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white74westy
Samba Member
Joined: May 02, 2011
Posts: 777
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 Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 3:36 pm Post subject: Re: 1800cc Type 4 engine rebuild - 74 westy |
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| Abscate wrote: |
| orwell84 wrote: |
| Abscate wrote: |
Damn, I missed this one.
Have you thought about ( sorry) opening the case and doing the mod to the oil drain plug case stud to prevent the saddle breaking problem?
Case open is the time, of course. Sorry about that. |
Do you have a link for that? |
I’ll dig it up. It might be raygreenwood in the type 4 forum, or in one of his microdots.
That will give you a good start, and then you can find someone technical to really discuss it. |
Hey Abscate,
Happy to see you checking in! I found the article you were speaking of:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=645213
Very clever and very well done! I'll not be going that route. |
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white74westy
Samba Member
Joined: May 02, 2011
Posts: 777
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| Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 3:39 pm Post subject: Re: 1800cc Type 4 engine rebuild - 74 westy |
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| orwell84 wrote: |
| SGKent wrote: |
| or just own a torque wrench and use it. |
There's that too. I do the same when changing the oil on my Subaru. |
Call me old fashioned.
Now that I have said that, I'm sure to have jinxed myself.
Ray's modification is well done, just not sure it's for me. |
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white74westy
Samba Member
Joined: May 02, 2011
Posts: 777
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| Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 3:44 pm Post subject: Re: 1800cc Type 4 engine rebuild - 74 westy |
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| orwell84 wrote: |
| Clatter wrote: |
In the end, after measuring as best you can,
The final test of rod fit will be how they feel.
Once assembled, torqued and lubed,
They should all fell the same,
And fall with a sort of slowed/dampened glide if you lift the small end and let go of it.
Any with bad measurements should stand out in the different way they feel moving on the journal.
If that makes any sense..
In the end, it's the same with the mains as well.
If you have it right, there's a certain nice feel that gives you a good feeling about it.. |
The feel part of it...that can be tough for newbies. When something is obviously wrong, sure. My last build felt good like that even with a bent crank...But...I never tried the crank all by itself torqued in the case. I think that it’s a good idea to test the cam and crank by themselves in the case. With the short block all assembled, there is probably too much mass to feel the “rightness” of one part. The rod thing...all falling slowly the same schmoozy way under their own weight, I did get that one. It’s a beautiful thing. |
I agree on all fronts. I suppose it's like anything. One begins to develop a sense for what feels right and wrong. You're right, the measurements don't hurt, but at some point one has to begin to rely upon his or her intuition. |
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SGKent 
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 4:41 pm Post subject: Re: 1800cc Type 4 engine rebuild - 74 westy |
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| white74westy wrote: |
| orwell84 wrote: |
| Clatter wrote: |
In the end, after measuring as best you can,
The final test of rod fit will be how they feel.
Once assembled, torqued and lubed,
They should all fell the same,
And fall with a sort of slowed/dampened glide if you lift the small end and let go of it.
Any with bad measurements should stand out in the different way they feel moving on the journal.
If that makes any sense..
In the end, it's the same with the mains as well.
If you have it right, there's a certain nice feel that gives you a good feeling about it.. |
The feel part of it...that can be tough for newbies. When something is obviously wrong, sure. My last build felt good like that even with a bent crank...But...I never tried the crank all by itself torqued in the case. I think that it’s a good idea to test the cam and crank by themselves in the case. With the short block all assembled, there is probably too much mass to feel the “rightness” of one part. The rod thing...all falling slowly the same schmoozy way under their own weight, I did get that one. It’s a beautiful thing. |
I agree on all fronts. I suppose it's like anything. One begins to develop a sense for what feels right and wrong. You're right, the measurements don't hurt, but at some point one has to begin to rely upon his or her intuition. |
don't go there. That is why so many buses died with T4 syndrome. Or why there are so many people asking how to make a T4 bus run right with a progressive carb.
_________________
“Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21512
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 7:46 pm Post subject: Re: 1800cc Type 4 engine rebuild - 74 westy |
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| SGKent wrote: |
| white74westy wrote: |
| orwell84 wrote: |
| Clatter wrote: |
In the end, after measuring as best you can,
The final test of rod fit will be how they feel.
Once assembled, torqued and lubed,
They should all fell the same,
And fall with a sort of slowed/dampened glide if you lift the small end and let go of it.
Any with bad measurements should stand out in the different way they feel moving on the journal.
If that makes any sense..
In the end, it's the same with the mains as well.
If you have it right, there's a certain nice feel that gives you a good feeling about it.. |
The feel part of it...that can be tough for newbies. When something is obviously wrong, sure. My last build felt good like that even with a bent crank...But...I never tried the crank all by itself torqued in the case. I think that it’s a good idea to test the cam and crank by themselves in the case. With the short block all assembled, there is probably too much mass to feel the “rightness” of one part. The rod thing...all falling slowly the same schmoozy way under their own weight, I did get that one. It’s a beautiful thing. |
I agree on all fronts. I suppose it's like anything. One begins to develop a sense for what feels right and wrong. You're right, the measurements don't hurt, but at some point one has to begin to rely upon his or her intuition. |
don't go there. That is why so many buses died with T4 syndrome. Or why there are so many people asking how to make a T4 bus run right with a progressive carb. |
Yes....don't go there...."intuition" I mean (and I think SGKent did too).
With the strainer bolt....use a torque wrench dammit!
If you are the type who must use the "choke up on the ratchet and trust your hand/intuition method"....the modification I listed in that thread is exactly the kind of insurance needed for owners like you. 
NO...I am not suggesting to use more than 9 foot pounds.
However.....if you are caught somewhere in the middle of nowhere without a torque wrench....or its Sunday oil change time and yours is broken....or you do not have one..........or you are like 75% of all torque wrench owners who stupidly leave their wrench turned up anywhere over 20 ft lbs lbs when they store it.....which means its out of whack typically by a minimum of 5 ft lbs...period......then this mod will allow you to "accidentally" apply 20 ft pounds or more....with no damage to the case.
Yes...it will distort/deform the oil pickup bell....but you can get home with that.
Yes...if you do not turn your torque wrench down to below 20 ft lbs when you store...in about 2 months it WILL be out of calibration. I worked for a company for years ....that sold, serviced and calibrated over a thousand high quality torque wrenches a month.
So....if thats you....then the 9 ft lbs thing may screw you even with a torque wrench. Ray |
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SGKent
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 7:54 pm Post subject: Re: 1800cc Type 4 engine rebuild - 74 westy |
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I zero my torque wrench when I am done. and if it seems off check it quickly with a beam wrench. Team Torque is where you send it if it needs service.
_________________
“Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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white74westy
Samba Member
Joined: May 02, 2011
Posts: 777
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| Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2020 6:13 am Post subject: Re: 1800cc Type 4 engine rebuild - 74 westy |
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| SGKent wrote: |
| white74westy wrote: |
| orwell84 wrote: |
| Clatter wrote: |
In the end, after measuring as best you can,
The final test of rod fit will be how they feel.
Once assembled, torqued and lubed,
They should all fell the same,
And fall with a sort of slowed/dampened glide if you lift the small end and let go of it.
Any with bad measurements should stand out in the different way they feel moving on the journal.
If that makes any sense..
In the end, it's the same with the mains as well.
If you have it right, there's a certain nice feel that gives you a good feeling about it.. |
The feel part of it...that can be tough for newbies. When something is obviously wrong, sure. My last build felt good like that even with a bent crank...But...I never tried the crank all by itself torqued in the case. I think that it’s a good idea to test the cam and crank by themselves in the case. With the short block all assembled, there is probably too much mass to feel the “rightness” of one part. The rod thing...all falling slowly the same schmoozy way under their own weight, I did get that one. It’s a beautiful thing. |
I agree on all fronts. I suppose it's like anything. One begins to develop a sense for what feels right and wrong. You're right, the measurements don't hurt, but at some point one has to begin to rely upon his or her intuition. |
don't go there. That is why so many buses died with T4 syndrome. Or why there are so many people asking how to make a T4 bus run right with a progressive carb. |
Awww...come on Steve. I haven't got to that part of the build yet, but you mean you won't want to help me with my Weber?
I'm just playing around. There'll be no progressive for me.
I think what I was saying may have been misunderstood. I wasn't speaking about the strainer bolt at all! I was merely stating that after all the measurements are made, tolerances are checked, and found to be acceptable, that there is "happy place" for the way things feel. More than just a tactile sense.
| SGKent wrote: |
| I zero my torque wrench when I am done.Smile and if it seems off check it quickly with a beam wrench. Team Torque is where you send it if it needs service. |
I thought this was common practice and that it was SOP. |
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white74westy
Samba Member
Joined: May 02, 2011
Posts: 777
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| Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2020 6:51 am Post subject: Re: 1800cc Type 4 engine rebuild - 74 westy |
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| raygreenwood wrote: |
Yes....don't go there...."intuition" I mean (and I think SGKent did too).
With the strainer bolt....use a torque wrench dammit!
If you are the type who must use the "choke up on the ratchet and trust your hand/intuition method"....the modification I listed in that thread is exactly the kind of insurance needed for owners like you.
NO...I am not suggesting to use more than 9 foot pounds.
However.....if you are caught somewhere in the middle of nowhere without a torque wrench....or its Sunday oil change time and yours is broken....or you do not have one..........or you are like 75% of all torque wrench owners who stupidly leave their wrench turned up anywhere over 20 ft lbs lbs when they store it.....which means its out of whack typically by a minimum of 5 ft lbs...period......then this mod will allow you to "accidentally" apply 20 ft pounds or more....with no damage to the case.
Yes...it will distort/deform the oil pickup bell....but you can get home with that.
Yes...if you do not turn your torque wrench down to below 20 ft lbs when you store...in about 2 months it WILL be out of calibration. I worked for a company for years ....that sold, serviced and calibrated over a thousand high quality torque wrenches a month.
So....if thats you....then the 9 ft lbs thing may screw you even with a torque wrench. Ray |
To begin, I do use a torque wrench...every single time dammit!
I'm not sure how this thread could have been construed as anything other than a build that payed particularly close attention to the precise parameters laid forth by the engineers at VW.
Last night when I first read your response, my initial reaction was to get all up in arms. Didn't want to respond in that frame of mind. It had been an extremely long day, I was just about to go to bed, and would probably have said some absolutely, needlessly, silly things.
I responded to Steve above. Hopefully that will help clarify my position on the intuitive parts of my thought processes. Also, I want to make absolutely clear, just as I stated above, that I think your modification is amazing; really well thought out and executed! I'm just not going to be using it on this build. As far as this build is concerned, my intention is to attempt to approach this from a beginners perspective, and also so I have my own documentation. Perhaps others will benefit from it in the future. That is part of the reason that I linked your modification in the thread, so that people might 1) be able to understand precisely what Abscate was referencing and 2) be able to do it if they so choose.
I've owned this bus going on 24 years now. I have never claimed to be an expert, but I feel as if I have a fair understanding of the VW systems. I enjoy learning and hope to continue to do so, as long as I'm drawing breath. I'm open to others' perspectives and willing to consider anybody's learned experience, as it may be another completely correct way to do the same thing differently.
I hope that you'll continue to contribute as and where you see fit.  |
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SGKent
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2020 9:38 am Post subject: Re: 1800cc Type 4 engine rebuild - 74 westy |
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using a torque wrench is like the word "Common Sense." There is no such thing as "common sense." Almost everything we do is learned. We used to teach basic logic and math but those areas in education are now philosophy classes. Meaning, that the social situation determines the outcome of the decision rather than logic. Example: If a white man and a black man each have two apples, and each man has two children, how many apples can the men give to their children? The logical answer is each man can give two apples, and that each child can have one apple each. Today the correct answer is the white man should give his apples to the black man for reparations so the black man will have 4 to give his children, and the white children none. I say that because it was an actual logic question on a test one of our IT students had in his "Logic" class at Cal State Sacramento. So using a torque wrench might seem like common sense to everyone here who has owned a bus for a long time, but when someone says "follow your intuition," that is a dangerous area for a mechanic to go down unless he / she has done that specific job many times before. No one was picking on you.
_________________
“Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21512
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2020 11:31 am Post subject: Re: 1800cc Type 4 engine rebuild - 74 westy |
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| SGKent wrote: |
| using a torque wrench is like the word "Common Sense." There is no such thing as "common sense." Almost everything we do is learned. We used to teach basic logic and math but those areas in education are now philosophy classes. Meaning, that the social situation determines the outcome of the decision rather than logic. Example: If a white man and a black man each have two apples, and each man has two children, how many apples can the men give to their children? The logical answer is each man can give two apples, and that each child can have one apple each. Today the correct answer is the white man should give his apples to the black man for reparations so the black man will have 4 to give his children, and the white children none. I say that because it was an actual logic question on a test one of our IT students had in his "Logic" class at Cal State Sacramento. So using a torque wrench might seem like common sense to everyone here who has owned a bus for a long time, but when someone says "follow your intuition," that is a dangerous area for a mechanic to go down unless he / she has done that specific job many times before. No one was picking on you. |
^^^^ yep...totally agree! and...no we were not picking on you. Bear in mind....about 75% of what i might post is for the benefit of others lurking or looking on!
Ray |
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white74westy
Samba Member
Joined: May 02, 2011
Posts: 777
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| Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2020 11:07 am Post subject: Re: 1800cc Type 4 engine rebuild - 74 westy |
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| SGKent wrote: |
| using a torque wrench is like the word "Common Sense." There is no such thing as "common sense." Almost everything we do is learned. We used to teach basic logic and math but those areas in education are now philosophy classes. |
Funny you should bring this up. Last week when I was mocking up the crank, I had my eldest come and help. In fact, she was treated to a lesson on proper torque wrench procedures, from beginning to end. She did very well. It also spilled into an additional learning experience, later in the week that centered around learning "new skills" similar to the what she'd learned in the garage. I love to see the look of satisfaction come over someone's face, once they've learned something new! Not sure if she'll ever use a torque wrench in the future, but the really cool thing about it is the fact that it is no longer considered something to be frightened of. To many, the unknown is often the most frightening thing to overcome. |
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white74westy
Samba Member
Joined: May 02, 2011
Posts: 777
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| Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2020 11:13 am Post subject: Re: 1800cc Type 4 engine rebuild - 74 westy |
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| raygreenwood wrote: |
yep...totally agree! and...no we were not picking on you. Bear in mind....about 75% of what i might post is for the benefit of others lurking or looking on!
Ray |
Yeah, no worries! As I said, it was late, I was tired, and skimmed your post. My mind picked up almost solely on the "owners like you" bit.
I appreciate your contributions. In fact I was just about to go over the double thrust portion of mocking up the case, when I found the latest set-back, mentioned below. |
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SGKent
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2020 11:28 am Post subject: Re: 1800cc Type 4 engine rebuild - 74 westy |
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| white74westy wrote: |
| SGKent wrote: |
| using a torque wrench is like the word "Common Sense." There is no such thing as "common sense." Almost everything we do is learned. We used to teach basic logic and math but those areas in education are now philosophy classes. |
Funny you should bring this up. Last week when I was mocking up the crank, I had my eldest come and help. In fact, she was treated to a lesson on proper torque wrench procedures, from beginning to end. She did very well. It also spilled into an additional learning experience, later in the week that centered around learning "new skills" similar to the what she'd learned in the garage. I love to see the look of satisfaction come over someone's face, once they've learned something new! Not sure if she'll ever use a torque wrench in the future, but the really cool thing about it is the fact that it is no longer considered something to be frightened of. To many, the unknown is often the most frightening thing to overcome. |
Sometimes we learn things that years later we find out why. Someday maybe she will be watching a gorilla use and air gun to put on her wheels, and she will say - "would you please use a torque wrench on those. I don't want any stripped wheels studs or warped wheels."
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Abscate
Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014
Posts: 22641
Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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| Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2020 11:33 am Post subject: Re: 1800cc Type 4 engine rebuild - 74 westy |
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Not trying to be too contrarian but....
You won’t accurately measure 9 foot pounds with a 150 ft lb full scale torque wrench
You can accurately do it with a 50 ft lb on torque wrench, assuming it’s calibrated and maintained but.....if you know how to do this you probably don’t need it to begin with.
Obvious simple solution is to roll car in its side and now use a 1 foot extension bar and 1 gallon of water for your fridge to make an 8 ft lb lever
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white74westy
Samba Member
Joined: May 02, 2011
Posts: 777
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| Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2020 11:36 am Post subject: Re: 1800cc Type 4 engine rebuild - 74 westy |
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| Abscate wrote: |
Not trying to be too contrarian but....
You won’t accurately measure 9 foot pounds with a 150 ft lb full scale torque wrench
You can accurately do it with a 50 ft lb on torque wrench, assuming it’s calibrated and maintained but.....if you know how to do this you probably don’t need it to begin with.
Obvious simple solution is to roll car in its side and now use a 1 foot extension bar and 1 gallon of water for your fridge to make an 8 ft lb lever |
You been looking in my garage again Abscate? Noticed the sideways looking vehicle, did ya?
Inch pound torque wrench for the strainer bolt. |
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Abscate
Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014
Posts: 22641
Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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| Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2020 11:45 am Post subject: Re: 1800cc Type 4 engine rebuild - 74 westy |
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white74westy
Samba Member
Joined: May 02, 2011
Posts: 777
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| Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2020 11:55 am Post subject: Re: 1800cc Type 4 engine rebuild - 74 westy |
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Alright...minor setback today. I was about to begin setting up the double thrust bearings for the cam when I noticed a couple of problematic areas.
Albeit very minor, there is definitely some pitting in the surface of the cam. It was detectable when I ran my fingernail over it. This in turn lead me to inspect my followers too:
This is the worst of the offenders. I have already contacted Web Cam and will be sending them all back in the hopes of having them resurfaced, hardened and re-coated. I thought I had paid particularly close attention to ensuring that all the lifters and the cam had been oiled up and separated from the elements, after the initial clean. Apparently not good enough!  
Interestingly enough, I found some weird things about the cam bearings I had squirreled away. I have a set of NOS Karl Schmidt (Kolbenschmidt) as well as an old set of NOS Metal Leve bearings:
The Metal Leve bearings, I know I've owned since 1998, and I'm not entirely sure about the KS. Also, not sure why I'd never noticed it before, but the center line of the KS bearings, where the oiling holes sit are lower than rest. Also of note is the difference in the width of the non-thrust bearings in the ML bearing kit. The bearing that would normally sit in the middle of the case is about 1/3 smaller than the originals I pulled out of the case, as well as the NOS KS bearings. Just found it interesting. Won't be using any of them, other than the thrust bearing.
Guess I'll have to be patient and wait to get the parts back and in good working order before I can go any further. In the grand scheme of things, not that big a deal. I really wanted to have all of this done before the heads got back. Ah well..."the best laid plans plans of mice and men" |
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orwell84
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Joined: May 14, 2007
Posts: 2536
Location: Plattsburgh, New York
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| Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2020 8:51 am Post subject: Re: 1800cc Type 4 engine rebuild - 74 westy |
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Those old bearings might end up fitting better than anything new you might buy. The double thrust cam thing ended up being harder than I thought, but it could just be the bearing set I have. I think it's kind of a crapshoot; the bearing set you get, how your case was machined. After all that sanding and measuring for the center main, I think I am all out of love for bearing whittling. I hope things go more smoothly for you.
I can't remember what cam you are running.
Good luck with your build. |
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white74westy
Samba Member
Joined: May 02, 2011
Posts: 777
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| Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2020 2:55 pm Post subject: Re: 1800cc Type 4 engine rebuild - 74 westy |
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| orwell84 wrote: |
Those old bearings might end up fitting better than anything new you might buy. The double thrust cam thing ended up being harder than I thought, but it could just be the bearing set I have. I think it's kind of a crapshoot; the bearing set you get, how your case was machined. After all that sanding and measuring for the center main, I think I am all out of love for bearing whittling. I hope things go more smoothly for you.
I can't remember what cam you are running.
Good luck with your build. |
Raby 9590 cam. PM sent. |
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white74westy
Samba Member
Joined: May 02, 2011
Posts: 777
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| Posted: Sun Aug 02, 2020 3:56 pm Post subject: Re: 1800cc Type 4 engine rebuild - 74 westy |
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Still kind of in a holding pattern. I'm waiting to hear back from Web Cam on an ETA for the cam and followers. I received a voicemail from Faith, that it would be no problem to have the cam redone. It will be repaired and then sent back for heat treat. She wasn't sure about the lifters, as they were actually Scat lube a lobes. That was interesting to me, as I bought the whole set from Jake's store, many years ago. I thought they were the same lifters that Web cam offered...learn something new everyday. Anhow, she was going to try and have them resurfaced. We shall see.
In the meantime, I took posession of my new heads this past week. Len sent over a set of Blueprint specials:
They are truly beautiful!!! I had Len make me a set with the same size valves I had on the prior engine. 42mm intakes and 36mm exhaust valves. They'll be coupled with the DRLA36's to help them breathe. The combustion chambers and the under side of the exhaust valves were ceramic coated. Really excited to get cracking on putting this thing back together, once the camshaft gets back from Web!
This week, while I'm waiting for the cam to come back, I've got to spend a little time messing with the deck height a little more. When I mocked it up last time, I noticed that the #1 piston appeared a little proud of the cylinder:
We'll see what we come up with once I have the new cylinder shims in place. Either way, I believe the deck height is going to be pretty tight on this build. Based upon the maching done by Len, his calculations should put us somewhere between 7.63:1 and 7.7:1. |
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