Type 4 Distributor End play

[malcolm2]

Tom Wilson does not say anything about my LARGE gap.... spec 0.020 - 0.050".

This 914 1.8 I am using to make a 2.0 for my bus has initial Disty end play of 0.079. Tom says too much is ok. But how much is too much? This engine had never been altered, it was still factory sealed.

I have a shim from the 1.7 that came in my bus. If I use it the end play drops to 0.050". Tom does say that you MUST use 1 shim in a TIV engine. So I guess I should use 2....?

Thoughts?

With the spring and gravity and the Disty hold down all working on this gear and drive, what is the goal here? Gear and Drive wear reduction?
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My Toys: '75 Porsche 914, '92 Ski Nautique and now a 1972 VW Transporter Deluxe (punch list fixing)

[Wildthings]

I assume Disty is your distributor? Have you checked to see that the thrust washer between the cog and the case are intact? Originally there were two thin steel washers and a heavier fiber washer. The three all fail and disappear with time. There is a similar set of washer around the shaft within the body of the distributor, they too go bad.

[heimlich]

Can you take a picture? Most likely you just need to put some new fiber washers in there.
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[SGKent]

so there are two answers to your question since the description of the issue is conflictive.

1. As to the DISTRIBUTOR DRIVE GEAR. You only use one shim on a Type IV. Period. There is no spec for the clearance on a Type IV engine, while there is a spec for that on a Type I engine. Type IV shims are still available new, (or were) if yours is badly worn. Unlike Type I motors, you can't stack washers to get a specific freeplay on the DRIVE GEAR. If the drive gear has worn excessively, you can replace it with another. New ones are generally not available although one comes up in classifieds for sale occasionally. If the case has worn excessively you can replace it with another case. The purpose of the spring that sits on the drive gear on both a Type I and a Type IV engine, is to keep the gear seated. Make sure you use it.

2. The DISTRIBUTOR itself has shims and washers in it. As the distributor spins, they wear out, especially the fiber ones. The fiber washer, and shims can be replaced to maintain the proper shaft movement. The best solution for this is to send the distributor to someone who rebuilds them.
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[raygreenwood]

It only requires between .005" and .010". Ray

[Tbob]

I think there is a spec on the drive gear play, and the op lists it. When I rebuilt my 1973, I couldn't get below .054 even with a new factory shim. And I sure as heck wasn't going to replace my case just for that! The now shut down auto machine shop in the next town over finally came up with a shim for a tractor is something that solved the problem, but I really considered running 2 shims. I know the factory says one only, and all that, but really, from a functional standpoint, I could not see why 2 shims would not work. Thoughts?
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1969 Deluxe, owned since 1973
1973 Westfalia, owned since 1983
1980 Westfalia, watercooled conversion
1985 Westfalia, stock!
1986 Westfakia, Audi I-4 conversion
A couple of trucks and a couple of Jeeps

[tasb]

Found this post by accident as I don't search for "disty" or "dizzy". It's tolerable to use those terms inside a post but in the title, no. Nothing to ad until the OP returns with clarification.
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[SGKent]

[Glenn]

[SGKent]

[raygreenwood]

[SGKent]

Hey Ray - look at the photo. Do not stack Type IV Distributor shims. They have raised and indented areas. It will cause all sorts of secondary issues. They are not flat like Type 1 shims or flywheel shims. Photo from TheSamba gallery.

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“Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin

[Tbob]

I think we are talking about 2 different shim sites. One is inside the distributor, where, iirc, there are 3shims, 2 metal and one fiber. The other site is under the distributor drive gear, between the drive gear and the case. That was the one I was concerned with. Looking at the pic you posted, Steve, it is clear that you cannot just stack those shims with what appears to be oil grooves on it. I had forgotten that. Iirc, and I am afraid I am not, my machinist looked up the shim in a book, measuring inside and outside diameters, and spec'ed it from a European tractor or something, which listed different thicknesses. My concern was that I had enough play that I had less than what I thought too be enough engagement between the distributor coupling and the drive gear. We thought about bushing the case with a flanged bushing, or machining a little off the bottom of the distributor to allow the engagement to be more acceptable. But in the end, I think we solved it with a thicker shim. Thanks for your replies, and to the op, good luck. Since you are in Nashville, any old time machine shops in your area? The one I used is shut down, but now that I think of it, the old time machinist that helped me was also a KTM enthusiast, so my shim may have been sourced from that that arena. I really can't remember for sure.
_________________
1969 Deluxe, owned since 1973
1973 Westfalia, owned since 1983
1980 Westfalia, watercooled conversion
1985 Westfalia, stock!
1986 Westfakia, Audi I-4 conversion
A couple of trucks and a couple of Jeeps

[SGKent]

[malcolm2]

Yes, I am dealing with the shim under the DISTRIBUTOR drive shaft that is run by the gear on the crank.
Page 119 in Tom Wilson's book states, "Adjust the clearance by changing shims. You can install any number of shims of different thicknesses to get the desired clearance as long as you have at least 2 shims in Type 1 - 3 engines and one in Type 4s."

I pulled the DISTRIBUTOR and I think I can see a fiber washer between the end "cog" and the body. Also there is really no discernible endplay movement of the end cog or the shaft for the rotor button.

So I would think the original endplay discussion is coming from the length of the distributor or the length of the drive shaft.

I did add the 2nd shim and as mentioned, still have a gap. pic below is with 1 shim.

I guess my concern in using 2 shims would be, if I get a 2nd or new DISTRIBUTOR after engine assembly. I assume the alternate DISTRIBUTOR could be slightly longer and cause the shaft to bottom out. I could not then measure the endplay. But I could carefully remove a shim....
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My Toys: '75 Porsche 914, '92 Ski Nautique and now a 1972 VW Transporter Deluxe (punch list fixing)

[Tbob]

That last pic you posted, malcolm2, is what I was dealing with on my rebuild. I thought the spec was what you listed, between .020 and .050 endplay, drive gear, shim and distributor installed, with bracket, bracket being straight and flat. Even with a new shim, which I think I got from automobile Atlanta, the Porsche specialist, I still had .054 clearance, which did not seem to allow for enough distributor pawl to gear slot engagement. It is a special shim, as the pic from SGKent shows. I believe that my machinist, who was in a farming community the next town over, found me a thicker shim, and as I think about it, I think came from one of his motorcycle( he was a KTM enthusiast) sources. Unfortunately, I do not remember for sure, except I know I didn't put it back together with that much endplay, and a do not remember giving in and using 2 flat shims like a type 1. I hope that I am not sending you on a wild goose chase, and I apologise for my lack of memory. But I am Almost sure I remember him looking at a supplier catalogue, and getting me a shim that took my clearance to below .050.
_________________
1969 Deluxe, owned since 1973
1973 Westfalia, owned since 1983
1980 Westfalia, watercooled conversion
1985 Westfalia, stock!
1986 Westfakia, Audi I-4 conversion
A couple of trucks and a couple of Jeeps

[SGKent]

[malcolm2]

So am I reading from several of you that I should just use 1 shim and consider the endplay un-adjustable?

as you stated, it looks like this DISTRIBUTOR and drive shaft running this engine case had always been running with this large endplay measurement. I really don't see any wear on the case here (where the shim runs).

"above" means as the DISTRIBUTOR sits in the engine. Sorry this pic somehow rotated during the upload.

From other builds, I have at least 2, maybe 3 drive shafts, and 2 shims, so I think I am going to put the best combo of 1 shim and drive shaft together that gives me the smallest endplay gap.
_________________
My Toys: '75 Porsche 914, '92 Ski Nautique and now a 1972 VW Transporter Deluxe (punch list fixing)

[Wildthings]

On my 1.9L WBXer, it had been run for thousands of miles (prior to my purchase) with the cog not aligned with the slot. Long enough to have worn a minor second slot in the drive about 90° from the original. The fiber washer above the gear was of course gone from the very high thrust loading it was subject to. I put new washers above the cog and tried to run it with the cog engaged in the slot but the timing bounced all over the place from the excessive vertical movement in the drive. Added a second washer beneath the drive (I am pretty sure the WBXer setup uses the same washer as a Type 4) and ran it for years without any problem, about 75K miles until the engine died from unrelated reasons. Would have no qualms about running a second washer again. There might well be better ways to do this, like finding a second washer that was flat to use as a shim, but an original washer worked.

[Wildthings]

On my 1.9L WBXer, it had been run for thousands of miles (prior to my purchase) with the cog not aligned with the slot. Long enough to have worn a minor second slot in the drive about 90° from the original. The fiber washer above the gear was of course gone from the very high thrust loading it was subject to. I put new washers above the cog and tried to run it with the cog engaged in the slot but the timing bounced all over the place from the excessive vertical movement in the drive. Added a second washer beneath the drive (I am pretty sure the WBXer setup uses the same washer as a Type 4) and ran it for years without any problem, about 75K miles until the engine died from unrelated reasons. Would have no qualms about running a second washer again. There might well be better ways to do this, like finding a second washer that was flat to use as a shim, but an original washer worked.