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Earliest brown faced speedo?
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johnshenry Premium Member
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2020 6:41 pm    Post subject: Earliest brown faced speedo? Reply with quote

Having discussions with a hardcore early VW enthusiast/friend about early brown faced speedos. He has a May '49 split he is restoring (Well, that convertible 2 seater kind of split) and is looking for date coded correct parts for it. We recently found an April '49 brown faced speedo mounted in a Feb '49 brown pod. Seems a very rare part. I have a Sept '49 speedo with a "full circle" brown face also.

So when was the first brown faced speedo used? I we have seen many grey/blue faced ones in standards '49 and even '50, but it is observed that VW always used the nicest/newest parts in the deluxes, 'verts, etc, and kept using the older version in the std until they were used up, or for spare parts.

Anyone have data/images, etc on when the first brown face speedo came out. This April one clearly pre dates the first ivory bakelite pod...
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2020 7:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Earliest brown faced speedo? Reply with quote

According to (the late) JT Garwood this change, occurred at Ch. No. 1-0 106 636, June 1949- the graphics of the speedo face was re designed and a new clock, the same size and with the same graphics, as the new speedo was added to the ever growing standard-equipment list on deluxes - These were optional on the standard models (page 109 - in Car of the Century)
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2020 8:13 pm    Post subject: Re: Earliest brown faced speedo? Reply with quote

here we go with the Garwood references again.

that book is full of more incorrect information, than correct information.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2020 5:55 am    Post subject: Re: Earliest brown faced speedo? Reply with quote

ZENVWDRIVER wrote:
According to (the late) JT Garwood this change, occurred at Ch. No. 1-0 106 636, June 1949- the graphics of the speedo face was re designed and a new clock, the same size and with the same graphics, as the new speedo was added to the ever growing standard-equipment list on deluxes - These were optional on the standard models (page 109 - in Car of the Century)


Could be, but John and his friend having a discussion about a 2 seater convertible. The car itself was made between Feb or march 49 and finished in may... So what is any book is incorrect for this car as they were all equiped with the deluxe trim that came on the market end of june as known as the type 11 deluxe with alu grooved trim and bumpers, ivory pods, sliding seats,... And the chassis nur is smaller as 1-0 106 636 Wink
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2020 10:24 am    Post subject: Re: Earliest brown faced speedo? Reply with quote

sled wrote:
here we go with the Garwood references again.

that book is full of more incorrect information, than correct information.


… thank you for your positive input, sir - When you can prove the incorrect information, i'll make that change in my copies of Car of the Century - I eagerly await your PROOVEN corrections - many thanks.
z
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5/50, pastel green 11G - SOLD
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11/4/52, black Zwitter - SOLD to my little bro.
1954 Porsche, pre A, with VW 36 horse- SOLD
1/54, black 11C Beetle - TRADED
2/55 Iceland green Beetle, on a 1965 pan
3/55 113 Beetle, stratos silver
1955 Messerschmitt KR175 - SOLD, sadly
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1962 SO33, with SO 42 interior
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2020 10:55 am    Post subject: Re: Earliest brown faced speedo? Reply with quote

peter schepens wrote:
ZENVWDRIVER wrote:
According to (the late) JT Garwood this change, occurred at Ch. No. 1-0 106 636, June 1949- the graphics of the speedo face was re designed and a new clock, the same size and with the same graphics, as the new speedo was added to the ever growing standard-equipment list on deluxes - These were optional on the standard models (page 109 - in Car of the Century)


Could be, but John and his friend having a discussion about a 2 seater convertible. The car itself was made between Feb or march 49 and finished in may... So what is any book is incorrect for this car as they were all equiped with the deluxe trim that came on the market end of june as known as the type 11 deluxe with aluminum grooved trim and bumpers, ivory pods, sliding seats,... And the chassis nur is smaller as 1-0 106 636 Wink


… appreciate the added information - I, definitely am not as well versed on this particular subject, as (maybe) you are, Mr. Schepens - I look forward to reading your resolution (if there is one) - the info, I supplied was for regular production and not for this special-bodied 2 seat vert - Again, thanks for the clarity... z
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5/50, pastel green 11G - SOLD
8/50, gray 11A Beetle
6/52, pastel green 11C - SOLD
11/4/52, black Zwitter - SOLD to my little bro.
1954 Porsche, pre A, with VW 36 horse- SOLD
1/54, black 11C Beetle - TRADED
2/55 Iceland green Beetle, on a 1965 pan
3/55 113 Beetle, stratos silver
1955 Messerschmitt KR175 - SOLD, sadly
1960 single cab
1962 SO33, with SO 42 interior
9/63 Pacific blue, Ghia
'87 Toyota MR2
'91 NSX- wishful thinking

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peter schepens
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2020 1:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Earliest brown faced speedo? Reply with quote

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I did not wanted to offend anyone in my reply... Here I uploaded the picts on the first production model Hebmuller. It is hard to see what speedo is in it but with all the trim, bumpers, dash pods, clock .. it is for me the most plausible answer that the speedo was also the later ( june ) deluxe model as seen on later cars. The earlyer one with VW logo in the upper part I think was not used on the Hebmuller. To bad, so litle period picts are known where the speedo is visible to see details. To be complete, I am since long time in contact with the owner of that Heb and helping him out with the search for details and history. Thanks Peter

If you like Hebmuller, take a look here Wink
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2020 3:30 pm    Post subject: Re: Earliest brown faced speedo? Reply with quote

… The new brown-dial clock is very visible in your pictures and IF this application follows suite with the new June of '49 models, then I'll assume the new speedometer face was also used. .. I am the rookie in this conversation and (might) know the least, but a certain amount of logic could also be used... I would have been in the dark, had I not familiarized myself with the new June of '49 features from Mr. Garwood - wish he was around to defend himself, concerning his findings, but we'll all have a chance to join him in eternity - So, make your impressions on the VW community now.

I know, you-all are seeking a more concrete answer - so i'll sit back, with Mr Garwood and enjoy the thread...

… off subject - this was my 1948 P15 - Plymouth's coupe convertible, with front seat, only = Heb-like, IMHO...
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

wish I still had it...
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5/50, pastel green 11G - SOLD
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6/52, pastel green 11C - SOLD
11/4/52, black Zwitter - SOLD to my little bro.
1954 Porsche, pre A, with VW 36 horse- SOLD
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2/55 Iceland green Beetle, on a 1965 pan
3/55 113 Beetle, stratos silver
1955 Messerschmitt KR175 - SOLD, sadly
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2020 5:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Earliest brown faced speedo? Reply with quote

First production Heb aside, then why would we have a brown faced speedo, with a VW part number dated April 1949?? What was that used in? Not a Heb, and not a deluxe split????
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2020 10:29 pm    Post subject: Re: Earliest brown faced speedo? Reply with quote

johnshenry wrote:
First production Heb aside, then why would we have a brown faced speedo, with a VW part number dated April 1949?? What was that used in? Not a Heb, and not a deluxe split????


John, The deluxe was also in development early 49 as on the Geneva autoshow in march 49, a deluxe was shown next to the Hebmuller, rolling chassis with 3 spoke deluxe steering wheel and a Tuscher rollback
Cut away chassis
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Hebmuller type 14a and on the right under a canvas, the deluxe, in the doorwindow from the heb is the white steering wheel visible.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Tuscher Rollback
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Hebmuller type 14a with deluxe visible, the tuscher . Quality is not that good but clearly a deluxe trim on the sedan and the heb.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Note: The heb and the deluxe had already the small logo hubcaps.
So an april speedo was around.
John, can you send me a pict of the speedo to be sure we talk about the same brown facial?
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2020 6:45 am    Post subject: Re: Earliest brown faced speedo? Reply with quote

I'll post a picture of it when I am back in my shop. Interesting about the March '40 autoshow pictures, thanks for sharing those....
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2020 7:24 am    Post subject: Re: Earliest brown faced speedo? Reply with quote

It's been common knowledge for years that he Garland books are chock full of mistakes. They should be marked "for entertainment only".

As far as the brown faced April speedo, It may be original but could it also be possible that it was reworked at some point and got a new face plate?

I have always wondered how VW supplied the bodies to Hebmuller and Karmann. We know they supplied bodies with no roof but what else was supplied with the shell when it was delivered? Was it on a pan with an engine and a couple of boxes full of all of the parts needed to finish the car once the coachwork was done? Or did they supply just the body, or body with pan and possibly engine and then supply the rest of the parts once the coachwork was done? Supplying the shell alone would have been easier for the coach builder as they wouldn't have to store the pan and all of the other parts while the coachwork was being done.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2020 9:44 am    Post subject: Re: Earliest brown faced speedo? Reply with quote

About Hebs, The body went from VW to Hebmuller factory by train, No roof on it, no front valance on it and heater channel bottom only spotwelded with 8 spots.
Pict from VW where you see probably a Karmann body( sema in the back)
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


THe chassis went also on train from vw to the factory. Rolling chassis, engine included. Parts were send in a different load. As Hebmuller was anoyed that the steering shafts, wheel and tube were shipped not with the chassis. This was hard to move them from train loading dock to the storage hall. It is seen on pict that the workers sitting in front of the chassis, steering by hand on the steering house. Note on the convoy. Plain black wheels, still need to be painted in second color.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

No front valance visible here
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Most parts went from VW to Heb but parts that vw bought out house, were also shipped from the supplier to Heb. No proof of that but whould make sence . I think on Hella, bosch, Swf, ... to name a few.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

storage of chassis in the back of the hall. Pict from 1950.
I do not know how long it took from shipping a body to a finished Heb. I do konw that some chassis stood for over a 2 months in storage. For example, Heb nr 5 was finished end on 21 june, the chassis left Vw in april . it is not clear if the body went with the chassis as they had no nrs on it . Body nr was stamped at Hebmuller as far as I know. Chassisnr was stamped at VW.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2020 12:24 pm    Post subject: Re: Earliest brown faced speedo? Reply with quote

Cool. Thanks Peter. I had seen the LIFE magazine pictures, the top one, before but the other ones I have not.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2020 4:24 pm    Post subject: Re: Earliest brown faced speedo? Reply with quote

splitjunkie wrote:
It's been common knowledge for years that he Garland books are chock full of mistakes. They should be marked "for entertainment only".


… I am now finding out about this not-so-common, "common knowledge" - that some errors exist - unfortunately, we less knowledgeable folks can't differentiate between what is 'commonly' known as incorrect and what is actually correct - I am sure you are accurate in your assessment of Mr. Garwood's wonderful publication and I thank you very much for your assessment...

... Again, unfortunately - since I don't know the difference, in what is correct and what is not - this being the only publication, I have, on the subjects - i'll continue making errors - which I like - for those who profess to know it all - really know less...

… some shoot their mouths off about Garwood's inaccuracies, but don't know the correct information or don't express it - don't prove their harsh thoughts. So we can make the changes to our Garwood publications, as needed...

LOL, all of this VW-stuff is for 'entertainment only'...

… Thanks again - a definite student - Z
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6/52, pastel green 11C - SOLD
11/4/52, black Zwitter - SOLD to my little bro.
1954 Porsche, pre A, with VW 36 horse- SOLD
1/54, black 11C Beetle - TRADED
2/55 Iceland green Beetle, on a 1965 pan
3/55 113 Beetle, stratos silver
1955 Messerschmitt KR175 - SOLD, sadly
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2020 5:15 pm    Post subject: Re: Earliest brown faced speedo? Reply with quote

… saw this on youtube - has the newer style brown-dial speedo and matching clock - early one? - Dunno.

1949 Volkswagen Hebmόller Cabriolet at Cars ... - YouTube
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5/50, pastel green 11G - SOLD
8/50, gray 11A Beetle
6/52, pastel green 11C - SOLD
11/4/52, black Zwitter - SOLD to my little bro.
1954 Porsche, pre A, with VW 36 horse- SOLD
1/54, black 11C Beetle - TRADED
2/55 Iceland green Beetle, on a 1965 pan
3/55 113 Beetle, stratos silver
1955 Messerschmitt KR175 - SOLD, sadly
1960 single cab
1962 SO33, with SO 42 interior
9/63 Pacific blue, Ghia
'87 Toyota MR2
'91 NSX- wishful thinking

All super-heroes, wear a MASK
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2020 6:18 pm    Post subject: Re: Earliest brown faced speedo? Reply with quote

I agree Garwood is very inaccurate. As for how to know what is right, you just have to find as many sources as you can and make your own conclusion. Garwood is in conflict with many other sources, such as Progressive Refinements and other publications.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2020 7:33 pm    Post subject: Re: Earliest brown faced speedo? Reply with quote

johnshenry wrote:
I agree Garwood is very inaccurate. As for how to know what is right, you just have to find as many sources as you can and make your own conclusion. Garwood is in conflict with many other sources, such as Progressive Refinements and other publications.


Oh, I KNOW you are correct, in your assessment, John - I really don't have enough interest in very early VWs to have MANY sources, on the subject - I already have Garwood's volumes and if somma' that info is incorrect - so be it - i'll bet most of it is not incorrect - i'm learning, from some very knowledgeable enthusiasts.,.

… would love getting a copy of Refinements, but never saw it for sale in my 55 year VW-hobby-life.

We are also big fossil collectors and have many sources for identifying specimens found - there is the ' Progressive Refinements' of the fossil-world too - located a copy, from 1943 on eBay for $900 - has everything one would want to know - but I don't wanna' do that again and Garwood's volumes will suffice - i'll continue to use his info and if i'm incorrect, so be it - i'm sure you all will correct me... thanks again...


z
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5/50, pastel green 11G - SOLD
8/50, gray 11A Beetle
6/52, pastel green 11C - SOLD
11/4/52, black Zwitter - SOLD to my little bro.
1954 Porsche, pre A, with VW 36 horse- SOLD
1/54, black 11C Beetle - TRADED
2/55 Iceland green Beetle, on a 1965 pan
3/55 113 Beetle, stratos silver
1955 Messerschmitt KR175 - SOLD, sadly
1960 single cab
1962 SO33, with SO 42 interior
9/63 Pacific blue, Ghia
'87 Toyota MR2
'91 NSX- wishful thinking

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2020 9:45 pm    Post subject: Re: Earliest brown faced speedo? Reply with quote

ZENVWDRIVER wrote:
… would love getting a copy of Refinements, but never saw it for sale in my 55 year VW-hobby-life.


Free PDFs:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/manuals/progressive_refinements/
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2020 4:23 pm    Post subject: Re: Earliest brown faced speedo? Reply with quote

johnshenry wrote:
Having discussions with a hardcore early VW enthusiast/friend about early brown faced speedos. He has a May '49 split he is restoring (Well, that convertible 2 seater kind of split) and is looking for date coded correct parts for it. We recently found an April '49 brown faced speedo mounted in a Feb '49 brown pod. Seems a very rare part. I have a Sept '49 speedo with a "full circle" brown face also.

So when was the first brown faced speedo used? I we have seen many grey/blue faced ones in standards '49 and even '50, but it is observed that VW always used the nicest/newest parts in the deluxes, 'verts, etc, and kept using the older version in the std until they were used up, or for spare parts.

Anyone have data/images, etc on when the first brown face speedo came out. This April one clearly pre dates the first ivory bakelite pod...


So, on JT's behalf, we wonder what the earliest brown-dial speedo is, on a Hebmuller?
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5/50, pastel green 11G - SOLD
8/50, gray 11A Beetle
6/52, pastel green 11C - SOLD
11/4/52, black Zwitter - SOLD to my little bro.
1954 Porsche, pre A, with VW 36 horse- SOLD
1/54, black 11C Beetle - TRADED
2/55 Iceland green Beetle, on a 1965 pan
3/55 113 Beetle, stratos silver
1955 Messerschmitt KR175 - SOLD, sadly
1960 single cab
1962 SO33, with SO 42 interior
9/63 Pacific blue, Ghia
'87 Toyota MR2
'91 NSX- wishful thinking

All super-heroes, wear a MASK
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