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Distance between rotor and wheel flange, wide 5
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av8shunmeckaneck
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PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2020 6:06 pm    Post subject: Distance between rotor and wheel flange, wide 5 Reply with quote

Does anybody have the dimension between the rotor and 5 X 205 mounting flange on any of the typical aftermarket zero offset rotors? i.e. Empi, CSP, AC. Curious to see what other calipers would fit other than the single piston calipers that come with most of the kits.
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av8shunmeckaneck
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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2020 9:50 am    Post subject: Re: Distance between rotor and wheel flange, wide 5 Reply with quote

::BUMP::
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mondshine
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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2020 1:16 pm    Post subject: Re: Distance between rotor and wheel flange, wide 5 Reply with quote

I have the CSP front disc brake kit made for Things with stock 14" wheels.

I measured 43mm (~1 11/16) between the outer face of the rotor and the inner face of the 5x205 flange. I measured with a 6" scale, so this is not as precise as you would like.

I would imagine that with the rotors in hand, a man with your demonstrated fabricating skill could engineer brackets for whatever calipers you choose.
My CSP caliper brackets are 12mm thick, counterbored for the M10 SHCS which thread into the knuckles. There are no inner dust shields supplied with the CSP Thing disc brake kits.

Good luck, Mondshine
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KAmes
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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2020 6:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Distance between rotor and wheel flange, wide 5 Reply with quote

The AC Industries kit is 40mm from the outer face of the rotor to the inner face of the flange. It requires 15" wheels.
Going to put something flashy in there, are you? Cool
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mondshine
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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2020 6:47 pm    Post subject: Re: Distance between rotor and wheel flange, wide 5 Reply with quote

As Kevin alluded, changing to larger than stock diameter wheels opens a world of possibilities for rotor / caliper combinations, like drilled vented rotors, big multi-piston Wilwood calipers, and lug bolt circles, etc., etc.

I guess all of that Subaru power requires stopping power to match.
Good luck, Mondshine
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av8shunmeckaneck
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PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2020 3:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Distance between rotor and wheel flange, wide 5 Reply with quote

mondshine wrote:
I have the CSP front disc brake kit made for Things with stock 14" wheels.

I measured 43mm (~1 11/16) between the outer face of the rotor and the inner face of the 5x205 flange. I measured with a 6" scale, so this is not as precise as you would like.

I would imagine that with the rotors in hand, a man with your demonstrated fabricating skill could engineer brackets for whatever calipers you choose.
My CSP caliper brackets are 12mm thick, counterbored for the M10 SHCS which thread into the knuckles. There are no inner dust shields supplied with the CSP Thing disc brake kits.

Good luck, Mondshine


Thanks for taking the measurements Mond.

Thats the idea. Just need to know if it's worth even buying the rotors. The replacement cross drilled rotors (22-3862-B) are only $115ish and Wilwood Dynalite Forged Calipers are $105ish. Make some brackets and boom! 4 piston disc brake kit for less than the cost of the cheapest bolt on kits.

Looks like the Wilwood's need 1.71" between rotor and inside face of 5 x 205 wheel flange. 1-11/16" (1.6875") is mighty close to 1.71".
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


4 bolt wheels would make this a no-brainer but trying to avoid having to buy a set of wheels.


Last edited by av8shunmeckaneck on Mon Jun 15, 2020 9:45 am; edited 1 time in total
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mondshine
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PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2020 3:52 pm    Post subject: Re: Distance between rotor and wheel flange, wide 5 Reply with quote

My only experience is with my single pot Delco Moraine calipers (that are part of the CSP kit). I am satisfied with the improvement in braking performance over the original Thing drum brakes (a night-and-day difference), but I am slightly skeptical about the need for 4 piston brakes on a Thing which, even with Subaru power, might never exceed 85 MPH.

However, nobody has more difficulty than I do in defining the difference between want and need.

My questions would be:
Where is the best "bang-for buck" vented rotors, or more caliper pistons?
Is there any "real-world" advantage to cross drilled rotors?
If changing to non-stock wheels, what about larger diameter rotors in say-16" wheels?
I am only smart enough to say "I don't know".
Guys that have already done this should chime in.

Just as an aside, my CSP brakes consist of an aluminum hub, bolted to an "off-the-shelf" cast iron rotor.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



The hub itself is not very complicated. All of the critical dimensions could be gleaned from a stock brake drum.
A man with your fabricating skill with access to a lathe and a Bridgeport with a DRO could easily fabricate hubs to mate up with the rotors of your choice with any lug bolt circle you like.

Looking forward to lotsa pix!

Good luck, Mondshine
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av8shunmeckaneck
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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2020 12:55 am    Post subject: Re: Distance between rotor and wheel flange, wide 5 Reply with quote

Thanks a million Mond' for the added info on your setup. Is that how the CSP kit comes, as an aluminium hub and a rotor bolted on?

Not sure what added benefit there is to 4 piston calipers either. One thing I know though: there really isn't an answer to that. Depends on the total surface of the 4 pistons vs other kits' piston areas. Since nobody publishes that data for these kits I have to come here and ask you guys to measure how big yours are.

There was a thread on here with a rant by somebody that essential says "you're an idiot if you use cross drilled rotors and multi piston calipers". "Whatever!! It's looks badass!!" is what I say.

CSP kit 499-168-5205 comes with 44.5mm dia single piston caliper that comes to 2.41 sq/in. Wilwood Dynalite 4 piston caliper 120-6808 is 3 sq/in total. That's 24% more braking power assuming the pads are the same sizes (doubt it, couldn't find info for the CSP pads).

If I changed to normal 5 or 6 bolt pattern from some modern common car it would be very easy to install "stock" inexpensive slide-on rotors. If I wanted to go really cheap I could just machine the drum off, down to a diameter for a slip-on rotor. Most modern cars are vented (gap with vanes between the rotor faces) can be purchased cross drilled and/slotted for cheaper than the EMPI rotors.

To Mr. Nay-Sayer's point in the post I mentioned earlier, the wheels will easily lock up waaaaaay before you use half of whatever any of the calipers are capable of doing.

Drilled rotors and fancy calipers sure would look good don't you think?
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mondshine
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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2020 4:25 am    Post subject: Re: Distance between rotor and wheel flange, wide 5 Reply with quote

I chose the CSP kit because I prefer the look of the stock steel wheels. (I think that was in 2014.)
If I were to do this again, I would probably switch to 15" steel wheels that look like the stock wheels; now sold by a handful of vendors but were not available years ago. I would also consider the 5x130 bolt circle to make balancing easy.
Additionally, the selection of 14" tires is very skinny these days.

Im my case, with steel wheels, there is no benefit to pretty calipers because they cannot be seen through solid wheels.

The CSP pads are about 1.5" x 3". They are not a perfect rectangle, but call it 4.5 sq. in. of friction area.
I have purchased replacement pads from CIP1, because it seemed impossible to find these parts anywhere but online from VW parts suppliers.
Well it turns out that the same Delco Moraine 40-13010 calipers were used on the 1992 Pontiac LeMans 1.6L L4. The Pontiac calipers were manufactured by both Delco and GM’s Korean partner Daewoo.
Not meaning to sound like a chauvinist bigot, but my opinion of the difference in build quality between a French or a Korean product is as thin as a sheet of paper.
So on a lark, I ordered a pair of re-man calipers from Rock Auto, just to see for myself.
The Beck/Arnley 0790731 (Left) and 0790732 (Right) are an exact match for the calipers that came with the CSP kit on the business side of the caliper. The "anvil" side of the old CSP calipers would have to be re-used. The two halves of the calipers are connected with two M12 bolts.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The re-man calipers were $18.59 each (including pads and hardware), and they are Delco Moraine, made in France. There were others available for a few dollars more.

So you could walk into the corner auto parts store and ask for calipers, seals, brake pads, hardware, etc. for a ’92 Pontiac LeMans, and pay a small fraction of the price of “CSP” parts that aren’t made in Germany by CSP anyway.

Well, that's probably enough rambling for now; continued good luck with your project!
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av8shunmeckaneck
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PostPosted: Sat May 30, 2020 11:55 pm    Post subject: Re: Distance between rotor and wheel flange, wide 5 Reply with quote

Didn't realise those calipers on their own were that cheap. Good to know.

Thingaru really needs brakes soon.

Rear suspension mods may be another thread worthy too. It's setting level right now and the rear has quite a bit of positive camber.
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av8shunmeckaneck
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2020 11:33 pm    Post subject: Re: Distance between rotor and wheel flange, wide 5 Reply with quote

Mond,

What is different about the "anvil" side of the caliper? Is the LeMans caliper wider for a vented rotor or something?

::EDIT::

Already had Rock Auto open. Should have checked before asking. I can't add PNG pics but FWIW, the LeMans rotor is vented, so twice as thick as the VW kits.

mondshine wrote:
I chose the CSP kit because I prefer the look of the stock steel wheels. (I think that was in 2014.)
If I were to do this again, I would probably switch to 15" steel wheels that look like the stock wheels; now sold by a handful of vendors but were not available years ago. I would also consider the 5x130 bolt circle to make balancing easy.
Additionally, the selection of 14" tires is very skinny these days.

Im my case, with steel wheels, there is no benefit to pretty calipers because they cannot be seen through solid wheels.

The CSP pads are about 1.5" x 3". They are not a perfect rectangle, but call it 4.5 sq. in. of friction area.
I have purchased replacement pads from CIP1, because it seemed impossible to find these parts anywhere but online from VW parts suppliers.
Well it turns out that the same Delco Moraine 40-13010 calipers were used on the 1992 Pontiac LeMans 1.6L L4. The Pontiac calipers were manufactured by both Delco and GM’s Korean partner Daewoo.
Not meaning to sound like a chauvinist bigot, but my opinion of the difference in build quality between a French or a Korean product is as thin as a sheet of paper.
So on a lark, I ordered a pair of re-man calipers from Rock Auto, just to see for myself.
The Beck/Arnley 0790731 (Left) and 0790732 (Right) are an exact match for the calipers that came with the CSP kit on the business side of the caliper. The "anvil" side of the old CSP calipers would have to be re-used. The two halves of the calipers are connected with two M12 bolts.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The re-man calipers were $18.59 each (including pads and hardware), and they are Delco Moraine, made in France. There were others available for a few dollars more.

So you could walk into the corner auto parts store and ask for calipers, seals, brake pads, hardware, etc. for a ’92 Pontiac LeMans, and pay a small fraction of the price of “CSP” parts that aren’t made in Germany by CSP anyway.

Well, that's probably enough rambling for now; continued good luck with your project!
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mondshine
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2020 11:53 am    Post subject: Re: Distance between rotor and wheel flange, wide 5 Reply with quote

I do think the Pontiac calipers are wider, but my CSP brakes are now out of my life as that car was wrecked a couple of months ago, and that car is gone so I can't make a comparison.

I am taking a completely different approach with the brakes on my "replacement" Thing.

I can't begin working on the car until mid-December (after I switch our regular cars to Winter tires), but I have been busy accumulating parts.

I am going with 15" alloy wheels with 4x130 PCD and a similar sized steel wheel for the spare. The front rotors are stock Karmann Ghia, with Wilwood (2 pot) calipers designed for the Ghia caliper brackets.
I am keeping rear drums, but switching to late Type 3 rear brakes (with separate hubs and drums). I haven't decided on a master cylinder bore size; I will save that decision for the last minute. The main point is that everything (except the calipers) is stock VW (just not stock Thing).
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