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1.8 T4 replacement cam
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MikeyM73
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2020 5:30 pm    Post subject: 1.8 T4 replacement cam Reply with quote

Hey all, happy Friday.

In my quest for building a simple, temp, reliable 1.8 (bastardized from my 1.7 and parts-bus 2L) the last piece of the puzzle is the cam. I know this subject has been beaten to death but are there any cams that are a hair larger than stock that will keep it a little cooler, work with stock springs, and OEM 2L valve sizes?

The most mild cams I'm seeing are around 270ish + duration with .443+ lift which seem to be a little too much. The C25, Engle 110, all seem to be suited for heads with larger valves, and Web is awesome but waaay too much for a stock-ish temp engine. If I have to change springs, I will. I'm just looking for a no frills replacement cam that will work well with the 2L heads/ OEM valve sizes that will work with stock springs (if possible). The permanent engine will be the expensive one. Smile

Thanks all,
Mikey
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2020 5:58 pm    Post subject: Re: 1.8 T4 replacement cam Reply with quote

Web 00-142
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2020 6:08 pm    Post subject: Re: 1.8 T4 replacement cam Reply with quote

You don't mention if you have the earlier dual-carb exhaust boxes or the
later F.I. set up, those later exhausts are not as free-flowing & you should
use the 1974 - like dual carb heater boxes & muffler type if you like to drive
a free-revving bus.
The '74 1800 dual carb bus is my favorite VW Type IV engine,
minus the EGR & delete the vacuum retard function at idle, of course.
1800cc solid lifters. Stock cam wasn't that bad.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2020 6:51 pm    Post subject: Re: 1.8 T4 replacement cam Reply with quote

web 142 is a slightly more aggressive cam than a stock bus, and was designed to produce about 100 HP in the European 914-4. A stock bus cam tops out about 500 - 600 RPM less than the 142. I can easily push my bus to 5000 RPM but don't like doing it.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2020 7:24 pm    Post subject: Re: 1.8 T4 replacement cam Reply with quote

I will repost it for Ray Greenwood

"The web 73 is a version of the original 411 cam from 68 to about 70. It has a little more lift and duration than the stock cam. The other important item with this cam is that its, lobe center and intake valve timing were very close to that of the original 411 cam for D-Jet ao it works well with that injection. This makes little to no difference to a carb system. Ray"
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2020 8:06 pm    Post subject: Re: 1.8 T4 replacement cam Reply with quote

halfassleatherworks wrote:
I will repost it for Ray Greenwood

"The web 73 is a version of the original 411 cam from 68 to about 70. It has a little more lift and duration than the stock cam. The other important item with this cam is that its, lobe center and intake valve timing were very close to that of the original 411 cam for D-Jet so it works well with that injection. This makes little to no difference to a carb system. Ray"


I sat in Steve's office at Webcam when we measured some of these cams on a very precise cam grinders instrument, and compared them to NOS VW cams. For a bus the 142 is your answer. It is a bus and not a light 411. Take or leave the advice.

web 73 262/262
web 142 247/242 - same as European "Z" grind 2L 95 HP GA cam

A stock type 1 grind is said to be 224/228

I have never degreed a stock bus cam but from research it appears to be 223/223 at .004" so maybe about 228/228 at zero as a best guess. I am really done with this subject. I am using a webcam 142 and the extended duration already drops the vacuum signature at idle some. The bus runs so well I could not ask for more. FWIW I built some quite exotic racing engines in my late 20's. Some went to Indy, Al Unser Jr., Road Atlanta, NHRA finals. You are driving a poor person's station wagon designed in the 1930's - a utility truck and transporter called the people's car. Get over it being anything else.

Ray Greenwood wrote:
Camshaft wise....there was only one cam that ever came in any 411/412 of all engine #'s. That was the cam that was optimized for fuel injection but will run fine with carbs as well. There was an early grind(V code) and a late grind (Z code).....but the intake valve timing was optimized for D-jet injection. The 1.8L L-jet came with the same cam....all three engines of the 914 came with this cam ....except for the Euro only high compression cam I mentioned earlier that either came with the Euro 1.8 or 2.0 in the 914

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2020 11:35 am    Post subject: Re: 1.8 T4 replacement cam Reply with quote

SGKent wrote:
halfassleatherworks wrote:
I will repost it for Ray Greenwood

"The web 73 is a version of the original 411 cam from 68 to about 70. It has a little more lift and duration than the stock cam. The other important item with this cam is that its, lobe center and intake valve timing were very close to that of the original 411 cam for D-Jet so it works well with that injection. This makes little to no difference to a carb system. Ray"


I sat in Steve's office at Webcam when we measured some of these cams on a very precise cam grinders instrument, and compared them to NOS VW cams. For a bus the 142 is your answer. It is a bus and not a light 411. Take or leave the advice.

web 73 262/262
web 142 247/242 - same as European "Z" grind 2L 95 HP GA cam

A stock type 1 grind is said to be 224/228

I have never degreed a stock bus cam but from research it appears to be 223/223 at .004" so maybe about 228/228 at zero as a best guess. I am really done with this subject. I am using a webcam 142 and the extended duration already drops the vacuum signature at idle some. The bus runs so well I could not ask for more. FWIW I built some quite exotic racing engines in my late 20's. Some went to Indy, Al Unser Jr., Road Atlanta, NHRA finals. You are driving a poor person's station wagon designed in the 1930's - a utility truck and transporter called the people's car. Get over it being anything else.

Ray Greenwood wrote:
Camshaft wise....there was only one cam that ever came in any 411/412 of all engine #'s. That was the cam that was optimized for fuel injection but will run fine with carbs as well. There was an early grind(V code) and a late grind (Z code).....but the intake valve timing was optimized for D-jet injection. The 1.8L L-jet came with the same cam....all three engines of the 914 came with this cam ....except for the Euro only high compression cam I mentioned earlier that either came with the Euro 1.8 or 2.0 in the 914



Laughing ...so here i my argument for your slightly bent logic here:

Do I say the 142 is not a great cam for the bus? Not at all! Too many people using it with good success...but here in response to the quote below from me.... you stated:

My quote:
Quote:

"The web 73 is a version of the original 411 cam from 68 to about 70. It has a little more lift and duration than the stock cam. The other important item with this cam is that its, lobe center and intake valve timing were very close to that of the original 411 cam for D-Jet so it works well with that injection. This makes little to no difference to a carb system. Ray"


And your response:

Quote:
I sat in Steve's office at Webcam when we measured some of these cams on a very precise cam grinders instrument, and compared them to NOS VW cams. For a bus the 142 is your answer. It is a bus and not a light 411. Take or leave the advice.



And there....you state that the 142 cam...is IDENTICAL to the cam that the 2.0L , 100 hp Porsche 914 used.....which is a car.... THAT IS LIGHTER THAN THE 411!

And...then use the logic that since the #73 its a cam made for a lighter car and not a bus....its not fit for a bus (even though many have used it in a bus with no issues).....so which is it?

You cannot say the 142 (made for a 2000 lb-ish Porche 914) is THE cam for a big fat bus...and then say the web 73 (or 9550 or 9590)...are NOT to be used for a bus because they were made for a 2200 lb-ish car!

Yes....the 142 may be great for a bus...but not based off that logic.

An added fact.....is that ANY cam used in a 100+ hp 914 2.0L from the factory...had lobe center and intake valve timing events set up to work with D-jet..injection...because they all came with it in 1.7L and 2.0L form. And factually...I would bet the 142 or something similar was also used in the Euro only 412 with twin carbs and 85hp.

And...that same valve timing was set up to match the V and Z cams that came in 1.7L with D-jet (and also used in the 1.8's with L-jet in 914 /411 and 412).....all of which are factually what the Web 73 is based on....and the 9550...and 9590 cams.

So yes...I would suffice to say you are correct that the the 142 has a lift and duration profile that work well...maybe the best... with a bus 2.0 (and probably a 1.8 as well)....but your method/logic.....of explaining that...is flawed. Wink
Ray
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2020 12:00 pm    Post subject: Re: 1.8 T4 replacement cam Reply with quote

Ray - you have it all wrong. I am not the person who originally invoked your name and quote in defense that a web 73 was the best cam for a bus. I was offering up what you said regarding the differences in the 411 cams.

Also the lower vacuum at idle of the 142 already requires some tweaking for L-jet. The 73 would have an even lower vacuum. Maybe someone who can run dual carbs might be really happy with the 73 but frankly from the carb questions we get around here, someone who can tune them isn't on this forum asking questions about what cam they can bolt onto their engine to make it perform like a modern water cooled SUV. People have these images in their heads of massive changes in performance with simple bolt on differences.

We watched this program last night where they were dyno testing a whole bunch of combinations of induction systems to get different HP outputs from the same engine. In each case however the peak torque from the engine was within 1 lb (at a different RPM peak) which is probably a rounding error, or different temps of the dyno fluid etc.. Generally on a single profile cam (non-variable) of a given displacement to get more HP one has to go up in RPM. To get more torque (& HP) larger displacement is needed. I don't see a bus owner making a more reliable engine because he can push it to 6000 RPM all the time. I did that with my 1600, and it hauled ass, but frankly the parts just wore out faster. Eventually I went totally back to stock and it was a dog, but then it lasted forever. Buses have that huge wind load they push at freeway speeds, and weight climbing grades. I don't have time to discuss the same things over and over on this forum. It's like a broken record around here that goes on forever.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2020 12:23 pm    Post subject: Re: 1.8 T4 replacement cam Reply with quote

I was the one that posted the quote,

I have been looking for something for my 75 bus 1.8 all stock but was looking for something that will work with carbs and not FI
when I came across Rays quote,

The OP said nothing about what it was going into my bad for assuming it was for a car. but and I quote "" I'm just looking for a no frills replacement cam that will work well with the 2L heads/ OEM valve sizes that will work with stock springs (if possible). ""

I did not wish to start a controversy and I will remove my post If requested.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2020 1:41 pm    Post subject: Re: 1.8 T4 replacement cam Reply with quote

SGKent wrote:
Also the lower vacuum at idle of the 142 already requires some tweaking for L-jet. The 73 would have an even lower vacuum. Maybe someone who can run dual carbs might be really happy with the 73


This hasn't been my expereince. I have built engines with both the Web Cam 73 and 00-142 running stock fuel injection and there is no issue with either of them, from manifold vacuum or anything else.The engines with these cams run well on the stock FI. Obviously the cam is critical, but there is more to the engine than the cam. The 142 works fine with stockish cylinder heads and exhaust and the 73 works better with upgraded heads and/or exhaust.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 07, 2020 1:00 pm    Post subject: Re: 1.8 T4 replacement cam Reply with quote

halfassleatherworks wrote:
I was the one that posted the quote,

I have been looking for something for my 75 bus 1.8 all stock but was looking for something that will work with carbs and not FI
when I came across Rays quote,

The OP said nothing about what it was going into my bad for assuming it was for a car. but and I quote "" I'm just looking for a no frills replacement cam that will work well with the 2L heads/ OEM valve sizes that will work with stock springs (if possible). ""

I did not wish to start a controversy and I will remove my post If requested.


Years ago it was figured out on Shoptalk forums that the Web73 was based on yes the early CARB'd 85 hp 411/412. The Web142 is based on the 914/411/412 Djet cam.

For a dual carb'd 1.8L go with the Web 73. If you want to run even cooler get the Raby 9555 version of the Web73 from the Type4 store. Why are you running the smaller 2.0L valves as the 1.8L had bigger valves for the carbs
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 07, 2020 5:29 pm    Post subject: Re: 1.8 T4 replacement cam Reply with quote

Bleyseng wrote:
halfassleatherworks wrote:
I was the one that posted the quote,

I have been looking for something for my 75 bus 1.8 all stock but was looking for something that will work with carbs and not FI
when I came across Rays quote,

The OP said nothing about what it was going into my bad for assuming it was for a car. but and I quote "" I'm just looking for a no frills replacement cam that will work well with the 2L heads/ OEM valve sizes that will work with stock springs (if possible). ""

I did not wish to start a controversy and I will remove my post If requested.


Years ago it was figured out on Shoptalk forums that the Web73 was based on yes the early CARB'd 85 hp 411/412. The Web142 is based on the 914/411/412 Djet cam.

For a dual carb'd 1.8L go with the Web 73. If you want to run even cooler get the Raby 9555 version of the Web73 from the Type4 store. Why are you running the smaller 2.0L valves as the 1.8L had bigger valves for the carbs


No. That is backwards....kind of.

The web 73....is based on the early D-jet cam. The V grind. You can see this in its advertized valve opening and closing points....matched to ....or very close to....what is in the haynes 411/412 book and the 914 manual....for D jet 1.7L. This is why it is sold by Web cam as the factory replacement "good for fuel injection". This is also why it works well with D-jet.

The 1.8 in 914 and 412.....used this exact same cam with L-jet.

However.....bus L-jet has different tuning. If the 142 works well for that....its probably based on the same cam that went into the Euro 85hp, twin carbed, 1.8L 412 engine. And may be what came in the 914 2.0.

I will post the web 73 and advertised stock specs for 411/412/914 1.7L shortly.

The problem is finding advertised specs for the 1.8L 412 cam and the 914 2.0 cam.

Ray

EDIT:

Ok...here are the webcam 142 and 73 specs

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Here is teh Haynes Porsche 914 manual spec list...and does not differentiate between 1.7L, 1.8L and 2.0L...or early to late (not surprising...its Haynes)..but look at the valve opening and closing points....

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



These are the 411/412 cam specs from the Haynes manual: Note that the Web #73 and the Early V-grind are within 1* of each other.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


But.....the shop manuals do not list lift and duration. Likewise......with cams originally made for 914 1.7 and 2.0 or 411/412 1.7....which all ran on D-jet...one also cannot say a cam is a "2.0" cam...just based of lift and duration. It also required the timing and lobe center to be correct.

Ray
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 07, 2020 10:08 pm    Post subject: Re: 1.8 T4 replacement cam Reply with quote

Ray - I bought a NOS cam about 10 years ago and tracked the part number down to the GA motor cam. I took it to Steve at WebCam to see if he could ID the duration etc.. He used a special cam grinders instrument / fixture that it went onto to determine all the timings and duration, overlap etc.. Once we had that we realized it was exactly the same as the 142. I asked Steve where he got the profile for the 142 and he said it came from Porsche/VW in Germany a long time ago, but he didn't recall which 914 engine it was from. Since the timing was the same as the GA cam part number one can conclude it is that grind. I believe from memory that is known as the Z grind because several other 914 enthusiasts had already made the determination that the Z cam was the same as the one coming out of the GA 2L engines. Those engines had higher compression, and even the F-pipes were designed to flow better than the bus ones. I do know that my FI bus runs really well with it except at high altitudes - meaning it stumbles to get running at 11,000 feet ASL.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2020 7:28 am    Post subject: Re: 1.8 T4 replacement cam Reply with quote

SGKent wrote:
Ray - I bought a NOS cam about 10 years ago and tracked the part number down to the GA motor cam. I took it to Steve at WebCam to see if he could ID the duration etc.. He used a special cam grinders instrument / fixture that it went onto to determine all the timings and duration, overlap etc.. Once we had that we realized it was exactly the same as the 142. I asked Steve where he got the profile for the 142 and he said it came from Porsche/VW in Germany a long time ago, but he didn't recall which 914 engine it was from. Since the timing was the same as the GA cam part number one can conclude it is that grind. I believe from memory that is known as the Z grind because several other 914 enthusiasts had already made the determination that the Z cam was the same as the one coming out of the GA 2L engines. Those engines had higher compression, and even the F-pipes were designed to flow better than the bus ones. I do know that my FI bus runs really well with it except at high altitudes - meaning it stumbles to get running at 11,000 feet ASL.



I don't doudt any of this at all!.....

I do not doubt that the 142 is the same as what came in a "Euro" only 2.0L 914 engine. I have no data to tell me otherwise....and its virtually impossible to find factory data like I posted above for the 2.0L 914,Euro cam. Next time someone I know is stripping down their "known" factory 2.0......I borrowing their cam for two hours and mapping it.

However.....tbere is far too much time passed...combined legend....and terminology mixed up in the theory of 914 cams.

The 142 cam....is NOT the "Z" grind. What I posted above out of the 411/412 book.....is the "Z" grind....and is marked as such.

The problem everyone keeps forgetting is that the 914 was not the first type 4 car. It came two years after the 411. The entire engine.....wholesale except for heater boxes.....down to the last part #....went right into the 914. The early 411 had the "V" series cam....listed above in the 411 literature. That was 1968-69.

Everything 1970 and on......used the "Z" grind in 411-1.7L to 1972, 412 -1.7l and 1.8L to 1975...the 1970 and on 914- 1.7L and 1.8L and the 2.0L us version.....all used the "Z" grind. I posted it up above in the last picture.....and its nothing like the Web 142.

So yes.....many 914 people saying their engines used a "Z" grind cam.....and they would be correct. But if they had a Euro 914 2.0L.....they are incorrect.

That cam....the Euro cam used only in the late 412-1.8L twin carb and the 914-Euro 2.0L...is a different cam than all of the vehicles ai just listed.......and may in fact be equivalent to the Web 142. I have no idea....because i have not had my hands on the internals of either the Euro carbed 1.8 or the Euro 914 2.0L.

But the "Z" grind is known. Its factually within 1 of the web 73....in valve event timing....which is critical ti running with all of the 411/412/914 1.7L and US versiin of 2.0L....because they all ran D-jet. Ray
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2020 8:55 am    Post subject: Re: 1.8 T4 replacement cam Reply with quote

how are you converting the published clearance to degrees? Most cams are like .050" lift or full duration etc.. The ramps can be different at different degrees.

The machine Steve used read down to a fraction of a degree off the profile. It wasn't any one the modern cam doctor kits. The cam locked into it, and it looked like something an instrument maker like Mitutoyo or Starrett. maybe something Swiss etc devised in the 1960's. He read each lobe. It was a rather lengthy process.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2020 12:03 pm    Post subject: Re: 1.8 T4 replacement cam Reply with quote

Thought I would add this to the thread - was just going thru some old receipts from about 12 years ago. The Webcam 142 receipt at that time, from their front desk in Riverside itemized the part number, cost etc., grind, and what the grind was from. It lists the 142 as a stock cam specifically for the Porsche 912e. The 912e specs are online at 87 HP @4900 RPM. The 912e is a L-jet engine that was 7.6:1 compression. The wiki indicates that in 1976 Porsche retooled the T4 engine as a 2L specifically for the 912e. Considering that the 1976 VW bus also changed to a 2L engine in 1976 it is likely VW decided to adopt many of the changes into the bus to keep production costs down. From my perspective, what one is doing with the 142 grind is putting a 912e stock cam for L-jet into their bus.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2020 5:19 pm    Post subject: Re: 1.8 T4 replacement cam Reply with quote

Hey guys,

Thanks again for all the feedback and continued advice and council. I think I'm down to a selection between 1 of 2 cams and would appreciate your input. I know Web is the best but for this engine, I just can't swing it with all of the matching components, price wise. I won't be using my stock valve springs with this cam; rather I will order the retainers, keepers, springs, etc. that match the cam... good insurance. I'll be running stock 2L heads that have been gone through (by a good machinist who knows about the valve seat issue and has confirmed the seats are tight and in good shape) and OEM size valves. That said, I figured a mild cam that won't outflow the valves up to 5000 rpm would be in order. I'm thinking either the CB (Eagle) 2199 or Scat C25.

Again, this is for a non-smog, carbureted, bastardized, temporary, 1.8L backup, bus engine to get me by for a couple years, max BUT I want it to be reliable for many years to come. I have no choice but to start out with my Weber Progressive, that is tuned to a stock 1.7 with my homemade, custom, hi-performance, ghetto hot-air-box to keep the runners and carb base warm - I will change to dual 40 IDFs very soon.

My selection is based on lift, duration, valve timing, the fact that others have used it and reported positive results, price and I just can't find an OEM cam. For the future 2.1 Stroker, I WILL use a Webcam. I tried to get it as close to OEM as I could and for this engine, Web is just WAAY out of my range. I'm leaning toward the Eagle since it has less lift and duration than the C25 but would like to hear your thoughts, please. As far as CR, I think the only difference from OEM will be the cam and pistons. I'll be ordering the the 9cc dish AA 93mm pistons and I believe the OEM disch was 11cc?? That should bring the compression ratio up just a hair but I don't know how much yet.

Anyway, without going too off topic, I would very much appreciate your input on these cams. Also, totally open to hearing that I'm off base and to rethink.

Thanks,
Mikey
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2020 5:31 pm    Post subject: Re: 1.8 T4 replacement cam Reply with quote

I don't know really if the progressive is that much of a hold back if you keep the runners warm. I used to build crossflow Fiat 124 racing engines that were in the 1500 - 1600 range and used progressives for their class - FP. They used to turn 10,000 RPM and push the cars to about 140 MPH using those carbs. Of course there were other things that allowed that but the point is that the carb took in that much air. Really I don't think you are going to get the acceleration and top end out of a 1800 that you think you are because it is a bus and not a sports car. I'd be looking for something that peaks no higher than 4500 - 4800 RPM. You won't keep a bus motor together without issues if it is a daily driver for more than a couple three to four years if you flog it all the time.
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MikeyM73
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Location: Napa Valley, CA
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2020 5:39 pm    Post subject: Re: 1.8 T4 replacement cam Reply with quote

Thanks Steve. I was just trying to lay out all the factors that will contribute to fuel flow so folks would know what I have. And I will pretty much baby this engine until the stroker goes in. That one will receive a flogging from time to time but this one is just to get us back on the road and make my wife (more) sane, again... which is the most important part Smile). Just a slightly, warmed over, regular, old, camping bus engine. 45-4800 is fine with me, all I'm looking for is a cam that will give more power than the 1.7 did and push the Popibus with an 091 trans. I figure with good tuning, mild cam, extractor exhaust, and a Flamethrower it should give close to the HP and TQ of a 2L until the stroker goes in. Thoughts?

OOHH.. I almost forgot - should I just buy a new cam gear or drill out the rivets and use my old one? I was just going to buy new and make sure I got shallow head bolts that will clear the oil pump. But if there's a better way please enlighten me to that and also the clearance I will need between the pump and gear.

Thanks,
Newb Mikey.
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'73 Pop-top Westy, found sitting in a field for 10+ years. 1.7 block/rods, 93mm 1.8L AA pistons & cylinders, new 1.8L balanced rods, 2L heads, Scat C25 cam & lubalobe lifters, Dual HPMX40s, R2C filbers w/ Outerwears pre-filters, Pertronix Flamethrower III, tubular exhaust w/ OEM heater boxes, averages about 16-18mpg around town, about 19-22ish on the highway.
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Wildthings
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2020 9:34 pm    Post subject: Re: 1.8 T4 replacement cam Reply with quote

The cam I ran for 250K miles which has no identifying marks on it, is very close to a Web 73, maybe with a bit less overlap. It was always a bit noisy slapping the valves open pretty fast, but quieted up after 150K miles or so once it had worn a bit. I think I just had the stock valve springs for a '74 1800 Type 4 car engine, but really don't remember any more. It certainly moved the car down the road much more quickly than a stock cam, and before the advent of ethanol laced fuel gave very good gas mileage.
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