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Ulu
Samba Member
Joined: April 21, 2020
Posts: 711
Location: CenCal
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 Posted: Wed May 13, 2020 6:07 pm Post subject: To Vent or to Canister? |
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I have a problem with fuel vapors, and I think I'd like to run a closed system with vapor recovery. This is a street car, and no racer.
Right now what have is a Jaz faux fuel cell without the foam, no baffles...nuthin.
It's a bottom flow with a vented cap so nothing to go wrong. Except it leaked.
There's CarQuest electric fuel pump with power from the master (battery) switch. It has a little filter on it, and some mismatched hoses. there's a clone AN fitting on the bottom.
This runs to the stock '73 VW fuel line, then 3 more bits before the carb. 2 rubber and one metal.
Under the hood, the tank sits on this angle iron frame, welded to the chassis.
I won't need a 12 gal tank on this car. I was hoping to set up something about 8 gals on a new frame, with top flow, and vented to a canister. |
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Dale M.
Samba Member
Joined: April 12, 2006
Posts: 20379
Location: Just a tiny bit west of Yosemite Valley
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| Posted: Wed May 13, 2020 6:39 pm Post subject: Re: To Vent or to Canister? |
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https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=736221
Even with canister you have to have a "draw", which means it has to go to air cleaner....
Also for fuel pump....
https://www.revolutionelectronics.com/Products/Fuel_Pump.html
Dale
_________________
“Fear The Government That Wants To Take Your Guns" - Thomas Jefferson.
"Kellison Sand Piper Roadster" For Street & Show.
"Joe Pody Sandrover" Buggy with 2180 for Autocross (Sold)
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Ulu
Samba Member
Joined: April 21, 2020
Posts: 711
Location: CenCal
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| Posted: Wed May 13, 2020 9:04 pm Post subject: Re: To Vent or to Canister? |
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The pump looks interesting but their tech specs don’t tell you what size the plumbing is or how many gallons per hour it will push.
I was thinking to buy some sort of aftermarket accelerometer device to add onto the pump circuit but I don’t know if that is practical.
I got a pitiful little air filter on this thing that is just a joke and I am going to replace it with a remote filter and a snorkel hose.
I was hoping to get some advice on a good tank to use for the street, which doesn’t have to be a race spec tank.
Right now I’ve got a plastic car with the plastic tank in it and I’m kind of the impression maybe I should have a metal tank. Most of the ones I find online seem to be bottom feed, and nobody uses bottom feed on a stock machine do they? That’s been obsolete since the Ford model a. |
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Mike E.
Samba Member
Joined: April 22, 2019
Posts: 110
Location: Torrance, California
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| Posted: Wed May 13, 2020 11:38 pm Post subject: Re: To Vent or to Canister? |
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| Ulu wrote: |
Right now I’ve got a plastic car with the plastic tank in it and I’m kind of the impression maybe I should have a metal tank. Most of the ones I find online seem to be bottom feed, and nobody uses bottom feed on a stock machine do they? That’s been obsolete since the Ford model a. |
Ford Model A and millions of Volkswagens |
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Ulu
Samba Member
Joined: April 21, 2020
Posts: 711
Location: CenCal
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| Posted: Wed May 13, 2020 11:45 pm Post subject: Re: To Vent or to Canister? |
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Lol...yes... lots of VWs got BBQ'd too, but I don't know if I should blame the fuel feed.
Right now mine would be a flaming death trap, with wires falling loose and gasoline leaks in 3 places.
You can understand my nervousness... |
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GS guy
Samba Member
Joined: December 03, 2007
Posts: 968
Location: Maryland
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| Posted: Thu May 14, 2020 4:56 am Post subject: Re: To Vent or to Canister? |
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https://fueltankparts.com/
Get whatever tank feed and tank design you want. Most tanks now run internal pumps, but I've not heard of an internal pump feeding a carb - all I've seen are high pressure EFI. CB performance makes a nice external rotary pump intended for a carb (I think it's an Edelbrock pump?).
Jeff
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70's vintage Deserter GS buggy - undergoing transformation to Super GS! |
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Dale M.
Samba Member
Joined: April 12, 2006
Posts: 20379
Location: Just a tiny bit west of Yosemite Valley
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| Posted: Thu May 14, 2020 6:07 am Post subject: Re: To Vent or to Canister? |
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Carter makes two rotary pumps that are acceptable for use in VW setup...
CP60504 and the P90091
Both about $40 at Jegs or Summit....
Believe FORD has a impact sensor (resettable) that was mounted in trunk of most of their cars (late models - usually up by left trunk hinge) so it may be available at local Pick-N Pull....
By the way where in Central Cal are you located?...
Dale
_________________
“Fear The Government That Wants To Take Your Guns" - Thomas Jefferson.
"Kellison Sand Piper Roadster" For Street & Show.
"Joe Pody Sandrover" Buggy with 2180 for Autocross (Sold)
============================================================
All suggestions and advice are purely my own opinion. You are free to ignore them if you wish ... |
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slalombuggy
Samba Member
Joined: July 17, 2010
Posts: 9147
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Thu May 14, 2020 6:23 am Post subject: Re: To Vent or to Canister? |
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| Ulu wrote: |
Right now mine would be a flaming death trap, with wires falling loose and gasoline leaks in 3 places.
You can understand my nervousness... |
Just a thought. Repair and fasten the wiring and fix the fuel leaks.
All modern vehicles have plastic tanks, no safety concerns there.
Personally I'd keep the 12 gallon tank for the weight and driving range. |
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Ulu
Samba Member
Joined: April 21, 2020
Posts: 711
Location: CenCal
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| Posted: Thu May 14, 2020 2:13 pm Post subject: Re: To Vent or to Canister? |
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| GS guy wrote: |
https://fueltankparts.com/
Get whatever tank feed and tank design you want. Most tanks now run internal pumps, but I've not heard of an internal pump feeding a carb - all I've seen are high pressure EFI. CB performance makes a nice external rotary pump intended for a carb (I think it's an Edelbrock pump?).
Jeff |
Thanks a bundle! I will check them out.
Also I am 100% interested in fuel injection conversion. Pump in tank would be A-OK. This won't happen soon. The DMV still hasn't blessed my title.
| Dale M. wrote: |
| ...where in Central Cal...? |
Clovis. BTW I have avoided pick-n-pull since it was built. I just realized I haven't set foot in a junkyard in 20 years, except to sell my old junk.
| Dale M. wrote: |
| ...Carter makes two rotary pumps that are acceptable for use in VW setup... ... |
Umm, would my CarQuest pump be a problem in the short term? It's strong and doesn't leak, but I thought it might want a bypass or loop-back to prevent overpressure.
| slalombuggy wrote: |
| Just a thought. Repair and fasten the wiring and fix the fuel leaks. . . . I'd keep the 12 gallon tank for the weight and driving range. |
That's where I am now: general rewiring and repairing the fuel system, so I can get tags on this car.
Serious improvements will wait until the state declares my car legit. Also I'll never want 12 gals in this car. This is a runabout. It needs to be light so it will move with only 60hp.
I may do some minor welding to provide an actual physical body mount, and to shorten the exhaust, which seems to be the only current rear body mount.
But that's another thread... |
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SBD
Samba Member
Joined: October 24, 2012
Posts: 3269
Location: SOUTH DAKOTA
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| Posted: Thu May 14, 2020 7:10 pm Post subject: Re: To Vent or to Canister? |
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| GS guy wrote: |
| ... but I've not heard of an internal pump feeding a carb - all I've seen are high pressure EFI. |
Chevrolet Vega. 
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"Just $99 down and $64 a month for 36 months buys you a brand new Volkswagen Beetle!"
| mark tucker wrote: |
| I wouldent waste $ or thyme on building a small motor. build it big so it dosent have to work hard.remember it's only as fast as your foot alows it to be unless you build a small turd then it just stinks as it squishes up through your toes when you step on it. |
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Ulu
Samba Member
Joined: April 21, 2020
Posts: 711
Location: CenCal
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| Posted: Thu May 14, 2020 7:57 pm Post subject: Re: To Vent or to Canister? |
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I want to pull the stock fuel line, but I don't know the trick. I need to read buggy building 101 or something.
My chassis is uncut, and maybe I want to run a 5/16" line right thru the tunnel. I also considered just using AN/braided hose all the way too as an initial repair to get me through the DMV inspection.
What I don't want is a 50 year old fuel tube that's been smacked about.
BUT, current chances of a DMV appointment are zero. It's gonna be a bitch when things open up again. And it may be that I have way more time than I think before that happens. |
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Ulu
Samba Member
Joined: April 21, 2020
Posts: 711
Location: CenCal
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| Posted: Thu May 14, 2020 8:23 pm Post subject: Re: To Vent or to Canister? |
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| Ulu wrote: |
| The pump looks interesting but their tech specs don’t tell you what size the plumbing is or how many gallons per hour it will push. . . . |
I misunderstood what I was looking at. I thought it was a controlled pump, but it's just the controller.
Looks like a good idea though I might not go for it just yet.
I have this theory that this car was sucking air and that's why it was fitted with an electric pump. The stock fuel pump is still there. I might flush it and see if it works.
My theory is based on the mismatched fittings originally on the bottom of the tank. They sucked air, and by the time I got them, they leaked gas too.
With a tight fuel line she may not need the electric pump quite yet.
At this point I just have to get the car running, leak free, and legal.
The new DMV is one block from my house. |
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Dale M.
Samba Member
Joined: April 12, 2006
Posts: 20379
Location: Just a tiny bit west of Yosemite Valley
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| Posted: Fri May 15, 2020 7:09 am Post subject: Re: To Vent or to Canister? |
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If 1/4 inch (6mm) stock line is in good shape just use it, you don't know the nightmare trying to get old line out, and trying to run new line in tunnel and secure it ....
Stay away from internal pumps, stay with external electric pump if not using stock pump on motor, it's easier to deal with....
If pump is 5/16 and your stock like is 1/4 inch just use some barbed fittings and proper sized fuel hose to change sizes to get correct "fit" of fuel lines and tubing.... The stock line will support engines up to 2000cc running full out 5-7000 rpm so "size" is not issue....
And use good quality clamps, EFI style....
Cal DMV is your worst nightmare, if you get drone behind counter that does not understand SPCN you will begin to understand what rage is about... Do not volunteer any extra information as it only confuses them more, and if they ask you a question think before you answer...
Dale
_________________
“Fear The Government That Wants To Take Your Guns" - Thomas Jefferson.
"Kellison Sand Piper Roadster" For Street & Show.
"Joe Pody Sandrover" Buggy with 2180 for Autocross (Sold)
============================================================
All suggestions and advice are purely my own opinion. You are free to ignore them if you wish ... |
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Ulu
Samba Member
Joined: April 21, 2020
Posts: 711
Location: CenCal
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| Posted: Fri May 15, 2020 11:33 am Post subject: Re: To Vent or to Canister? |
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The DMV is the main reason this car isn't farther along. I am afraid they will not consider the legal status of the car before it entered California. Also I didn't know about the limited quantity of applications available. Hopefully, a previously licensed kit kar won't be a special construction.
Also, because of the condition of my chassis, I may consider buying another car just for the current reg and swap parts. There was, of course, hidden rust.
It is entirely possible I will skate thru it all, but I consider it equally likely I will
just fix this the minimum and flip it. I don't want to fight with the DMV for years for a bloody VW.
I'd take a loss on the car to avoid that, but it runs so well I might not have to get totally scalped. |
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Ulu
Samba Member
Joined: April 21, 2020
Posts: 711
Location: CenCal
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| Posted: Fri May 15, 2020 12:04 pm Post subject: Re: To Vent or to Canister? |
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| Dale M. wrote: |
If 1/4 inch (6mm) stock line is in good shape just use it . . .
. . . If pump is 5/16 and your stock like is 1/4 inch just use some barbed fittings. |
I've got AN6 to 1/4 pipe barb, then 1/4 pipe barb to to 6mm od tube from VW.
I have no idea what shape the tube is in, BUT "fabricator" cut into tunnel with drills and chisels and saws.
It could have a big kink and be about to crack thru. When I got the car there was gas in the tunnel, but I think it leaked at the AN6 and ran thru rusty pinholes about the hat.
But I thought I could snake a braided line thru the tunnel, and cut my own access thru the bottom of the pan. What would you do? |
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Dale M.
Samba Member
Joined: April 12, 2006
Posts: 20379
Location: Just a tiny bit west of Yosemite Valley
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| Posted: Fri May 15, 2020 1:36 pm Post subject: Re: To Vent or to Canister? |
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| Ulu wrote: |
| Dale M. wrote: |
If 1/4 inch (6mm) stock line is in good shape just use it . . .
. . . If pump is 5/16 and your stock like is 1/4 inch just use some barbed fittings. |
I've got AN6 to 1/4 pipe barb, then 1/4 pipe barb to to 6mm od tube from VW.
I have no idea what shape the tube is in, BUT "fabricator" cut into tunnel with drills and chisels and saws.
It could have a big kink and be about to crack thru. When I got the car there was gas in the tunnel, but I think it leaked at the AN6 and ran thru rusty pinholes about the hat.
But I thought I could snake a braided line thru the tunnel, and cut my own access thru the bottom of the pan. What would you do? |
IF you are going to access tunnel, I would use 3 inch hole saw and go in from side (passenger) and then snake new line in (5/16 aluminum) from JEGS or Summit, and use grommets where it exits tunnel and clamp line with rubber Adel clamps and the weld the plugs back in that were cut with hole saw....
Dale
_________________
“Fear The Government That Wants To Take Your Guns" - Thomas Jefferson.
"Kellison Sand Piper Roadster" For Street & Show.
"Joe Pody Sandrover" Buggy with 2180 for Autocross (Sold)
============================================================
All suggestions and advice are purely my own opinion. You are free to ignore them if you wish ... |
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Ulu
Samba Member
Joined: April 21, 2020
Posts: 711
Location: CenCal
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| Posted: Fri May 15, 2020 6:07 pm Post subject: Re: To Vent or to Canister? |
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| That sounds good, but why aluminum tube? |
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Dale M.
Samba Member
Joined: April 12, 2006
Posts: 20379
Location: Just a tiny bit west of Yosemite Valley
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| Posted: Fri May 15, 2020 6:35 pm Post subject: Re: To Vent or to Canister? |
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| Ulu wrote: |
| That sounds good, but why aluminum tube? |
Because its soft, does not rust and its easy to form.... And Its what most performance car builders use....
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-g2516
Dale
_________________
“Fear The Government That Wants To Take Your Guns" - Thomas Jefferson.
"Kellison Sand Piper Roadster" For Street & Show.
"Joe Pody Sandrover" Buggy with 2180 for Autocross (Sold)
============================================================
All suggestions and advice are purely my own opinion. You are free to ignore them if you wish ... |
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Ulu
Samba Member
Joined: April 21, 2020
Posts: 711
Location: CenCal
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| Posted: Sat May 16, 2020 2:25 pm Post subject: Re: To Vent or to Canister? |
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I'm going to inspect the tunnel with an inspection camera to see what's inside.
I'll remove the pedal cluster too, as I think it needs attention and I need to see the clutch cable clevis and hook.
The old shifter hole is plated over, and this is where I fear the fuel line might have been damaged or loosened from its tabs, as it seems a little too floppy when the grommet is removed. Maybe it's solid enough, but I will try to look.
If I see anything that might become a crack I will abandon it for now.
Otherwise I've got new rubber lines to reinstall everywhere, and I bought enough to do everything custom twice. I'll put the canister over the trans, and the lines will meet there. Purge, vacuum, and vent. I gotta get that vent line thru the tunnel, and I was considering...I know you already thought of this, using the fuel line for vent and running the aluminum line.
But I don't have a canister or vent fittings yet. |
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Dale M.
Samba Member
Joined: April 12, 2006
Posts: 20379
Location: Just a tiny bit west of Yosemite Valley
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| Posted: Sat May 16, 2020 2:41 pm Post subject: Re: To Vent or to Canister? |
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Inside the tunnel...
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=706173
Dale
_________________
“Fear The Government That Wants To Take Your Guns" - Thomas Jefferson.
"Kellison Sand Piper Roadster" For Street & Show.
"Joe Pody Sandrover" Buggy with 2180 for Autocross (Sold)
============================================================
All suggestions and advice are purely my own opinion. You are free to ignore them if you wish ... |
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