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36 hp timing issue / not running right
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vee dub dan
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PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2020 2:31 pm    Post subject: 36 hp timing issue / not running right Reply with quote

So in case this matter, I pulled my car out of the garage from winter which goes up a steep grass hill, no issues. I put it on ramps and leveled it out to change the transmission oil, and it got rained on outside. The next day I tried to take it for a drive and have no power at all, if you hold the gas down it dies.

All 4 cylinders are getting fuel and spark. Compression is good, valves are good.

We found my distributor rotor has a decent amount of backlash, see this video. It moves a decent amount without the rotor moving.

Link


I had it static timed as it should be, with a VJU4BR distributor. Timing light shows it jumping all around. We advanced it some to see if it behaved different, and it did not. Video of timing, it's a little hard to see but it's jumping from TDC to the mark being almost where the belt touches the pulley.

Link


Is my distributor drive gear on the crank worn, or is it as simple as bad points or condenser?
Any thoughts?
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leowagen
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PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2020 8:07 pm    Post subject: Re: 36 hp timing issue / not running right Reply with quote

I had similar issues... I'll describe what I did...

I first removed the fuel pump. Throught its hole in the case you can inspect the brass dist gear. Mine was ok. Not cracked, pitted or with strange things in its helix.

I then checked my distributor. Had its internals sticking all over. Centrifugal plate weights were stuck in aged gunk. I sanded with very fine grit sand paper its sliding surfaces. My vacuum advance canister was not working. So I managed to find a new one. Being inside there new point and condenser. Cheched the point lobes (had an issue in another beetle: a worn cam was driving me crazy. I learnt I had to adjust my point gap using this worn lobe.

Check distributor drive shaft end play. Its shims in the lower end might be missing. Check the intrrface between distributor lower shaft gear and its input shaft. My dizzy was not reaching properly the drive slot in the drive shaft iside the case. No matter how nicely I static timed it it would cough and sneeze when fired on.

Last but not least, rotor, cap, cables and plugs. One or more plugs might got some varnish from unburnt fuel andsome oil that reaches past a worn ring.... some wire brush in the sparks could have magical effects in how the motor runs!

Good luck and stay safe!
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ecallaway
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PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2020 8:28 pm    Post subject: Re: 36 hp timing issue / not running right Reply with quote

I have no clue but will put in my two cents to get the ball rolling.

Fuel filter clogged?
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vee dub dan
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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2020 4:36 am    Post subject: Re: 36 hp timing issue / not running right Reply with quote

ecallaway wrote:
I have no clue but will put in my two cents to get the ball rolling.

Fuel filter clogged?

Filter and all rubber fuel line are brand new


leowagen wrote:
I had similar issues... I'll describe what I did...

I first removed the fuel pump. Throught its hole in the case you can inspect the brass dist gear. Mine was ok. Not cracked, pitted or with strange things in its helix.

I then checked my distributor. Had its internals sticking all over. Centrifugal plate weights were stuck in aged gunk. I sanded with very fine grit sand paper its sliding surfaces. My vacuum advance canister was not working. So I managed to find a new one. Being inside there new point and condenser. Cheched the point lobes (had an issue in another beetle: a worn cam was driving me crazy. I learnt I had to adjust my point gap using this worn lobe.

Check distributor drive shaft end play. Its shims in the lower end might be missing. Check the intrrface between distributor lower shaft gear and its input shaft. My dizzy was not reaching properly the drive slot in the drive shaft iside the case. No matter how nicely I static timed it it would cough and sneeze when fired on.

Last but not least, rotor, cap, cables and plugs. One or more plugs might got some varnish from unburnt fuel andsome oil that reaches past a worn ring.... some wire brush in the sparks could have magical effects in how the motor runs!

Good luck and stay safe!


I will try these suggestions, it felt like 1 & 2 we're not firing so I cleaned and checked the spark plugs gaps already.

Thanks for some things to look for!
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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2020 9:03 am    Post subject: Re: 36 hp timing issue / not running right Reply with quote

There is play that is designed into the gear interaction. I doubt anything is worn there. Never seen that happen, ever.

If your timing is jumping around, it may be the timing light. Have you tried a different light?

Also, some plug wires are hard to get a good signal from, maybe try a different wire, to time it.

Just off of the sound. It sounds like a fuel issue. Can you keep it running by spraying shots of starting fluid into the carb?
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Snort
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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2020 11:16 am    Post subject: Re: 36 hp timing issue / not running right Reply with quote

Pull the idle jet out and blow it out with compressed air. Plug one of the side holes and blow from the other so that any debris gets pushed out.
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Bub
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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2020 12:36 pm    Post subject: Re: 36 hp timing issue / not running right Reply with quote

I think my 36hp had that problem right after I got finished rebuilding it- and actually before that.
So I started fresh - point, condenser, perfectly clean carb etc. I found that my distributor -VJrBR25- was a little gummy/ bouncy/ sticky and sometimes I'd get a full 21-25* advance below 2k.
So I took it apart, cleaned and lubed everything and filed a little bit off the weights. Adjusting the weight is a trial and error thing, but I've done it a bizillion times and somehow it works.
I still have to set it TOO FAR advanced - I'm at just about 12* BTDC or it runs like shit. Runs even better 15* 'ish advanced but I lose a ton of power.
And then the carb. I bought an NOS carb and it still took a week to get it dialed in decently.
Lastly; seems like 36hp tuning is 150% completely pointless if the engine isn't really hot. Don't touch anything when it's cold.

A new condenser never hurts; it fools you because they last forever and can get glitchy long before you ever think about replacing it. Mine was toast.
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Danwvw
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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2020 12:55 pm    Post subject: Re: 36 hp timing issue / not running right Reply with quote

Given the scenarios it's likely a fuel blockage at the fuel shutoff valve maybe give it a turn or try it on reserve.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 01, 2020 6:19 pm    Post subject: Re: 36 hp timing issue / not running right Reply with quote

Any updates?
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vee dub dan
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 01, 2020 6:20 pm    Post subject: Re: 36 hp timing issue / not running right Reply with quote

So I got busy and this got put on the back burner. I tried a different distributor, points, rotor, etc and no change. Tonight i pulled the main jet from the carb and it was plugged up. Cleaned it out and it's idling great! Still need to test drive but I was able to rev it and let it idle when I couldn't before.

Thanks for everyone's help and ideas!
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cbki30
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 18, 2020 3:44 pm    Post subject: Re: 36 hp timing issue / not running right Reply with quote

Just came across this thread as searching for similar advice on my 57 oval. Seems like I am having the same problems. Just wondering , is there any update since your last post ? My car is currently with my mechanic and to date we have replaced fuel pump with refurb unit, changed points , checked HT leads. Noticed some sooting on plugs so they were cleaned. Spark and compression ok and seems fuel getting to where it should be. When changed vacuum cannister it actually ran worse. Currently timed at 7.5 btc static. Can manage to get idle but any revs or load and end up having rough running and idle. Mechanic has now cleaned out carb and found some black pieces floating around. Back to testing tomorrow. This whole issue stemmed from some rough starting when hot; thought it was a fuel pump issue so hence why decided to rebuild pump. Then ended up getting a further replacement rebuilt unit as issues still present. Totally fed up with my car just now.
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vee dub dan
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 18, 2020 3:48 pm    Post subject: Re: 36 hp timing issue / not running right Reply with quote

cbki30 wrote:
Just came across this thread as searching for similar advice on my 57 oval. Seems like I am having the same problems. Just wondering , is there any update since your last post ? My car is currently with my mechanic and to date we have replaced fuel pump with refurb unit, changed points , checked HT leads. Noticed some sooting on plugs so they were cleaned. Spark and compression ok and seems fuel getting to where it should be. When changed vacuum cannister it actually ran worse. Currently timed at 7.5 btc static. Can manage to get idle but any revs or load and end up having rough running and idle. Mechanic has now cleaned out carb and found some black pieces floating around. Back to testing tomorrow. This whole issue stemmed from some rough starting when hot; thought it was a fuel pump issue so hence why decided to rebuild pump. Then ended up getting a further replacement rebuilt unit as issues still present. Totally fed up with my car just now.


The main jet was clogged and I had a small sputter or two while driving but it's been good! Hopefully the cleaned out carb does it for you!
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jborregoy2k
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2021 4:33 pm    Post subject: Re: 36 hp timing issue / not running right Reply with quote

Check the pickup of the timing light, I had similar jumping problems in the light (not the engine) and it was solved “hanging” the cable up a bit with the pickup (the pickup cable around the lid hinge) so it was separated from the other ignition cable and maybe getting better signal.


VW_Jimbo wrote:
There is play that is designed into the gear interaction. I doubt anything is worn there. Never seen that happen, ever.

If your timing is jumping around, it may be the timing light. Have you tried a different light?

Also, some plug wires are hard to get a good signal from, maybe try a different wire, to time it.

Just off of the sound. It sounds like a fuel issue. Can you keep it running by spraying shots of starting fluid into the carb?
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