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H2OSB
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Joined: April 14, 2013
Posts: 1294
Location: Modesto, CA
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
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 Posted: Wed May 20, 2020 6:22 am Post subject: Re: Inside Vintage Speed exhaust |
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Ah!.....yes....I see that one now. The first link to the equal link header..... Its two kits....an actual header with equal lengths.....added to the muffler kit.
Ray |
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Zed999
Samba Member
Joined: March 04, 2018
Posts: 1248
Location: UK
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| Posted: Wed May 20, 2020 7:45 am Post subject: Re: Inside Vintage Speed exhaust |
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Sadly mines a bus and I need to keep my heater boxes. Fortunately the engine is so mild that it should be quite happy farting into a big tin can. |
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W1K1
Samba Member
Joined: March 04, 2004
Posts: 4921
Location: Southern AB
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| Posted: Wed May 20, 2020 8:30 am Post subject: Re: Inside Vintage Speed exhaust |
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| Alstrup wrote: |
| W1K1 wrote: |
I'd like to know how the O2 bung relates there too.
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There is a little difference when compared to a tailpipe measurement. (Actually mid muffle measurement, because the sniffer inlet is just inside the muffler to prevent polluting the signal from pulsing.) If you want/need to jet to a perfect setting you will need to do it from the tail pipe side. If a ball park is ok the side measurement is fine.
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just to clarify, the type 3 exhaust has the plug on each end, and the tail pipe on the left side. are you saying to take the reading from the left O2 plug? or from the actual tail pipe for best results?
I have tried both ends in the past, the passenger side always reads richer, I thought it was because of the short tailpipe
_________________
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1973 super
1965 squareback 1500E
1971 bay window westy- subi swap |
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Alstrup
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Joined: July 12, 2007
Posts: 7219
Location: Videbaek Denmark
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| Posted: Wed May 20, 2020 9:48 am Post subject: Re: Inside Vintage Speed exhaust |
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| From the tail pipe, but at least 17-20" in is best. |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Wed May 20, 2020 8:15 pm Post subject: Re: Inside Vintage Speed exhaust |
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| Alstrup wrote: |
| From the tail pipe, but at least 17-20" in is best. |
Yes...even the stock type 4 mufflers were this way. You needed the long armored probe or you got oxygen from the reversion pulse. You needed to be in teh center chamber to get a real reading. Ray |
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Zed999
Samba Member
Joined: March 04, 2018
Posts: 1248
Location: UK
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| Posted: Thu May 21, 2020 12:01 am Post subject: Re: Inside Vintage Speed exhaust |
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| raygreenwood wrote: |
| Alstrup wrote: |
| From the tail pipe, but at least 17-20" in is best. |
Yes...even the stock type 4 mufflers were this way. You needed the long armored probe or you got oxygen from the reversion pulse. You needed to be in teh center chamber to get a real reading. Ray |
I spent hours yesterday looking for photos of the insides of a typical type-1 engine VS exhaust to no avail.
The type-4 offering with the twin tailpipes on one end...the tail pipes can't possibly extend into the exhaust because the internals from 1&3 are in the way. Seems like the fitting just above the tailpipes would be the better one.
I suspect other than the balanced systems for Beetles VS exhausts are all much the same internally. They all have the two big circular pages inside. If the tailpipes are from the centre section they make a "pulsier" noise than the end plate tailpipe ones which makes sense.
There are a series of short 30 second vids with Mr Lee demonstrating his exhausts up on a flat roof (including a stock exhaust) on youtube which are quite interesting. |
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Zed999
Samba Member
Joined: March 04, 2018
Posts: 1248
Location: UK
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| Posted: Mon May 25, 2020 11:35 am Post subject: Re: Inside Vintage Speed exhaust |
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| Alstrup wrote: |
Initially the fourtuned header will increase mid/upper rpm power, but your engine is limited by other things, so no, the difference would be minor.
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I fitted the VS exhaust today and went for a drive. Where it used to start feeling strangled at 45-50mph in 3rd, and made me feel baaad the odd time I tried to to 55mph, now it hits 60mph and still feels free. This is exactly what I wanted, it's behaving like a stock 2L but with "more" everywhere. It feels/sounds less clogged at all revs above 2,000 which I hardly dared hope for so I'll call that a bonus. One day when the virus allows I'll get a run on some rollers and see if I've changed that dying curve. It's not going have more HP in that missing 500-1,000 revs but it's not falling off a cliff now.
Happy days. |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Mon May 25, 2020 12:06 pm Post subject: Re: Inside Vintage Speed exhaust |
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| Zed999 wrote: |
| Alstrup wrote: |
Initially the fourtuned header will increase mid/upper rpm power, but your engine is limited by other things, so no, the difference would be minor.
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I fitted the VS exhaust today and went for a drive. Where it used to start feeling strangled at 45-50mph in 3rd, and made me feel baaad the odd time I tried to to 55mph, now it hits 60mph and still feels free. This is exactly what I wanted, it's behaving like a stock 2L but with "more" everywhere. It feels/sounds less clogged at all revs above 2,000 which I hardly dared hope for so I'll call that a bonus. One day when the virus allows I'll get a run on some rollers and see if I've changed that dying curve. It's not going have more HP in that missing 500-1,000 revs but it's not falling off a cliff now.
Happy days. |
This is kind of what I was getting at with regard to "better" exhausts. Not every "performance" exhaust MUST make more horsepower or torque....to be considered a performance enhancement.
If it runs cooler and/or produces better throttle response or an altered and improved torque range.....thats a performance enhancement. Ray |
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Zed999
Samba Member
Joined: March 04, 2018
Posts: 1248
Location: UK
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| Posted: Mon May 25, 2020 1:27 pm Post subject: Re: Inside Vintage Speed exhaust |
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| raygreenwood wrote: |
| Zed999 wrote: |
| Alstrup wrote: |
Initially the fourtuned header will increase mid/upper rpm power, but your engine is limited by other things, so no, the difference would be minor.
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I fitted the VS exhaust today and went for a drive. Where it used to start feeling strangled at 45-50mph in 3rd, and made me feel baaad the odd time I tried to to 55mph, now it hits 60mph and still feels free. This is exactly what I wanted, it's behaving like a stock 2L but with "more" everywhere. It feels/sounds less clogged at all revs above 2,000 which I hardly dared hope for so I'll call that a bonus. One day when the virus allows I'll get a run on some rollers and see if I've changed that dying curve. It's not going have more HP in that missing 500-1,000 revs but it's not falling off a cliff now.
Happy days. |
This is kind of what I was getting at with regard to "better" exhausts. Not every "performance" exhaust MUST make more horsepower or torque....to be considered a performance enhancement.
If it runs cooler and/or produces better throttle response or an altered and improved torque range.....thats a performance enhancement. Ray |
Nicely said. It already runs very cool. Too cool. For the first year or more oil pressure just sat there at 42psi any speed over about 1,500rpm. It was...freer again than it has been more recently. For the past year it's been 10psi higher. During that time I noticed the thermostat broken and I've been trying to find a 85-90 replacement. Awsome Powdercoat were selling them through a supplier here that's disappeared. So I've ordered direct at last. Again, pretty sure this will have the desired result of making it run hotter. I've changed from builders 20-50 to 15-40 but that had no effect on the pressure at all...and it used to be correct...got to be the thermostat? |
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cliveawn
Samba Member
Joined: December 07, 2010
Posts: 481
Location: Southern Sweden
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| Posted: Mon May 25, 2020 2:43 pm Post subject: Re: Inside Vintage Speed exhaust |
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I think the CSP python is better than the VS but have not compared them.
Johannes Persson JPM motorsports was involved in the development of the Python exhausts.
_________________
---------------------------------------------------------
Green 78 Westfalia Helsinki,
2056 with 41 x 34 valves,ported heads
Fully balanced
8,5:1CR
JPM Custom made cam
JPM 7075 dual taper pushrods
IDF 40's with 28mm venturi's
Python CSP 42mm exhaust.
115 HP
Daily driver 2017 Volvo V60 D5 hybrid
Rica stage 2 tune 345hp.
''Funny thing about common sense is that its not very common''
Seismic gun mechanic |
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Alstrup
Samba Member
Joined: July 12, 2007
Posts: 7219
Location: Videbaek Denmark
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| Posted: Mon May 25, 2020 2:50 pm Post subject: Re: Inside Vintage Speed exhaust |
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Yes, and no.
It totally depends on where you want your powerband. A proper 4-tuned header will always pull higher numbers, but also at higher rpms. Not nessessarily what you want in a bus. Also, the Python is significantly noisier. |
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cliveawn
Samba Member
Joined: December 07, 2010
Posts: 481
Location: Southern Sweden
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| Posted: Mon May 25, 2020 2:56 pm Post subject: Re: Inside Vintage Speed exhaust |
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Would love to try a VS one and also do a comparison on a dyno to see the differences.
The python is a bit noisy but not to the point of being annoying.
Funny enough the induction roar I have bothers me the most, i think 28mm vents are too small for my build so will try some 30mm vents once the bus is back from the ''Bastards Speedshop'' getting painted.
_________________
---------------------------------------------------------
Green 78 Westfalia Helsinki,
2056 with 41 x 34 valves,ported heads
Fully balanced
8,5:1CR
JPM Custom made cam
JPM 7075 dual taper pushrods
IDF 40's with 28mm venturi's
Python CSP 42mm exhaust.
115 HP
Daily driver 2017 Volvo V60 D5 hybrid
Rica stage 2 tune 345hp.
''Funny thing about common sense is that its not very common''
Seismic gun mechanic |
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Alstrup
Samba Member
Joined: July 12, 2007
Posts: 7219
Location: Videbaek Denmark
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| Posted: Mon May 25, 2020 3:16 pm Post subject: Re: Inside Vintage Speed exhaust |
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You donīt have to unless you want to see for yourself. I know what will generally happen  You will gain approx 10% torque below approx 3000 at the cost of both torque and hp above approx 4500.
Since you run a Raptor cam its very unpredictable how much your engine will gain down low and loose up top, since Raptor cams are generally "fond" of rpms.
The increase of venturies to 30 mm ought to release some power over almost the entire rpm band. However, the Spanish 40īs can be a biatch to get into proper tune if you are on the borderline with venturies. I especially remember one incident with a 2056 type 4 with a little more cam and ending at approx 135 hp and 200 Nm torque. I was through a bunch of E tubes and jets to make a nice and clean power- and AFR band. I was tempted to just drop one size in venturi, but the engine lost almost 10 hp by doing it, but the jetting became predictable. Thatīs why I picked up the glove and kept trying. |
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cliveawn
Samba Member
Joined: December 07, 2010
Posts: 481
Location: Southern Sweden
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| Posted: Mon May 25, 2020 3:27 pm Post subject: Re: Inside Vintage Speed exhaust |
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Its not a stock Raptor cam, Johannes cut it to suit the motor.
30mm vents are cheap so its worth a try.
Would like to meet up one day, im just across the bridge, 45 minutes from Malmo.
_________________
---------------------------------------------------------
Green 78 Westfalia Helsinki,
2056 with 41 x 34 valves,ported heads
Fully balanced
8,5:1CR
JPM Custom made cam
JPM 7075 dual taper pushrods
IDF 40's with 28mm venturi's
Python CSP 42mm exhaust.
115 HP
Daily driver 2017 Volvo V60 D5 hybrid
Rica stage 2 tune 345hp.
''Funny thing about common sense is that its not very common''
Seismic gun mechanic |
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Zed999
Samba Member
Joined: March 04, 2018
Posts: 1248
Location: UK
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| Posted: Thu May 28, 2020 11:59 am Post subject: Re: Inside Vintage Speed exhaust |
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I had my VS exhaust off again and looked down the holes. It's nothing like the one at the start of the thread. Disappointing, I quite liked the look of that.
On each side the pipes 1/2;and 3/4 join 3" or so inside then turn as one towards the centre. Can't actually see but the tailpipes physically can't extend into the exhaust past those pipes. If I had one of those little cameras on a stick... |
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W1K1
Samba Member
Joined: March 04, 2004
Posts: 4921
Location: Southern AB
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| Posted: Mon Jun 01, 2020 6:29 am Post subject: Re: Inside Vintage Speed exhaust |
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i found my mini borescope camera and put it in the O2 bung on my type 3 exhaust, it is similar to the picture one the first page, 1&2 and 3&4 come in on the ends, then the perforated disc, then central perforated tube runs down the middle and exits the end. you can see the welds where the perforated discs are.
so the O2 bung looks like the right spot for only measuring the AFR for 2 cylinders at a time.
_________________
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/manuals/jim_martin_engine_build.php
1973 super
1965 squareback 1500E
1971 bay window westy- subi swap |
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mark tucker
Samba Member
Joined: April 08, 2009
Posts: 23937
Location: SHALIMAR ,FLORIDA
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| Posted: Mon Jun 01, 2020 8:22 am Post subject: Re: Inside Vintage Speed exhaust |
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I dont see any tubes paired togeather.... what i see is a pos made to look good and make $.winenot just take a side winder and build a "muffler box "around it......  |
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Alstrup
Samba Member
Joined: July 12, 2007
Posts: 7219
Location: Videbaek Denmark
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| Posted: Mon Jun 01, 2020 9:30 am Post subject: Re: Inside Vintage Speed exhaust |
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| mark tucker wrote: |
| I dont see any tubes paired togeather.... what i see is a pos made to look good and make $.winenot just take a side winder and build a "muffler box "around it...... |
If you are after max hp and max torque without worrying where you get it I am fully with you. If you are after lower to mid rpm power and torque like you generally would in a bus its not a bad muffler. |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Mon Jun 01, 2020 12:42 pm Post subject: Re: Inside Vintage Speed exhaust |
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| W1K1 wrote: |
i found my mini borescope camera and put it in the O2 bung on my type 3 exhaust, it is similar to the picture one the first page, 1&2 and 3&4 come in on the ends, then the perforated disc, then central perforated tube runs down the middle and exits the end. you can see the welds where the perforated discs are.
so the O2 bung looks like the right spot for only measuring the AFR for 2 cylinders at a time.
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So this is what you are describing? yes/no?
Is so....this is actually VERY similar in concept to what the stock exhaust uses for type 4...except the stock exhaust is not equal length or volume...and uses two different sized end chambers.
That in itself ....while giving different back pressure to each pair of paired tubes......also gives sound frequency tuning at two different levels...one for each chamber volume....and then a third frequency where the pulses from all four inlets are gathered in the center or end chamber to exhaust.
In the vintage speed....if I am getting this right.....brings 1/2 and 3/4 pairs into equal size chambers at each end.... to try to keep the pressure similar on each pair (even though the pulses may not be times the same).....and vents part of the exhaust into the center chamber through the perforated bulkheads....which is one frequency of sound tuning in itself......and some of the pulse goes straight into the central tubes.
Each vent tube to the center chamber technically has different length and perforation set....so each one is a sound attenuation at a different frequency.
It also "looks" like they may have welded a baffle plate in the center of that one tube with two sets of perforations.
So the center two tubes are a classic "resonator" designed to damp specific frequencies of sound.
Its actually simply a more equal version of the stock type 4 exhaust muffler. If what I see is correct....its actually a pretty good design....for stock to....I would say...about 20% hotter than stock. Probably good to about 2.0L.
The problem with the stock type 4 muffler is that its volume and perforation system....is actually pretty good for teh 1.7L it was originally designed for...at stock output. If you take a 1.7L....up the compression, put in a freer breathing cam, hotter ignition...larger valves and TB even with stock injection....the 1.7L stock exhaust becomes a slight restriction.
Just putting on something like teh Ernst version of stock...higher interna volume...bigger perfs and outlet.....and you see a benefit....with a slightly warmer than stock 1.7L. However....in 1.8 form and larger.....the stock system is restrictive.
This system should work well with 1.8L to 2.0L. Ray |
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