88x69 1700 Nostalgia Mouse Motor

[Matthew]

Back in the days when the only two big bore sizes available for type 1 13-1600 engines was 88 or 92 mm there were a bunch of 88mm bore engines built. Looking through old magazines one can see that it was fairly common to run low 14 sec or better with these 1700 engines in street cars with close ratio 3-4 gears.

If we were building a 88x69 type 1 in 2020 with all the technology that we have available today, what would it look like? There are only two limitations in this discussion - must be 88x69 and streetable enough to cruise on the weekend to local establishments or meets. There’s nothing like the sound of an IDA fed screaming mouse motor.
_________________
1965 Beetle sedan
Click to view image

[mark tucker]

1 dint limit your self.
2 dont limit your self.
3 a big motor will scream just as loud as a mouse and will squash the mouse.
4 dont limit your self. get out of that old box.

[sled]

look up anything Johannes Persson has built.

quite a few years back he built a 1603cc mouse that made a little over 190hp, while his latest 1584cc made 211hp.



Link



Link



Link

_________________
drive your split.

[vwracerdave]

It would look exactly the same as it did 40 years ago. The technology has not changed in the last 40 years. 48 IDA are exactly the same they were 40 years ago. There is no "new" technology that will make it any faster or any better. Sure you can put EFI and full crank fire programable ignition and CNC machined heads but it won't run any faster than all the old shit did 40 years ago.

Same with the transaxle gear ratio's. Nothing has changed.
_________________
2017 Street Comp Champion - Thunder Valley Raceway Park - Noble, OK
2010 Sportsman ET Champion - Mid-America Dragway - Arkansas City, KS
1997 Sportsman ET Champion - Thunder Valley Raceway Park - Noble ,OK

[spencerfvee]

oh well lets go back in time .back in the 60s and 70s I ran a lot of 1600cc motors .but I was all ways .wanting to up grade I wanted what was new and bigger is better back then.. I love under dog motors .its fun to beat bigger vw motors . a all out 69x88 motor .now a days .would be a motor with a cam that would run to 8,000 rpm shifts . alum. case. scat flanged crank. potter alum .rods .best heads money can buy. ( I will not say who makes the best heads because there are so many heads out there to pick from) best lifters best oil pump best valve springs best push rods best rocker arms money can buy. best header 11.1 cr. cam two gas to feed the 48ida carbs or E 85 gas and lots of money for a trans .the best ing.sys. money can buy $15,000.00 MIGHT BUILD IT . I am sure it could be done cheaper .but what the hell buy the best .and if it don't run the right numbers .put a turbo on it .lol . but carbs are more fun . are you rely going to build a 69x88 motor. ??? spencerfvee

[Brian_e]

Lots has changed in the engine world in the last 40 years, but people in this hobby tend to refuse to embrace the technology. Stuck in their old ways i guess?

JPM in Sweden is the opposite. Yes the 48 IDA is still the same carb, but JPM has made new vents, stacks, and a power jet setup to improve them. These things weren't available even 10 years ago. JPM has been making constant huge improvements. A 10,000rpm vw engine was almost unheard of 30 years ago. Not any more.

Valve spring technology now allows peak rev limits to be WAY higher than they were 10 years ago. Lighter valve train, lighter pistons, better lighter connecting rods, etc. These all allow higher revving, and the higher the RPM, the higher the HP. Beehive and conical springs now let engines do things they never used to be able to do 30 years ago. Same thing with Titanium valves.

Cylinder heads have also come a long ways. Modern chamber designs, smaller, faster ports, and most of all computational fluid dynamics to help design more efficient intake and exhaust ports.

Bearing coatings, better oil, EFI, etc....

Take advantage of the technology, apply it correctly, and there is no reason you can't build a little ripper engine that should make as much or more power then a similar size engine from 40 years ago.

Then to appease the old guys......

Or just slap together a cookie cutter 2776cc with off the shelf parts, and a proven combo. It will make similar power, and might last longer.

Brian
_________________
www.type-emotorsports.com

[Matthew]

Spence and Brian, I like the way you think.
I like what JPM is doing. It would be cool to see that technology applied to a 1700 that is just tame enough to be street driven.
_________________
1965 Beetle sedan
Click to view image

[slalombuggy]

I'm collecting parts for a killer stock 1585 . I want to see what I can do using nothing but stock parts and optimizing everything that I can.

[spencerfvee]

[bugguy1967]

[bugguy1967]

[vwracerdave]

I'll agree with most of that for a big 2300cc stroker full race engine, but the OP said 88X69 and street drivable,

The limit on the 88mm pistons will always be the valve size and your not gonna get any more out of it with carbs.

Sure you can build a 9500 RPM screamer for the track but it won't be street drivable like the OP wanted.
_________________
2017 Street Comp Champion - Thunder Valley Raceway Park - Noble, OK
2010 Sportsman ET Champion - Mid-America Dragway - Arkansas City, KS
1997 Sportsman ET Champion - Thunder Valley Raceway Park - Noble ,OK

[mark tucker]

with small valves you either add valves or force feed it...

[Alstrup]

Let me ask in a different way. - Was was the power of an average 1680 back in those days? When I began in the engine industry the consensus was more or less a W110 cam or a Scat C45 for the "cool" guys. The engines I remember, (from the late 80´s and early 90´s) were usually in the 100 to 115 hp range at the flywheel, and they did´nt last that long. The first couple of engines I built did´nt either.
That is easily done today, - with better longlivety and better driveability, and it should be because of experience and evolution. But if you use the same type of parts and make the same mistakes as you did in 1985 the engine will not produce one bit more power today.
In all out racing the boundraries have not changed that much. In the mid 90´s the best class D dragsters (1680 cc) pulled roughly 220 hp but was grenade motors. They had to turn almost 11000 to do it. Today "we" (not me) can pull a little more, roughly 235 at 1000 rpm less, and they are not nessessarily grenade motors anymore.

[Matthew]

All good information so far.
So now with that, how about if we get into more specifics?
Here’s what I’m kicking around so far:
12lb German flywheel
Forged 69 mm c/w crankshaft
Forged 88s
I beam rods w/ 5/16 arp bolts
All balanced internals
CB2288 cam
light weight CB lifters
Alloy pushrods
massaged CB Panchito heads
10:1 CR
Beehive springs
1 1/2 to 1 5/8 step header
48IDAs with custom grooved venturis 33/37
_________________
1965 Beetle sedan
Click to view image

[spencerfvee]

[Brian_e]

I like the nostalgia idea, and it will be fun to drive, but it will be lacking power down low, and probably get old driving it pretty quick. It won't come on till about 3000rpm, but then it will be a bunch of fun. I am pretty sure the old drag cars you are reading about spent most all their time on the track. Are you planning more street time, or more track time?

I hate to say it, because I like the vintage, underdog, mouse, sweep the floor stuff............but the combo you listed would be WAY further ahead with 94mm cylinders, and nobody would know the difference from the outside. I like the old stuff, but I also like making it the best it can be for the least amount of $$, and some decent 94's wouldn't really add much to the cost of the total engine, but the outcome would be far more pleasant.

I think if you want to try the mini mouse time bomb thing, do it by spending as little $$ as possible. Stock crank, home ported heads, etc....

Brian
_________________
www.type-emotorsports.com

[Alstrup]

[Dan Ruddock]

Hell might as well go all the way and build a 1200cc 40hp with dp beads and 36 dells.

[spencerfvee]