1.8 T4 replacement cam

[SGKent]

[MikeyM73]

Understood. Thanks Steve. I have no illusions of grandeur with my expectations of what a tad hotter cam will do... it IS a 1.8 and not a 440, after all. That said, I guess what I was getting at is I would like the best cam, given the OEM valve sizes (and my price range for this temporary engine), that will provide the most low-end torque that will move the bus with the 091 trans as well as (or better than) the old, worn out 1.7 did with the 002 trans. I think I said that right.

Thanks,
Mikey
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'73 Pop-top Westy, found sitting in a field for 10+ years, cleaned up, rebuilt furniture, reloved. Original 1.7 block/fully polished crank, 93mm 1.8L balanced AA pistons & cylinders, new 1.8L balanced rods, HAM 42/36 heads, Scat C25 cam & lubalobe lifters, Dual HPMX40s, R2C filters w/ Outerwears pre-filters, functioning thermostat & flaps, Pertronix Flamethrower III, 4-1 exhaust w/ Cherry Bomb 2" turbo muffler & OEM heater boxes, averages about 19-22ish on the highway.

[SGKent]

[MikeyM73]

Thanks Steve, good info. So with all your experience in the V-Dub world, what are your thoughts on the difference of pushing our bus with the slightly warmed over 1.8/091 trans combo with good exhaust, carburetion, and ignition vs. the worn out, tired 1.7/002 combo? I think it was Wildthings that had a 1.8/091 combo with a mile cam that he liked alot but I'm not sure what cam he was running. Just want to have the same power feeling with a little lower RPM range and not as much struggle. Hell, maybe that will come in the permanent engine .

Thx,
Mikey
_________________
'73 Pop-top Westy, found sitting in a field for 10+ years, cleaned up, rebuilt furniture, reloved. Original 1.7 block/fully polished crank, 93mm 1.8L balanced AA pistons & cylinders, new 1.8L balanced rods, HAM 42/36 heads, Scat C25 cam & lubalobe lifters, Dual HPMX40s, R2C filters w/ Outerwears pre-filters, functioning thermostat & flaps, Pertronix Flamethrower III, 4-1 exhaust w/ Cherry Bomb 2" turbo muffler & OEM heater boxes, averages about 19-22ish on the highway.

[SGKent]

[orwell84]

I have run 2 different engine builds, one using the web 142 and another with the web 73. Both were 1800 engines with an automatic transmission. Both used a monza style exhaust system which is really not the best. The web 142 engine ran with dual Weber 34 ict's, but old heads, one cylinder had lower compression because of a poor seal with the head.

The second build had new 2 liter heads from Len Hoffman and were a much better seal. I ran a Weber Progressive out of the box with a power valve mod that improved off idle stumble.

Because of the differences between builds it was hard to evaluate the differences in cam performance. Both engines ran quite well and neither cam gave me issues with erratic idle or made me feel like I was being robbed of low end torque or kicked in the pants at higher rpm. I was also worried about how these cams would work with the autotrans but it pretty much behaved in the usual way. I had good head temps with the Web 73, but it was the first time I actually had a CHT gauge in my bus. On the highway, it was pretty easy to get my bus up to 75, but a slow crawl to 80 if at all. I seemed to remember my old engine with the stock cam, dual ICT's and collector style exhaust being faster when it was tuned up. I think my single Weber and monza exhaust were really not a winning combination for getting the good out of the Web 73. I liked the single progressive a lot for a fair weather, convert your dumpster on wheels to an actual moving vehicle and go somewhere kind of carb. I put 5,000 miles on this build before tearing it down to make something better. Last summer, I took my kids on a 700 mile round trip to Maine with this engine with no issues. There were a few highway flogs, but mostly it was an easy going 55-65 on two lane state highways. This is how I would choose to drive my bus even if it had a monster engine.

If I were building a spare to get me by with while I build the engine of my dreams, that was still a quality build, I wouldn't waste money trying to "cam up" if I were on a budget. Build it the best you can and focus on getting the basics dead on. I think the cumulative effect of getting all these things right has a bigger impact on overall performance than dropping in cam x or cam y.

[MikeyM73]

Thanks very much. Very good info, indeed.

Scott - I'm sorry, I missed your question. The reason I'm running the smaller valves is because I have "newish" 2L stock heads in good shape but my 1.7 heads on the 1.7 engine dropped a valve seat so they're trashed. So I'm using the 1.7 crank/rods with 93MM pistons to create a 1.8L with 2L heads.

I guess I have the choice to build a 2L instead of a 1.8 but this engine will be temporary until a permanent 2L or 2109 with 42/36 HAM heads, is built. So the goal would be to keep the 2L crank and rods for use with that build (if I decide not to stroke it) while we're running the 1.8.

I really like Webcam, their selection, and support but they are not cheap and for this engine, I need to stay in budget. The main thing I'm concerned about is going too big on the cam as far as lift and duration goes. The C25 is .430 lift / 272 duration. to me it looks like a larger cam (coming from the V8 world) but you guys know FAR more than I in this area. I have read on mulitple sites that the C25 on a T4 bus engine is a decent cam that provides a good spread of power from off idle to around 4500. Also, the idle may/may not be a bit lopey but that's fine - I can work on that - so if you guys don't see any issues with it, I think I'll give it a shot. All this while going from a 1.7/002 combo to a warmed over 1.8/091 combo. BUT if it the Eagle/CB 2199 cam (268* / .378) makes more sense, I'll go that route. In my mind, I'm thinking smaller is better since this going into a bus and I want reliability.

Sorry for kind of going all over the place on this; I just want to make sure I get it right and choose the best cam for a typical camping Westy.

Thanks
Mikey

Thanks.
_________________
'73 Pop-top Westy, found sitting in a field for 10+ years, cleaned up, rebuilt furniture, reloved. Original 1.7 block/fully polished crank, 93mm 1.8L balanced AA pistons & cylinders, new 1.8L balanced rods, HAM 42/36 heads, Scat C25 cam & lubalobe lifters, Dual HPMX40s, R2C filters w/ Outerwears pre-filters, functioning thermostat & flaps, Pertronix Flamethrower III, 4-1 exhaust w/ Cherry Bomb 2" turbo muffler & OEM heater boxes, averages about 19-22ish on the highway.

[SGKent]

if it is a budget build go with the cam that costs less. Stop trying to put so much energy into choosing a cam. REALLY. My preference would be something between a stock cam and a Web 142 if there was one. The stock bus cam is too detuned but it doesn't matter because they aren't available. I don't like hydraulic cams so the stock bus hydraulic cam isn't an option I would choose. With the smaller and shorter stroke engine you will have to beat it harder to get up those hills. Unless you do some porting, get dual carbs, and get a really free flowing exhaust you aren't going to get the full performance from a more aggressive cam anyway. And the more you beat it the shorter its life will be. It is a brick on wheels.
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“Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin

[MikeyM73]

Steve, very true, thanks. I do have a better exhaust - 4-1 Empi quiet pack that actually made a pretty big difference on performance and cooling. Dual carbs are going in in about 6 -12 months. Will be installed on this engine and moved over to the permanent engine when it's done.

Thx,
Mikey
_________________
'73 Pop-top Westy, found sitting in a field for 10+ years, cleaned up, rebuilt furniture, reloved. Original 1.7 block/fully polished crank, 93mm 1.8L balanced AA pistons & cylinders, new 1.8L balanced rods, HAM 42/36 heads, Scat C25 cam & lubalobe lifters, Dual HPMX40s, R2C filters w/ Outerwears pre-filters, functioning thermostat & flaps, Pertronix Flamethrower III, 4-1 exhaust w/ Cherry Bomb 2" turbo muffler & OEM heater boxes, averages about 19-22ish on the highway.

[SGKent]

sigh - read this book and then we can discuss it better.

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“Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin

[MikeyM73]

sigh - more reading? I feel like I'm back in school... guess I kindof am . Looks like a good book.

By the way - just read that FBI article you referenced. Gnarly stuff, man.
_________________
'73 Pop-top Westy, found sitting in a field for 10+ years, cleaned up, rebuilt furniture, reloved. Original 1.7 block/fully polished crank, 93mm 1.8L balanced AA pistons & cylinders, new 1.8L balanced rods, HAM 42/36 heads, Scat C25 cam & lubalobe lifters, Dual HPMX40s, R2C filters w/ Outerwears pre-filters, functioning thermostat & flaps, Pertronix Flamethrower III, 4-1 exhaust w/ Cherry Bomb 2" turbo muffler & OEM heater boxes, averages about 19-22ish on the highway.

[SGKent]

[MikeyM73]

EXACTLY! Thank you... All that, I totally get. That's why I'm so stuck on this dam cam thing. I realize that both the C25 and CB/Eagle 2199 are small cams - more than stock but still small. Seriously.. between the C25 and and the CB 2199 there's a 4* difference in duration and a .052 difference in lift; the C25 being the larger of the 2. C25 is .430/272, CB / Eagle is .378 / 268 - "exact replacent for factory cam" so they say... although I realize this is most likely based off a Porsche spec, etc.

In my mind, the Eagle would be a "better" choice simply because it's smaller and closer to stock but larger than the OEM bus cam and would be easier on the valve train. But this is where I don't know if I'm splitting hairs or not. If the C25 will allow more air/fuel in the cylinder and not adversely affect CHTs and still keep the power down lower just off idle where I need it, then why not? Would the small difference in lift and duration actually benefit with more air/fuel or hinder reliability and cause higher CHTs?

Although a small difference, this is my dilemma. Oh.. and the "larger" C25 is cheaper by about 60 bucks which would almost pay for lifters
_________________
'73 Pop-top Westy, found sitting in a field for 10+ years, cleaned up, rebuilt furniture, reloved. Original 1.7 block/fully polished crank, 93mm 1.8L balanced AA pistons & cylinders, new 1.8L balanced rods, HAM 42/36 heads, Scat C25 cam & lubalobe lifters, Dual HPMX40s, R2C filters w/ Outerwears pre-filters, functioning thermostat & flaps, Pertronix Flamethrower III, 4-1 exhaust w/ Cherry Bomb 2" turbo muffler & OEM heater boxes, averages about 19-22ish on the highway.

[raygreenwood]

[SGKent]

a single lobe cam has set timing that is determined by the grind. The air moving between the carb and back of the intake valve is a column that moves back and forth like a kid on a swing. By changing the timing you change when to allow that column in. The longer the runners the slower the oscillation. At high RPM the column moves back and forth faster and changes pitch like doubling on a flute. You want the valve to open just as the moving column of air rushes at it, rather than open when the column is moving away from the valve. The same is true in the exhaust. The pressure wave goes back and forth. You want the valve to open just as the wave leaves so there is a low pressure area behind the valve when it opens. That helps scavenge the cylinder, making room for more fuel and air on the next charge. Like shooting at a duck, the faster it moves the more you have to lead it. So the faster the engine goes the more the cam has to lead the timing of the pressure wave. The longer duration and advanced timing cams work great at higher RPMs. They work not as well at lower RPMs. In a bus you will be spending most of your time around 2000 - 4000 RPM. Choose accordingly. PEAK HP is tyically a marriage between RPM and torque. The Webcam 142 peaks in my bus around 4600 RPM according to my butt dyno but it still pulls to 5400 RPM. The specs that were given earlier showed that the cam it was based on peaked at 4800 - 4900 RPM which agrees with that. I don't know why someone would need more RPM in a bus. In other words, why shoot farther ahead of the duck than you need to? Why push on the swing against yourself unless you want to stop the child from swinging? It is not a light weight sports car or dune buggy.
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“Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin

[MikeyM73]

Thanks guys, that helps a a lot.

Mikey
_________________
'73 Pop-top Westy, found sitting in a field for 10+ years, cleaned up, rebuilt furniture, reloved. Original 1.7 block/fully polished crank, 93mm 1.8L balanced AA pistons & cylinders, new 1.8L balanced rods, HAM 42/36 heads, Scat C25 cam & lubalobe lifters, Dual HPMX40s, R2C filters w/ Outerwears pre-filters, functioning thermostat & flaps, Pertronix Flamethrower III, 4-1 exhaust w/ Cherry Bomb 2" turbo muffler & OEM heater boxes, averages about 19-22ish on the highway.

[SGKent]

Was looking at the Webcam site today. Am building this 2L engine and deciding what to do - the cylinders will be new, the case new, and the heads new, the exhaust new, and the harness new. The lifters will be elephant feet and the rockers are already machined by Tabari. The cam has about 2200 miles on it so it is for practical purposes new, and the crank is std. A new one is too expensive. The rods have been resized and balanced, and look fine. I am debating whether to put a new web 142 in it and sell this one and the lifters or not. There is no reason to other than almost everything else is brand new. New is about $500 because new lifters are needed. The ones that came out were marked so they can be reused just fine. I am wondering what a used webcam 142 and lifters might be worth to offset the cost of new ones.

That said - the stock bus hydraulic cam is about 20 degrees less duration than the webcam 142, so it is a real upgrade over a stock bus cam for those who wonder how much difference it is over a stock bus cam.
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“Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin

[SGKent]

bump
_________________
“Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin

[MikeyM73]

hey all,

What are the best engine bearings to use and a good place to get them?

Thx,
Mikey
_________________
'73 Pop-top Westy, found sitting in a field for 10+ years, cleaned up, rebuilt furniture, reloved. Original 1.7 block/fully polished crank, 93mm 1.8L balanced AA pistons & cylinders, new 1.8L balanced rods, HAM 42/36 heads, Scat C25 cam & lubalobe lifters, Dual HPMX40s, R2C filters w/ Outerwears pre-filters, functioning thermostat & flaps, Pertronix Flamethrower III, 4-1 exhaust w/ Cherry Bomb 2" turbo muffler & OEM heater boxes, averages about 19-22ish on the highway.

[SGKent]