Scott3t 412 Restoration. Part 1 - Brakes

[scott3t]

This has been a long time coming. This initial introduction may be a bit long, but we'll get there, I promise. I'm starting the restoration of my 1974 412, 4 speed manual. It's been in the family since '76. I was driving it since about '87. Given to me from Mom in about '88. Garaged since '96. Last ran in 2001.

So why am I finally doing this? It's been a dream for many years. I remember talking my mom into buying it at the used car lot when I was a little kid. Numerous delays along the way, including the military and family, have pushed the timeline to now. And I've been reading this forum for four hours each of the past five nights. It is unbelievable the amount of expertise and resources here. Thank you all for that. It gives me the confidence that I can get the help necessary and confirms my feelings that I have a special car.

Since it has sat for so long, the car will need work in every area and on every system. I think the bones are overall good. It was maintained decently when it ran and [I think] is low rust. But there are a couple of rough spots/dents on the body from a minor tree scrape once and a minor telephone poll scrape another. We don't need to go there just yet...

Since the brakes were keeping me from driving it before I parked it (air leaks), I think I need to start there. And it if has to move along the way of restoration, perhaps it can be done a little more easily.

Challenge: I am splitting time between my primary house and our get away cottage two hours away. The car is in the garage at the cottage. But the telework option is in full force for my wife so we'll be spending a ton of time there this summer.

I've read some of the posts, but I'm sure not all the right ones. A couple that seem especially relevant are the "brake hydraulic parts reconditioning techniques" and the "... front caliper rebuild part 1 and part 2". And a recent note from Ray has pointed me in the right direction on some things.

So questions and comments:
1. I'll send initial photos this Sunday.

2. Where to start exactly? Front calipers was where I was going. But I don't know exactly what I'm going to find this weekend. For rear drum brakes, how easy is it to get new wheel cylinders and are there preferred options/vendors/sources? For the other rear brake parts, do I wait to see what I find or what do I already "know" to go buy?

3. Please send guidance on tools/parts/cleaners/solvents/oils you know I'll need. The car is 35 minutes from the parts store. And the parts store options are limited. So I'll be doing some of the parts/supplies buying in batches.

4. For eventual pressurizing and testing with air, how exactly is that done, and I think I need to get threaded couplers and caps for that.

5. Does it matter if I address front and or rear brakes before I look at the master cylinder?

6. Brake lines - i'll be having to replace some of these I think. Will assess with pictures this weekend.

7. What is the best way to support/block entire car while working on this? Right now I have the rear car on jack stands and the front tires on. Should I just put the whole thing on four jack stands and are there best practices with supporting without damaging?

8. Besides forums and numerous articles and weblinks on the D Jetronic Fuel injection, I have the Clymer manual, the John Muir book (How to keep your Volkswagen alive), and the Fuel injection technical manual (Henry Elfrink). Don't have the Haynes or Chiltons. The Haynes website actually shows the Chiltons when you select the 412 (air cooled '70-'81 repair manual, $25.50). Not sure why it doesn't have the ones I see on eBay (68-73 Haynes ~$20-25) or the old, vintage looking manual by J.H. Haynes (~$20-25). Do these refs exist easily online or I guess I'll want a copy of these as well...

Some of you have done numerous restorations, whereas this is my first. I'm a good learner. But please assume you can give me all the detail you want, as I won't take offense and need guidance. I'm smart enough to know there is a ton of stuff I don't know but I'm hoping the years of driving this car with some experience working on it and other cars in the past will get me through this. But it's a whole other world working on a car that has sat for decades and that doesn't have parts at the local auto supply store.

-Scott

[ClassicCamper]

Scott,

Welcome! I’m glad there’s someone else working on a resto of one of these cars. Cool background history about it as well. I have a lot of fuel injection parts for a 1974, so can help you out in that department.

For your brakes, I’d suggest getting your front calipers up to par. Sitting for 19 years and reading that it was parked due to a brake problem probably warrants starting there. I had a guy on the Type 3 forums (Jim Adney) recondition my calipers for a resonable price, and they never worked better. (Just a suggestion). Next, in the front, I would put the front rotors on a mic and make sure they still have meat on them and get a fresh turn on them if necessary. Once done, repack the bearings and remount the rotors. I believe Jim sends the calipers back with brand new brake pads on them. I have his contact info if you want to at least chat with him, he’s actually doing a fuel pump restore for me right now.

If you choose that route, you can sort through inspecting the brake lines for leaks, and replace as necessary. I blew out all my steel lines with air and it was pretty easy to find any bad areas.

Next, I’d absolutely replace all of the flexible rubber lines in the front and the rear and buy new rear wheel cylinders, most likely, the bleeder valves will be rusted closed, anyway. Also, check the drums out and see if they need to be turned and buy fresh shoes/hardware.

I’m taking a rough guess here, but all of that work, the parts, and machining will cost around $400-500. But, your brakes are important and need to be done right.

At least, that is how I did my car and it seemed to work fine. The brakes were toast and everything needed to be replaced (even the lines that go from the master cylinder to the brake reservoir).

After I did all that, and replaced a small section of steel line under the steering wheel and bled the system, the brakes pumped right up. My master cylinder seemed to be ok, it held pressure and I had no brake fade.

Im sure there are many ‘good’ ways to approach this, but that is how I did mine and my brakes still work great. Don’t need much pedal effort to stop the car at all.

Again, welcome and hope this gave you a general start. I didn’t answer all your questions point by point, but hope this will give you a general way to tackle this. Looking forward to seeing pictures of your ride!

Ron
_________________
1973 412 Wagon
1976 Westy
1978 SB Vert

[scott3t]

Ron,
Great info thanks. Yes, I would like to talk with Jim. I'll PM you to get his contact info. I agree about starting with the calipers so that is the route I'm planning. I'll also start working the rear brakes as feasible while working the caliper issue.

I got a better look today at everything. It looks like there is more rust than I thought and the body is a little rougher than I thought. But it is what it is. Hopefully not too big of an issue.

I'm trying to determine best/correct way to support car with all four wheels removed. And looking for comments from pictures below.

Pictures are below...

This is the car. Ground zero.

Master brake cylinder

Master brake cylinder

Left rear brakes

Left rear

Left rear

Left rear

Right rear

Right rear

View from the right rear brakes

View from the right rear brakes

Right rear brakes

Right rear brakes

Brake lines - view from right rear

Brake line junction - view from right rear

Front left wheel

Front left - inside view

Front left - inside view

Front right wheel

Front right

Front right

Front jack stands.

What is best way to support entire from portion of car with all four wheels removed? I have the jack where the track control arm attaches to the front axle carrier. But what part is the most strong and stable for the jack stands? Or do I make a support bridge with 2x4s somewhere else?

Rear portion of front axle carrier

Under driver's seat. Rust.

Under left rear passenger seat. Rust.

Under car from rear view.

Plenty more pictures available but will save for another day.

[raygreenwood]

I dont have much time today but a few things:

1. All of the rear brake parts are type 3. So shoes, hardware, adjusters, hold downs....you can get.

2. Carefully check your rear wheel cylinders. If they have rust pits inside....just not worth the hassle. If they are clean.....you can rebuild them. You can get wheel cylinder kits....right now....in closeout from Rockauto for between $1.60 for Wagner, ahout $2.50 for EIS and about the same for NAPA. But...just a warning. I have not had a prohlem with extremely old wheel cylinder kits....rubber wise....but I just do not know. Wheel cylinder kits crom NAPA/United and EIS....mean those are very old kits.....like 20 years old.

There are more than a few vendors out there. You can get Centric or Raybestos cylinders new.... from Rockauto....in the $11 range.

3. Do not discard the rear drums. Lets look at them. Because....all that is available are Brazilian junk.

4. Do not turn your front rotors. Its just not worth it. You have enough rust that the amount you will have to take off will be enough to lose considerable mass. They will overheat and warp....if they are not already warped.

New....excellent quality rotors....are relatively cheap. You can get German made Sebro for about $67-69 each at PMB performance and Autohuaz AZ. You can get Raybestos or Centric from Rockauto....both quite good.....for about $15 less each

Ray

[Deanaha]

You all are an inspiration to me! I had just decided to get the brakes on my 71 411 fixed. They work but the pedals go tot he floor at times- fluid level is up. So that is my starting point- to examine and ask questions. I am looking forward to reading the progress and see the pics
Thanks for sharing this adventure.

[scott3t]

Thanks for guidance Ray. I got the calipers off. So I won't turn the rotors. I'll measure them. I'm wondering if there is a possibility to clean them up or should I just go ahead and replace them. I should probably just replace them?

The Haynes manual shows a tool for removing the brake pads. Or making a little tool to do it. Is that "official" tool very helpful or what is the best way to do that moving forward? Or do you just make a hook with a piece of metal and pull from the hole where the pin was?

The brake lines actually look pretty decent and there wasn't evidence of leakage in the lines at the wheels. Looking at that now.

Deanaha, great you are inspired! The folks on here are great! Good luck and let us know what you do.

Here are calipers:

Left side

Left side

Right side

Next is looking at rear brake cylinders.

[scott3t]

And one picture showing the brake rotor....

[ClassicCamper]

It's awesome to see that you are making progress! You will be riding in her in no time! Keep plugging along.

Looking good.
_________________
1973 412 Wagon
1976 Westy
1978 SB Vert

[raygreenwood]

[Danno5]

Hey, welcome Scott. I won't have much to chime in here, my 412's brakes are in good shape so I just wanted to say hi. Awesome that you have a 4-speed! A rare bird.

[scott3t]

Hello all, I'm still plugging and chugging even though no updates posted this week. I appreciate the comments Danno5, Ray, ClassicCamper, etc. I'll update status of everything soon but a couple questions to keep things moving forward...

I wasn’t able to get the master cylinder out before having to leave the car a few days for work and family. Ray, you were looking to do some plating of some master cylinder bores and clutch slave and master cylinders last summer. Did you get all that done or are you looking for any to add to a group to do that [again]? By the way, I got a NOS clutch slave cylinder in February 2007 off of eBay but am only now finally doing all the work.

Is the best way to rebuild the type 4 master cylinder still to get a type 3 rebuild kit, take the seals, and reuse the type 4 hardware (assuming those parts are ok)?

Any need to replace the blue line from the master cylinder reservoir to the MC (unless it’s really loose when reconnecting to the MC)?

The metal brake lines look good right now – at least until I clean/pressurize and check. I’m getting the new rubber brake lines for the four short sections near each wheel. I assume they are all the same. Looks like these work – not sure if certain ones are preferred.

https://www.rockauto.com/en/catalog/volkswagen,197...+hose,1792

Prices between $5.10 to $11.06 each.

I am tracking at least some relevant posts on the master cylinder work…

Hydraulic parts reconditioning
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...highlight=

Alternative Master Cylinders
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...highlight=

The risks of NOS master cylinders
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=679160

1973 master cylinder
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=629103

[Danno5]

Scott,

I looked through some of your earlier posts in more detail and found something that Ray hasn't answered yet. Ray is the is the source of the answer though!

Your question:
What is best way to support entire from portion of car with all four wheels removed? I have the jack where the track control arm attaches to the front axle carrier. But what part is the most strong and stable for the jack stands? Or do I make a support bridge with 2x4s somewhere else?

My answer - Look about halfway through Ray's build on his 4-speed and you can see some pictures of the setup. He recommends going the support bridge route.

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...p;start=20

[Danno5]

Oh, and your first post had something on manuals. You have a lot of good ones. I would add these if you haven't already seen them:

The VW parts book for the type 4 -
https://www.volkswagen-classic-parts.de/catalogues/Typ4/html5.html#/1

Has a lot of good part explosion diagrams. Ray found this one first.

The Factory repair manual -
http://www.michaelknappmann.de/bulli/michaelk/vw_bus_d/reparat0.htm#67-74

The repair manual is all in german, but google translate does really good. It also isn't organized by car. You go by system and then you select the relevant car. The classic parts people at VW told me about this one.

The eberspacher BA-4 manual - https://www.type4.org/manuals/ba4/index.html.

This is for the gas heater behind your back seat. I think the manual is also on the samba, but this guy has it in a nice electronic layout. I used this in conjuction with a post from Ray where he gave a list of refresh steps for the heater to get it going again.

Dan

[scott3t]

Dan,
Good stuff -thanks! Yes, I remember seeing that part of Ray’s post with the wood support. Guess I’ll make that going forward because I assume it supports the body just rear of the axle carrier so I can also remove suspension parts. If I’m wrong here please somebody let me know.

Great on the ref manuals. I like those parts book diagrams. I really have nothing on part numbers. I also decided to go ahead and get the Haynes and Chiltons. They are on the way. I’ve had the John Muir book forever. Used it a ton on my old ‘63 VW bug (RIP, it got massively vandalized sitting on the edge of an old field of some farm property).

-Scott

[raygreenwood]

[scott3t]

Ray,
Thanks for detailed explanation. So I plan to get some more done on the front and rear brakes and then throw the rear wheels on and use this method to support the car for looking at the front suspension.

You said, "Put the block of wood under the rear most bolt on the subframe". I"m not sure what point you are talking about exactly. Can you clarify or post a pic of where the wood is supporting the subframe?

Do you like any of these brake bleeder kits at rockauto?

https://www.rockauto.com/en/tools/brake+&+wheel+hub,tool,brake+bleeder+tool,1000608

The length of tube looks very short. The local car parts place had a terrible selection (if any at all) of clear tubing. But I'm all about what makes the easiest job of bleeding the brakes.

-Scott

[raygreenwood]

[scott3t]

Ah ok that’s what I was wondering. So actually putting the jack under the axle carrier.

I’m back at it this weekend. I‘ll take out the master cylinder and go from there. I’m waiting for some parts as well.

So as I work on the brake lines and rear brakes, I went ahead and sent my calipers for rebuild to Jim Adney from the type 3 posts. He is a big proponent of using Dot-5 Silicone break fluid. Has used it on dozens of cars over several decades and says it’s really good for cars that don’t drive daily because there is less corrosion and less need to rebuild parts.

Was wondering if any of you use the Dot-5?

[scott3t]

Help! I hope somebody can tell me the answer to the mystery.

I have four different manuals that cover brake master cylinder removal. Three don't even mention disconnecting the clevis - I guess it's so inherently easy and obvious. But until somebody shows me what I'm missing, its the most difficult step. I have everything off or loose except this dang clevis pin. So I'm stuck.

Pulling the pin on the clevis, which it looks like I need to do, is extremely difficult because there is a big spring there that pulls the brake petal up after you push it. And it's really hard to get to. What is the secret?

Some pics below.

This shorter wrench made it easier to get to the brake line nut. Otherwise I had very little room to move the nut.

The spring locks in the clevis pin and is really strong.

The other end of the spring is hooked onto the plate very securely.

Just to show its not immaculate and easy. This is the real world. It made a big difference putting the boards down over the area under the seats so I didn't worry about stepping through the floorboard. And the padding made it possible to do this without hurting a neck or hip or knee.
[/u]

[scott3t]

Ok rookie mistake. I got the master cylinder out. The books don't mention it because you don't have to mess with that clevis. The push rod isn't really connected to the MC but just pushes up against it I guess.

Moving on....