermoswitch in the Vanagon radiator. Rockauto shows the same looking thermoswitch for a 1989 and 1992 VW Fox:

https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=933270&cc=1281529&jsn=2526

Rockauto also shows a "cooling fan controller"

https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=4664736&cc=1281529&jsn=2256&jsn=2256

but that's for the Fox interior fan? AC? Regardless, not relevant I'd guess and I doubt it connects to the Fox ECU.

Marks comment on the diesel Vanagon rad switch set up makes me wonder if the rad fan relay wiring was done correctly.

If the OP wants a cooling system diagram of the 1989 Fox, I can supply that.

Neil.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2020 5:14 pm    Post subject: Re: 8V 1.8l in diesel cooling Reply with quote

Wow! Thanks for the responses! The van has the original radiator with both thermoswitches. I did check each high and low and the fan works,although loud. I’ve idled the van paying code attention to the temp gauge. It gets just past halfway on the gauge and really no higher and fans never go on.
I don’t know if I’m just being sensitive, but it seems that the hoses are getting overpressurized. Again, maybe my subconscious mind is trying to find an issue. The motor runs beautifully though. I’ll take a pic of the engine tomorrow. Thanks again for all the great responses!
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2020 5:58 pm    Post subject: Re: 8V 1.8l in diesel cooling Reply with quote

In these ambient temperatures in your stated location, the diesel Vanagon in good running form will likely never activate even the low-speed fan at idle, let alone the high-speed. You'll need higher ambient temps, and higher engine revs.

Try climbing a steep hill, then pull over and keep the revs at a fast idle, listening for the fan. As you may already have heard, the low-speed fan is noticeable, the high-speed sounds like a Huey helicopter. It seldom comes on.

Assuming you've bled the cooling system of all air, and are having no problems with overheating or leaks, it sounds like all is working well.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2020 6:13 pm    Post subject: Re: 8V 1.8L conversion with cooling fan issue Reply with quote

The pressure of the coolant hoses is controlled by the cap on the coolant expansion tank in the engine compartment. Not the burp tank at the license plate but the pressure tank. The pressure is supposed to be maintained at ~14-15 psi.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2020 6:55 pm    Post subject: Re: 8V 1.8l in diesel cooling Reply with quote

Jeffrey Lee wrote:
In these ambient temperatures in your stated location, the diesel Vanagon in good running form will likely never activate even the low-speed fan at idle, let alone the high-speed. You'll need higher ambient temps, and higher engine revs.


@ Googledave

I can't speak to the diesel Vanagon cooling system but on both my Vanagons with a VW inline 4 gas engine (similar to Fox engine), the rad fan comes on after about 20 - 30 minutes of idling. I will also occasionally hold the RPMs higher during that time.

An infrared thermometer can help confirm if your coolant temps are within spec. e.g. at hose in engine bay that sends coolant from engine to rad.

For point of reference, at the time I converted each of my Vanagons to the same 2.0 VW inline 4 gas engine, each got a basically new cooling system. Even though one has some custom cooling hoses, on both vans, as examples, the rad fan comes on if I drive about 1 hour then idle minimum 20 minutes or when I drive in really busy stop and go traffic.

I think the fan has come on at high speed only once. And that was after a nasty long steep dirt road climb on a hot day.


Neil.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2020 8:12 am    Post subject: Re: 8V 1.8l in diesel cooling Reply with quote

Vanagon Nut wrote:
I can't speak to the diesel Vanagon cooling system but on both my Vanagons with a VW inline 4 gas engine (similar to Fox engine), the rad fan comes on after about 20 - 30 minutes of idling. I will also occasionally hold the RPMs higher during that time.
Neil.

That's true. I was incorrectly referring to the stock diesel, when in fact the OP has an inline gasser ...

A stock normally-aspirated diesel (non-turbo) tends to run relatively cool, and seldom activates the fan. The Fox gasoline engine will likely run a little hotter than that, and may very well trigger the fan after extended idling.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 26, 2020 10:32 am    Post subject: Re: 8V 1.8L conversion with cooling fan issue Reply with quote

Ok , so I finally have had a chance to look at my wife’s westy again... so I figured out which hoses that the PO used it’s a combination of original diesel hoses with 1981 date stamp on them and Dayco hoses. The original diesel expansion tank is also being used. So now here’s where I’m at. The hoses are old and exhibiting signs of age (obviously) so I’d like to replace them. While researching I’ve read that I could use the expansion bottle and hoses from a mk2 jetta. Ok great, except that when I looked up the coolant flow from a jetta to what is going on in the westy, it doesn’t match up. So I’m looking for some help. It looks as though the mk2 diagram shows the radiator with two outlets and one inlet and my radiator only has one of each. I found an ABA diagram the looks good but that shows the water flange on the engine with two outlets an one inlet and my motor only has one of each. Also, is there anyway of deleting the oil cooler on this engine? I’ve read that they are unreliable. Thanks again!
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 26, 2020 10:36 am    Post subject: Re: 8V 1.8L conversion with cooling fan issue Reply with quote

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 26, 2020 11:29 am    Post subject: Re: 8V 1.8L conversion with cooling fan issue Reply with quote

The ABA has a smaller hose to take flow of coolant via a nipple on the head to coolant expansion bottle. Your 1.8 8v diagram shows the second outlet from rad basically serving the same purpose.

On the ABA, the 2 outlets at flange on end of head take coolant from head to the rad and heater core.

To me, as it applies to the engine installed in the Vanagon, the Mk2 1.8, 1.6 NA diesel, 2.0 ABA, all have the same coolant path though the stock diesel does have a fill tank with a small hose going from it to expansion tank.

This might only apply to the stock Vanagon diesel 1.6 NA but @ the diesel heads: was there a restrictor in one of the smaller coolant hoses? If so, needed for the 1.8 8v gas engine?

image below is from here for an '82 US market CS diesel

https://volkswagen.7zap.com/en/usa/vanagon/va/1982-4/1/121-16020/

You can see how the "spider" hose off 18 flange on block takes coolant to the expansion tank. To me, that hose serves the same purpose as hose in your diagram from rad to coolant expansion tank.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 26, 2020 11:57 am    Post subject: Re: 8V 1.8L conversion with cooling fan issue Reply with quote

I'd suggest not deleting use of the oil cooler. But, if you left it installed and simply blocked coolant hoses connecting to it, that should work.

Some say an external cooler is better than stock, some say no. I've never checked oil pressure/temps, done a compression check on this engine but my 15º ABA, which is basically stock, never had head/pan off, is mostly driven in moderate ambient temps, but driven hard at times, still runs ok. I have no idea if it has piston oil squirters. I don't know how many "conversion" miles on it but have been driving it for ~ 12 years. That said, the engine does push a lot more weight, likely see's higher sustained RPMS than it did in a Mk3. The only issue I have with the stock oil cooler, which may not be about the cooler itself, is the O ring it uses to seal it to bracket. That O ring seems to allow an oil leak prematurely. Some have had success in extending the life of that seal by adding sealant to it at time of install.

Neil.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 26, 2020 12:31 pm    Post subject: Re: 8V 1.8L conversion with cooling fan issue Reply with quote

Thanks @vanagan nut! So then theoretically, if I did update everything to the golf/jetta 8v cooling system, I could just tee off the radiator return hose to expansion bottle. Thanks again
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 26, 2020 1:37 pm    Post subject: Re: 8V 1.8L conversion with cooling fan issue Reply with quote

Googledave wrote:
... theoretically, if I did update everything to the golf/jetta 8v cooling system.....


It sounds like you have the stock diesel Vanagon rad correct?

Can you post pics of the engine bay? Coolant expansion tank etc. ?

I don't think Jetta/Golf hoses will help here given that those cars have the engine mounted transversely.

I know little to nothing of the 1992 Fox coolant hose type, layout, but would suggest using Diesel Vanagon hose layout as a strong or direct guide. Use stock Vanagon diesel hoses if possible. The online image of 199x Fox I found shows you might be able to use (some?) Fox hoses, flanges etc. Maybe....... that said, you could certainly make something up from "off the shelf" hoses. BTDT on my last ABA swap. But.... at minimum, it involved a lot of time scanning the Gates hose catalogue. If your FLAPS is open, you could ask to view hoses they have in stock.

The stock Vanagon rad connections from long pipes and long/shorter heater hoses and control valve to heater core should remain the same. The remaining hose layout is done in, near, engine bay.

Googledave wrote:
... I could just tee off the radiator return hose to expansion bottle.


No. The top tank of Fox rad acts as a junction to take flow of un-cooled coolant from engine, right back to top connection on coolant expansion bottle; you want flow of uncooled coolant out from engine block or head to go in to top of coolant expansion bottle. Bottom outlet connection at that bottle connects back to coolant pump. This should all be done in the engine bay.

Neil.

199x Fox Rad etc. You can see what I mean:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


for 1987 - 89 Fox but should apply. It might make things clearer:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2020 3:46 am    Post subject: Re: 8V 1.8L conversion with cooling fan issue Reply with quote

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Here it is. Sorry it took so long, it poured yesterday day and I couldn’t get a pic. So this is how my wife bought the van. I haven’t touched anything other than giving it an oil change. I need to clean up a lot of wiring.....
Hmmmm, I wanted to get rid of the oil cooler lines to do two things: to clean up the mess of hoses and to rid of the weak link (water and oil cooler). I was going to add a air to oil cooler. Also since the hoses and bottle are from 1981 this would be a good time to revamp the system. Unfortunately, I don’t know anything about the vw cooling system. And with an engine out of a 92 golf/jetta/fox and cooling system from a 81 diesel, it sounds like a recipe for disaster when we finally are able to travel.
Also one more question, if I were to keep the diesel cooling system, the expansion bottle is $120 and doesn’t include the cap. In researching this morning I found an aluminum expansion tank for a 86-91 vanagon for basically the same price.... would that work with what I have? I guess I really don’t know anything about expansion tanks. Can I just use any expansion tank for any motor? Or are they all engine specific? Thanks again and sorry for all the questions...
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2020 10:55 am    Post subject: Re: 8V 1.8L conversion with cooling fan issue Reply with quote

Googledave wrote:

.... I need to clean up a lot of wiring.....
Hmmmm, I wanted to get rid of the oil cooler lines to do two things: to clean up the mess of hoses and to rid of the weak link (water and oil cooler). I was going to add a air to oil cooler. Also since the hoses and bottle are from 1981 this would be a good time to revamp the system. Unfortunately, I don’t know anything about the vw cooling system. And with an engine out of a 92 golf/jetta/fox and cooling system from a 81 diesel, it sounds like a recipe for disaster when we finally are able to travel.
Also one more question, if I were to keep the diesel cooling system, the expansion bottle is $120 and doesn’t include the cap. In researching this morning I found an aluminum expansion tank for a 86-91 vanagon for basically the same price.... would that work with what I have? I guess I really don’t know anything about expansion tanks. Can I just use any expansion tank for any motor? Or are they all engine specific? Thanks again and sorry for all the questions...


Thanks for the pic.

- search here under 1.6 NA or diesel vanagon, cooling system for tips, understanding of how the cooling system works. Basically, it functions the same as other vehicles of that era. e.g. the Fox. There are diesel Vanagon details though. e.g. pulley size(s) affecting how well it cools. Lots of knowledgable people here but my first thought is that crazyvwvanman ?Waldo? would likely have posts on that.

- IMO, the oil cooler isn't a potential weak failure link. Gasket? Yes. Parts quality? Who knows? Any part can be made poorly.

- if the expansion tank isn't showing signs of cracking, and especially if it looks like an actual VW part, keep it for now. Pressure test system, see if cap works as it should.

- hard to say off of one pic but that diesel Vanagon hose off the block looks ok to me. YMMV of course. Wink

- it sure looks like they used diesel Vanagon coolant hose set up

- The diesel Vanagon, gas 1.9, 2.1 use a fill and expansion tank as reservoir and ballast. The single expansion tank system, e.g. off a MK3, serves as both reservoir and ballast. Both designs perform the same functions, as do the caps, but in different ways.

- I'd keep the diesel Vanagon cooling system. You can still get DV hose sets. If you have a hose leak - failure on a trip, it could take the same amount of time to order in a Fox, diesel Vanagon, or even an "off the shelf" hose.

Just keep the cooling system in good shape, monitor parts, e.g. hose, long steel pipes condition (e.g. rear ends) stuff rubbing together that shouldn't, confirm temps with an infrared thermometer, use a good quality proper thermostat.

Suggestions though it sounds like you're on this stuff:

Make sure relay(s) is secure, not vibrating around. Improve hose from filter box to intake; that hose(s) look flimsy. If it leaks, issue won't show up as a performance thing. But, it will allow dirt into the intake. Clean electrical grounds, when assembled cover with dielectric grease.

That switch/wiring in engine bay could be a trouble spot. I see that one wire has a fuse holder, which is good, but IMO, the work looks a bit hinky.

Neil.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2020 11:38 am    Post subject: Re: 8V 1.8L conversion with cooling fan issue Reply with quote

You need to pay attention to how the main coolant tubes are connected to the engine and radiator. Flow through the radiator is opposite of the donor car. It's possible to mix them up.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2020 2:26 pm    Post subject: Re: 8V 1.8L conversion with cooling fan issue Reply with quote

MarkWard wrote:
You need to pay attention to how the main coolant tubes are connected to the engine and radiator. Flow through the radiator is opposite of the donor car. It's possible to mix them up.


This is especially true of Diesel Vanagons with the early style radiator? Excellent point considering the subject of this thread!

Neil.
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